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Reevaluating the Top Players of History Lists

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Old
02-28-2016, 02:45 PM
  #1
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Reevaluating the Top Players of History Lists

So some of the lists are now a bit outdated in relation to more revelations people have dug up on older players, international only players, active players who have really advanced their resume's, etc.

The oldest positional list is for the defensemen, which was finalized in 2012 and compiled over the year before. Obviously A LOT has happened in hockey over the past 4+ years that would affect the standing of the list.

I thought it would be to do a fairly causal look at players who are on the list now and should move up (more positive revelations) or down (damning revelations or active players bumping them from list).

Here is the final list from 2011-12:

Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time
RankNo.PlayerHeightWeightBornDiedCareerNationality
14Bobby Orr6'0"1991948 1966-1979Canada
22Doug Harvey5'11"190192419891947-1969Canada
377Raymond Bourque6'0"2191960 1979-2001Canada
42Eddie Shore5'11"194190219851924-1944Canada
55Nicklas Lidström6'2"1901970 1991-PresentSweden
65Denis Potvin6'0"2051953 1973-1988Canada
74Leonard "Red" Kelly6'0"1951927 1947-1967Canada
82Viacheslav Fetisov6'1"2151958 1974-1998Russia
919Larry Robinson6'3"2201951 1972-1992Canada
1024Chris Chelios6'1"1901962 1983-2010USA
1122Brad Park6'0"1901948 1968-1985Canada
127Francis "King" Clancy5'7"155190319861921-1937Canada
137Paul Coffey6'0"2001961 1980-2001Canada
143Pierre Pilote5'10"1781931 1955-1969Canada
152Sprague Cleghorn5'10"190189019561910-1928Canada
1617Earl Seibert6'2'198191119901931-1946Canada
177Tim Horton5'10'180193019741949-1974Canada
182Al MacInnis6'2"2041963 1981-2004Canada
194Scott Stevens6'2"2151964 1982-2004Canada
2044Chris Pronger6'6'2201974 1994-PresentCanada
214Bill Gadsby6'0'1801927 1946-1966Canada
2221Börje Salming6'1"1931951 1970-1993Sweden
232Brian Leetch6'0"1851968 1987-2006USA
245Aubrey "Dit" Clapper6'2"195190719781927-1947Canada
256Valeri Vasiliev5'11"1871949 1966-1984Russia
26-T2Mark Howe5'11"1851955 1973-1995USA
26-T11Bill Quackenbush5'11"190192219991942-1956Canada
2818Serge Savard6'3"2101946 1966-1983Canada
295Rod Langway6'3"2181957 1977-1993USA
308Eddie Gerard5'9"168189019371913-1923Canada
312Jack Stewart5'10"190191719831938-1952Canada
325Guy Lapointe6'0"2051948 1968-1984Canada
3327Scott Niedermayer6'1"1941973 1992-2010Canada
343Marcel Pronovost6'0"1901930 1950-1970Canada
352Lionel Conacher6'2"195190119541925-1937Canada
36 William "Hod" Stuart6'0"190187919071902-1907Canada
373Ivan "Ching" Johnson5'11"210189819791926-1938Canada
382Jacques Laperričre6'2"1901941 1962-1974Canada
397Alexei Kasatonov6'1"2151959 1976–1997Russia
403Jean-Claude Tremblay5'11170193919941960-1979Canada
41 Ernest "Moose" Johnson5'11185189619631905-1931Canada
4233Zdeno Chára6'9"2551977 1998-PresentSlovakia
435Ebbie Goodfellow6'0"175190719851929-1943Canada
444Rob Blake6'4"2201969 1990-2010Canada
453Emile "Butch" Bouchard6'2"2051919 1941-1956Canada
462Carl Brewer5'9"180193820011958-1980Canada
471Albert "Babe" Siebert5'10"182190419391925-1939Canada
48 Georges "Buck" Boucher5'9169189619601915-1932Canada
4917Jan Suchý5'81691944 1963-1983Czech
5055Larry Murphy6'2"2101961 1980-2001Canada
5117Ken Reardon5'10"180192120081940-1950Canada
5210Tom Johnson6'0"180192820071950-1965Canada
53 Lester Patrick6'1"180188319601903-1927Canada
542Art Coulter5'11"185190920001932-1942Canada
5524Doug Wilson6'1"1871957 1977-1993Canada
562Sylvio Mantha5'10"178190219741923-1936Canada
572Harry Cameron5'10"155189019531912-1926Canada
5860František Pospíšil6'0"1761944 1961-1978Czech
5926Allan Stanley6'1"1701926 1948-1969Canada
60 Harvey Pulford5'11"200187519401893-1908Canada



Active players that I think easily move into the top 60:


Duncan Keith
-Since the original list was done he's added another Norris (also had finishes of 6 and 7), a Conn Smythe, won 2 more Stanley Cups, and a gold medal in 2014.

Erik Karlsson
-He's added a 2nd Norris (also finishes of 7 and 18) and is the clear cut favorite to add a 3rd in his best season to date, put up incredible stats, won a Silver medal in 2014 where he was named best defensemen of the Olympic's and made the post tournament all star team. Also took over as the captain of Ottawa prior to 2014. His Norris record with a win would be 1, 1, 1, 7, 18. Also would be a 3 time 1st team AS.

Shea Weber
-Added 2 more top 4 Norris finishes (3 and 4) as well as a pair of 2nd team AS selections. Also played extremely well in 2014 Winter Games where he won gold with Canada. Now owns a Norris record of 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 7, 8.


Active players who have a chance:


Drew Doughty
-Added a 2nd team AS, Norris finishes of 2, 6, 9. Also another Stanley Cup ring where he played at a Conn Smythe level. Won a gold medal with Canada in 2014, playing extremely well. If you factor in this year's likely Norris finalist finish (2nd or 3rd) he's probably in the top 60.


Active players who should move up list:


Zdeno Chara
-Has added another 1st Team AS, 2nd place Norris (and a 5th). He was probably underrated at 42 the first time anyway. He needs to move up considerably.


Players on original list who likely deserve a bump:


František Pospíšil
-The European top player list lifted him up, slightly ahead of Kasatonov in an all time sense. A more in depth study seems to back up the fact that he was underrated the first go around at 58.

Jan Suchy
-See Pospisil above.


There are numerous other players on the list who could slide slightly in either direction with new discussion and revelations from new bio's and discoveries. Feel free to add names that you'd like to advocate for!

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02-28-2016, 03:06 PM
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I think that if you had the same group of voters, you would more or less get very similar results.

Not really sure what the 2 retired Czech Dmen did in the last several years that would bump them up.

Personally Zubov should have been on that list and maybe some reflection since he has been out of the NHL would help his cause.....

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02-28-2016, 03:13 PM
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I would bump Karlsson in the "maybe" pile, until he actually wins that 3rd Norris. (See Chara, who some voters said they were giving zero credit to for the season that was active when this list was made).

Other than that, I agree with you. I can't really see a reason to take Doug Wilson over Shea Weber anymore, and I think Keith is above Weber.

In the original project, Pospisil suffered by becoming available too late - I believe that he actually made it on his first round of eligibility. But yes, I think Suchy and Pospisil being much closer to Kasatonov (or even above him like in the non-NHL Europeans project) would be proper.

Keep in mind, however, that the defensemen project had some voters who didn't want to include Europeans like Suchy who didn't play against NHLers, which was different from the Non-NHL Europeans project. For that reason, I highly doubt Suchy passes Kasatonov even with the same group of voters.

______

The one thing about the defensemen project that always stuck out as an eyesore to me was Lionel Conacher above clearly superior contemporaries in Ching Johnson and Ebbie Goodfellow, based on what seemed like recognition for what Conacher did in sports other than hockey. This has been corrected in recent ATDs, so I would imagine it would be corrected if and when we ever re-do this list.

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02-28-2016, 03:19 PM
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I think it would be more fun for this forum to instead to one of the following rankings:


1. Highest "peak" in hockey (of course - we'd have to come up with a compromise/criteria in terms of what "peak" is)


2. Best Playoff performers

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02-28-2016, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I think that if you had the same group of voters, you would more or less get very similar results.

Not really sure what the 2 retired Czech Dmen did in the last several years that would bump them up.

Personally Zubov should have been on that list and maybe some reflection since he has been out of the NHL would help his cause.....
Their ascent has to do with the European project that recently was completed. The general consensus was that Suchy and Pospisil were on or even above Kasatonov's career value. So it would make sense for both to move up in the top 60.

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02-28-2016, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
Their ascent has to do with the European project that recently was completed. The general consensus was that Suchy and Pospisil were on or even above Kasatonov's career value. So it would make sense for both to move up in the top 60.
A couple of things here going off memory the recent project on Europeans had half the number of voters than the top Dman list.

The recent project also was a real emphasis on non NHL play, although I only peeked at it now and then but a guy like Radulov didn't even come up (he was 102nd on the aggregate list appearing on only 2 lists) which is very strange but sometimes guys still playing are hard to judge.

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02-28-2016, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would bump Karlsson in the "maybe" pile, until he actually wins that 3rd Norris. (See Chara, who some voters said they were giving zero credit to for the season that was active when this list was made).

Other than that, I agree with you. I can't really see a reason to take Doug Wilson over Shea Weber anymore, and I think Keith is above Weber.

In the original project, Pospisil suffered by becoming available too late - I believe that he actually made it on his first round of eligibility. But yes, I think Suchy and Pospisil being much closer to Kasatonov (or even above him like in the non-NHL Europeans project) would be proper.

Keep in mind, however, that the defensemen project had some voters who didn't want to include Europeans like Suchy who didn't play against NHLers, which was different from the Non-NHL Europeans project. For that reason, I highly doubt Suchy passes Kasatonov even with the same group of voters.

______

The one thing about the defensemen project that always stuck out as an eyesore to me was Lionel Conacher above clearly superior contemporaries in Ching Johnson and Ebbie Goodfellow, based on what seemed like recognition for what Conacher did in sports other than hockey. This has been corrected in recent ATDs, so I would imagine it would be corrected if and when we ever re-do this list.

I think Karlsson has been so dominant that he likely still gets a top 3 finish if he didn't play another game. Could be wrong, but he's been that good in terms of offensive production, not just among D, but every F as well (leading entire league in assists by a decent margin right now). I give him credit for what he's done to this point (63 games in now i believe) in conjunction with his other accolades.

I don't see what most anyone in the 50-60 range would have on Karlsson if matching up their careers, especially looking at peak value. Larry Murphy doesn't beat him IMO, considering the vast difference in regular season value, and Murphy's postseason numbers are largely the product of being on the powerhouse Pens and Wings, where i don't even think he was the best D on those teams. Murphy was never the best D in the NHL. Karlsson has done so 3 times (counting this year of course). So we're not talking a flash in the pan. Just one example, IMHO.

Everything else, i agree with TDMM, especially the points regarding many voters not being familiar or open regarding the Euros. I took me until my 2nd ATD to really get a good handle on many of them. Novices are definitely prone to falling into the trap of being overly critical on pre NHL Russians/Czechs/Swedes etc.

And Conacher would definitely fall a number of spots. We agree there.

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02-28-2016, 03:57 PM
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Is it officially a suggestion to revisit the lists?
I don't quite agree to the suggestion of revisiting anything EXCEPT active players.

Of course, not deciding anything.

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02-28-2016, 03:58 PM
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Is it officially a suggestion to revisit the lists?
I don't quite agree to the suggestion of revisiting anything EXCEPT active players.
As long as someone who isn't me admins, I would like to revisit the lists every 10 years or so (in theory, who knows who will even be posting here then).

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02-28-2016, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
As long as someone who isn't me admins, I would like to revisit the lists every 10 years or so (in theory, who knows who will even be posting here then).
Fair enough.
You've given a lot

But yeah, just plugging the new players.

This said, I agree that, of all the lists, the D-Men is probably the one that warrants the most a second look, due to uncertainty in how to treat some players. I'm a bit ashamed of my take on Dit Clapper, if anything.

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02-28-2016, 07:25 PM
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I would try to have Bourque 2nd.

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02-28-2016, 07:26 PM
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I would try to have Bourque 2nd.
Potvin I would bump ahead of Lidstrom too.

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02-28-2016, 07:33 PM
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Since I haven't participated I understand my opinion has little weight, but I agree with revisiting lists every 10 years or so.

I also think there are some other lists that could be made that would generate more participants than the European Project did (which I understand was a problem despite the great work done by many especially Theokritos), namely re-doing a Top 100 players of all-time (the list was done when the overall knowledge was more primitive), doing a Top X Playoffs players of all-time, and doing a Top 30 coaches of all-time.

I would be open to admin one of those, but again since I didn't take part in those lists I might not be the best man for the job.

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02-28-2016, 07:58 PM
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Clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by 87and71 View Post
Their ascent has to do with the European project that recently was completed. The general consensus was that Suchy and Pospisil were on or even above Kasatonov's career value. So it would make sense for both to move up in the top 60.
Kasatonov's career value in Europe is similar to Suchy and Pospisil, his NHL career value differentiates things.

Addition: Also ATD value has little or nothing to do with hockey talent or skill especiacially when provenance and era/position representation rules are factored in.

As for players rising or dropping. amongst retired players, red Kelly might drop since as the years go by more data is found about him playing forward while in Detroit. This may add overall value in a top 110 player list but subtract value in the top defencemen list.


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02-28-2016, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Kasatonov's career value in Europe is similar to Suchy and Pospisil, his NHL career value differentiates things.

Addition: Also ATD value has little or nothing to do with hockey talent or skill especiacially when provenance and era/position representation rules are factored in.

As for players rising or dropping. amongst retired players, red Kelly might drop since as the years go by more data is found about him playing forward while in Detroit. This may add overall value in a top 110 player list but subtract value in the top defencemen list.
Woah, I must have missed this.I know he played forward for 1/4 of a season while in Detroit, but did we find information that says he played even more than that?

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02-28-2016, 10:05 PM
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Woah, I must have missed this.I know he played forward for 1/4 of a season while in Detroit, but did we find information that says he played even more than that?
You bet. He was moved up to play forward with some frequency, like in the spring of 1950 for the Playoffs to fill in for an injured Gordie Howe(Marcel Pronovost then called up from the USHL to fill in for Kelly). At that time the sportswriters voted for the All Stars, Kelly creating a bit of a conundrum for them as he'd spent a considerable amount of time up-front which detracted from his outstanding defensive game...yet... at the same time... brilliant as a forward. So do you vote for the guy as a Defenceman or as a Forward? As he'd split his time back & forth, he actually lost out in receiving as many votes as he would have had he played entire seasons on Defence or even entire seasons as a Forward. He'd been a Forward at St.Mikes as well. Cut by the Majors, cut by the Buzzers (Jr.B) and by the Midget Team before being given a second chance & earning a spot on the 3rd line of the St.Mikes Midget team. Toronto didnt even bother putting him on their protected list they thought so little of him.


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02-28-2016, 10:14 PM
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Not a popular opinion but I thought Robinson and Lidstrom were both better then Bourque.

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02-28-2016, 10:31 PM
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You bet. He was moved up to play forward with some frequency, like in the spring of 1950 for the Playoffs to fill in for an injured Gordie Howe(Marcel Pronovost then called up from the USHL to fill in for Kelly). At that time the sportswriters voted for the All Stars, Kelly creating a bit of a conundrum for them as he'd spent a considerable amount of time up-front which detracted from his outstanding defensive game...yet... at the same time... brilliant as a forward. So do you vote for the guy as a Defenceman or as a Forward? As he'd split his time back & forth, he actually lost out in receiving as many votes as he would have had he played entire seasons on Defence or even entire seasons as a Forward. He'd been a Forward at St.Mikes as well. Cut by the Majors, cut by the Buzzers (Jr.B) and by the Midget Team before being given a second chance & earning a spot on the 3rd line of the St.Mikes Midget team. Toronto didnt even bother putting him on their protected list they thought so little of him.
In which thread and discussion was this information originally revealed?

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02-28-2016, 10:37 PM
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In which thread and discussion was this information originally revealed?
No idea if anyone else posted what I just posted for the first time here as I dont participate in the ATD's.

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02-29-2016, 06:11 AM
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Various Threads

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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
In which thread and discussion was this information originally revealed?
Various threads, newspaper archives sticky other on topic threads.

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02-29-2016, 06:18 AM
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Just seems weird, I thought this would be a bomb (assuming the info significantly altered Kelly's value as a defenseman) in the hockey history circle on hfboards and I haven't heard about it.

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02-29-2016, 10:39 AM
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Potvin I would bump ahead of Lidstrom too.
Lidstrom should move up, not down. He should be 2nd, or 3rd behind Bourque depending on personal preference. One has to totally dismiss how much the composition of the league has changed to rank Harvey and Shore over him. It makes no sense.

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02-29-2016, 10:46 AM
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As for players rising or dropping. amongst retired players, red Kelly might drop since as the years go by more data is found about him playing forward while in Detroit. This may add overall value in a top 110 player list but subtract value in the top defencemen list.
Wouldn't this make Harvey appear less impressive as well? I mean, Kelly was his main competition for the Norris early on and if there was added confusion over Kelly playing D or forward...

Harvey's competition was already very lean in comparison with later eras.

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02-29-2016, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Various threads, newspaper archives sticky other on topic threads.
Ive read snippets here & there about Red Kelly being moved to forward whenever Detroit ran into trouble up-front initially due to injuries then tactically, strategically. My sources in this case exclusively books.... just doing a quick 2 minute google search... I get back several pages with links including highlighted passages from some of those books. The inf is out there. Readily & freely available.

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02-29-2016, 11:32 AM
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No

Quote:
Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Wouldn't this make Harvey appear less impressive as well? I mean, Kelly was his main competition for the Norris early on and if there was added confusion over Kelly playing D or forward...

Harvey's competition was already very lean in comparison with later eras.
No, would make Harvey more impressive as a defenceman.

Harvey played virtually all his youth hockey as a center. Moved back to defence in his last year of high school. Combined with military service in WWII, this delayed his entry into the NHL.

Once established as a defenceman, Harvey was an anchor that stabilized a team defensively - playing both sides, while quarterbacking the team offensively. Not to be moved or tampered with. How other teams used their players did not change what Harvey brought to a team.

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