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Old
08-13-2012, 01:11 PM
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The rules of hockey attributed to James Creighton go back to his McGill days, mid/late 1870s. That they lacked sufficiency to curb violence or fisticuffs is rather evident.
... indeed. Im actually related to James Creighton on my Mothers side who hails from Halifax, cousins, including his niece Helen Creighton (1899-1989) who spent her life collecting folk songs & ghost stories, investigating the paranormal all over the east-coast from her home base in Dartmouth. Professor, Member of the Order of Canada, Neanderthal Woman. That James Creighton would omit rules governing acts of violence in crafting the rules for hockey & therefore have a stronger strain of the Neanderthal genome coursing through his veins in light of, well, my own propensities & character traits, not to mention the rest of the bizarre characters swingin from my family tree is hardly surprising.

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Some scientists believes that our species might have conquered theirs, suggested we're the more violent ones, and yet they get tagged for it.
... yes, and this battle still rages within us all Iain. I fear I received much of James' strands when sometimes the entire World just turns blood red before my very eyes. Its all in the DNA.

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08-13-2012, 01:11 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
McGill was part of the first indoor game. Never claimed that hockey was invented at McGill. McGill was one of the early contributors. Kindly retract your comment.
I was responding to this:

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Let's go back to the origins of the game of hockey, 1875 - 1915 the first two generations and contrast it to football.

Initially hockey was mainly played by sons of privilege - McGill.
You indicated the origins of the game of hockey began in 1875, a clear reference to the McGill game.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
All disputes shall be settled by the umpires, or in the event of their disagreement, by the Referee.

All disputes covers violence and the fighting subgroup in a general fashion as opposed to the later modifications calling for specific penalties.
Sure, it also covers disputes such as the late starting of games, whether a player should be allowed to be substituted, illegal equipment, etc, etc. It's a general "the officials govern the game" rule.

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08-13-2012, 01:13 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
That James Creighton would omit rules governing acts of violence in crafting the rules for hockey
He didn't omit rules governing acts of violence. Slashing, checking from behind and tripping were all called out specifically in the rules, among others.

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08-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
He didn't omit rules governing acts of violence. Slashing, checking from behind and tripping were all called out specifically in the rules, among others.
... well sure, the penalties for which would be a mere finger wagging & tsk tsk even if attempting a full-on decapitation or vivisection with a Mic Mac Hockey Stick.

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08-13-2012, 01:28 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post

And? The claim was that frequent stoppages in the NFL allow players time to cool off, so there are no explosions of violence as in the NHL.

So why, then, do NHL players not "cool their spirits" when sitting on the bench? If a forward plays a 45-second shift, followed by 2:15 of sitting on the bench, why does he not cool down?


Rules. Exactly. The rules of international hockey and the rules of the NCAA do not allow fighting. So the claim that hockey players cannot help it is untenable; when there are strong rules against something, they don't do it.
There are explosions of violence. Haynesworth stomp NFL vs Simon stomp NHL.NFL play takes well under ten seconds NHLers play 45 second shifts. More spontaneous contact and re-action. NFL football allows players to set up devestating opportunities for retribution since at the snap only one offensive player is in motion.
Why fight when a crackback or blindside hit is more effective. Constant motion during play precludes this in the NHL.

Fighting is a growing problem in the KHL, was a selling point in British hockey, and is increasing in other international leagues. NCAA does have occasional fights. Function of the rules to an extent but coaching and recruitment are more important factors. NCAA coaches have a high rate of job security. So improving the gate with fights is not a factor. Also the feeder system for the NCAA - prep schools, high schools, midget AAA or eligible junior leagues are scouted from the perspective that fighting is a negative.

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08-13-2012, 01:37 PM
  #356
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Read Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I was responding to this:


You indicated the origins of the game of hockey began in 1875, a clear reference to the McGill game.


Sure, it also covers disputes such as the late starting of games, whether a player should be allowed to be substituted, illegal equipment, etc, etc. It's a general "the officials govern the game" rule.
No, I made a clear distinction the origins of hockey, followed by the first two generations of recorded games 1875-1915.

It is a general unforeseeable events rule common in sports and law.

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08-13-2012, 06:45 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
There are explosions of violence.
Explosions of violence as in the NHL. That is, equivalent to those in the NHL, which occur are with much greater frequency than the NFL.

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08-13-2012, 06:50 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
No, I made a clear distinction the origins of hockey, followed by the first two generations of recorded games 1875-1915.
No such distinction was made. You said "Initially hockey was mainly played by sons of privilege - McGill" and "Let's go back to the origins of the game of hockey, 1875 - 1915 the first two generations." I don't see any other way of reading that, and if you meant something different more precision was needed. A comma is not a clear distinction.

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08-13-2012, 07:30 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... yes, and this battle still rages within us all Iain. I fear I received much of James' strands when sometimes the entire World just turns blood red before my very eyes. Its all in the DNA.
I have to argue this my friend. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but violence is a socially learned behavior.

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08-13-2012, 08:15 PM
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
No such distinction was made. You said "Initially hockey was mainly played by sons of privilege - McGill" and "Let's go back to the origins of the game of hockey, 1875 - 1915 the first two generations." I don't see any other way of reading that, and if you meant something different more precision was needed. A comma is not a clear distinction.
Now you are reversing the order of the sentences. Initial order of the sentences as they appear in post #342:
__________________________________________________ ______
Let's go back to the origins of the game of hockey, 1875 - 1915 the first two generations and contrast it to football.

Initially hockey was mainly played by sons of privilege - McGill. Fathers were jurists, judges, businessmen, etc. Same is true for McGill football and the origins of football going back to 1874:
__________________________________________________ ______

Rather obvious that the second part, after the comma, is being compared to the 1874 McGill/Harvard football game.

So my point recognizes the earlier origins of hockey then focuses on the proximity of the 1874 football game and 1875 hockey game. McGill was involved in both, a clear indication of the influence that McGill University had on Montreal sports at that time. Throw in James Naismith, 1891 inventor of basketball:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Naismith

also a McGill grad and you have a further indication of the influence that McGill University exerted on sports in general.

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08-13-2012, 08:31 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Rather obvious that the second part, after the comma, is being compared to the 1874 McGill/Harvard football game.
Sorry, I'm confused by the fact that you said we were going back to the origins of hockey, but then only referred to McGill in the 1870s, which you're now telling me you do not consider to be the origins of hockey.

Why did you say we were going back to the origins of hockey if you did not actually discuss the origins of hockey, instead going back only as far as McGill? You said we're going back to the origins of the game, and then go immediately into a discussion of McGill. You can understand my confusion.


Last edited by Iain Fyffe: 08-13-2012 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Repetitive.
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08-13-2012, 08:51 PM
  #362
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1874-1875

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Sorry, I'm confused by the fact that you said we were going back to the origins of hockey, but then only referred to McGill in the 1870s, which you're now telling me you do not consider to be the origins of hockey.

Why did you say we were going back to the origins of hockey if you did not actually discuss the origins of hockey, instead going back only as far as McGill? You said we're going back to the origins of the game, and then go immediately into a discussion of McGill. You can understand my confusion.
Simply recognized that the origins pre dated 1875, then put McGill on the time line in a contrast to football 1874.

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08-13-2012, 10:55 PM
  #363
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I have to argue this my friend. Maybe you were being sarcastic, but violence is a socially learned behavior.
Actually no argument from me on that point LBD. Your absolutely correct that it is. Usually picked up from & assumed behaviour amongst the yoots from the Neanderthals that still walk amongst us. Frankly, I dont wonder sometimes that Cryptozoologists havent connected the dots with Sasquatch on that one. Lord knows I did years ago. Must be that were just not taken seriously enough huh? Outside of the realm of traditional science as we are....

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08-13-2012, 11:31 PM
  #364
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Actually no argument from me on that point LBD. Your absolutely correct that it is. Usually picked up from & assumed behaviour amongst the yoots from the Neanderthals that still walk amongst us.
I thought you said hockey violence results from body contact in a confined space with fast-moving pucks etc?

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08-14-2012, 08:19 AM
  #365
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I thought you said hockey violence results from body contact in a confined space with fast-moving pucks etc?
... Iain, as you well know violence can stem from any number of factors, in any environment, at anytime, be it spontaneous or premeditated. Its always ugly, unnecessary no matter the cause. On that I think you & I are in agreement.

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08-14-2012, 03:00 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I thought you said hockey violence results from body contact in a confined space with fast-moving pucks etc?
Iain...your question has helped me broaden my rather limited theory on violence. It is socially learned. However, when any human being is threatened/stressed the most primitive part of our brain is triggered - fight or flight. So, body contact, minimal space, size, speed, what we have learned on how to respond, etc...can all have an impact on our next behavior.

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08-14-2012, 04:45 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Iain...your question has helped me broaden my rather limited theory on violence. It is socially learned. However, when any human being is threatened/stressed the most primitive part of our brain is triggered - fight or flight. So, body contact, minimal space, size, speed, what we have learned on how to respond, etc...can all have an impact on our next behavior.
... pretty much. Recent studies show there is a direct correlation between the exposure children & adolescents have to violence & violent behaviour in their primary social groups such as family, peers, community and the use of violence itself. Theres also the "Demon Seed" theory, whereby violent, psychotic behaviour is inherited, surfacing regardless of socio-economic and or environmental conditions and factors. Personally I believe both are accurate. For the majority violence is learned, some however go unchecked, unbridled, over the edge, out of control, Neanderthal.

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08-14-2012, 05:22 PM
  #368
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Violence Management

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... pretty much. Recent studies show there is a direct correlation between the exposure children & adolescents have to violence & violent behaviour in their primary social groups such as family, peers, community and the use of violence itself. Theres also the "Demon Seed" theory, whereby violent, psychotic behaviour is inherited, surfacing regardless of socio-economic and or environmental conditions and factors. Personally I believe both are accurate. For the majority violence is learned, some however go unchecked, unbridled, over the edge, out of control, Neanderthal.
Since we have a greater understanding of violence, we also have a greater understanding of violence management and control.

This applies to hockey as well. Violence in hockey has many variants, from using the stick in a violent fashion, to using the boards to increase violence to using the speed,equipment, leverage and blind spots to deliver violent checks with forearms, elbows or shoulders. Slowly these elements are being regulated out of the game. Fighting remains a concern, though it is slowly being reduced at the NHL feeder level which bodes well for the future.

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08-14-2012, 06:58 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Iain...your question has helped me broaden my rather limited theory on violence. It is socially learned. However, when any human being is threatened/stressed the most primitive part of our brain is triggered - fight or flight. So, body contact, minimal space, size, speed, what we have learned on how to respond, etc...can all have an impact on our next behavior.
Indeed, these things serve as a trigger in hockey, but the response to that trigger is generally learned.

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Theres also the "Demon Seed" theory, whereby violent, psychotic behaviour is inherited, surfacing regardless of socio-economic and or environmental conditions and factors. Personally I believe both are accurate.
Of course, when discussing abnormal psychology it's very different than for most of the population.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
This applies to hockey as well. Violence in hockey has many variants, from using the stick in a violent fashion, to using the boards to increase violence to using the speed,equipment, leverage and blind spots to deliver violent checks with forearms, elbows or shoulders. Slowly these elements are being regulated out of the game. Fighting remains a concern, though it is slowly being reduced at the NHL feeder level which bodes well for the future.
It does. It's been a very slow process, but of course it could never really be anything but a slow process. Something like this can never change overnight, but we can hope that the NHL's apparent focus on head injuries will help direct their efforts, and lower leagues generally follow their lead.

Now, if the league would just admit that punching people in the head can and does lead to concussions...

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08-14-2012, 08:06 PM
  #370
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Concussions

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It does. It's been a very slow process, but of course it could never really be anything but a slow process. Something like this can never change overnight, but we can hope that the NHL's apparent focus on head injuries will help direct their efforts, and lower leagues generally follow their lead.

Now, if the league would just admit that punching people in the head can and does lead to concussions...
Interestingly boxing and the medical recognition of concussions go back to the Greek empire.

The last 20-25 years have seen tremendous advances in the recognition and treatment of concussions. Fact of the matter is that concussions are part of every day life, falls, car accidents, athletic activity, are just a few of the causes of concussions.Fortunately the "Shake it off" mentality has long left the room.

The NHL and other pro sport leagues face a paradoxical situation.Fighting is just one of the many causes of concussions. In the NFL fighting is very rare yet the incidence of concussions, given the small number of games, is very high.

The key is improving the skill levels thereby reducing the reliance on limited players with only brute skills. The NHL has taken a major step in this direction by reducing the enforcer element. This dominoes down to the feeder minor and junior leagues where apprentice goons were part of the landscape because there were NHL openings down the road.

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08-14-2012, 08:27 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The NHL and other pro sport leagues face a paradoxical situation.Fighting is just one of the many causes of concussions. In the NFL fighting is very rare yet the incidence of concussions, given the small number of games, is very high.

The key is improving the skill levels thereby reducing the reliance on limited players with only brute skills. The NHL has taken a major step in this direction by reducing the enforcer element. This dominoes down to the feeder minor and junior leagues where apprentice goons were part of the landscape because there were NHL openings down the road.
I agree with pretty much everything here. The NFL took an important step in banning helmet-to-helmet hits. And the enforcer element has been slowly dying out in the NHL...but according to this at least, fights in the NHL this past season were two-thirds higher than the previous year, and over twice as high as six years ago. What happened last season?

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08-14-2012, 08:42 PM
  #372
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Of course, when discussing abnormal psychology it's very different than for most of the population.
... Tip; Phrenology. All of the answers ye' seek can be found therein. Phrenological Charts and a study of the 4 Humours.

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08-14-2012, 09:11 PM
  #373
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... Tip; Phrenology. All of the answers ye' seek can be found therein. Phrenological Charts and a study of the 4 Humours.
That makes Freud seem positively credible by comparison!

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08-14-2012, 10:05 PM
  #374
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Verification

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I agree with pretty much everything here. The NFL took an important step in banning helmet-to-helmet hits. And the enforcer element has been slowly dying out in the NHL...but according to this at least, fights in the NHL this past season were two-thirds higher than the previous year, and over twice as high as six years ago. What happened last season?
Suggest verifying the submitted data.Also not clear if the numbers are PS/RS/PO totals or just RS = regular season.

Per the following there were:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...=1&Season=2012

broken down pre season, regular season and playoffs, significantly below the suggested number.

Using the same source for the 2010-11 season we see that fights dropped significantly:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...=1&Season=2011

And even further from the 2009-10 season:

http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...=1&Season=2010

Suggest that the second source shows rather conclusively that fighting is decreasing.

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08-14-2012, 10:52 PM
  #375
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Suggest verifying the submitted data.Also not clear if the numbers are PS/RS/PO totals or just RS = regular season.
Hah. Going to the site that the wikipedia data is supposedly from certainly shows a downward trend. In fact it seems the 2011/12 on wikipedia may be all fighting majors, rather than the number of fights, meaning it's two times what it should be.

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