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The all encompassing "players of today vs players from the past" thread

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Old
04-10-2013, 10:04 AM
  #551
BraveCanadian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Doug Gilmour who has a decent playoff resume but nothing spectacular, and was clearly worse in the regular season?
Mostly glazed over while reading your post but this part is hilariously wrong.

Doug Gilmour is one of the greatest playoff performers of all time bar none.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 04-10-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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04-10-2013, 01:45 PM
  #552
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Haha, Gilmour is the highest scoring non-Oiler during his playoff career (84 to 02), he had a higher PPG during that time than Yzerman, Hull and Fedorov, was a force defensively and physically, and that's "nothing spectacular". Love it.

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04-10-2013, 04:22 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
Haha, Gilmour is the highest scoring non-Oiler during his playoff career (84 to 02), he had a higher PPG during that time than Yzerman, Hull and Fedorov, was a force defensively and physically, and that's "nothing spectacular". Love it.
Agreed, some people love twisting facts to support their arguments.

In response to eva regarding Gretzky being competitive with Jagr as an old man I simply meantt he was in the ball park, jagr was clearly the more dominant player and it was rather easily, but the evidence suggests that a healthy, prime wayne would blow him away.

The increase in talent pool does not directly correlate with the high end talent, we are discussing outliers here. With all the influence from Europe and the US only two were true outliers Jagr, and Hasek and 3 if you include Lidstrom.

The depth of teams may be better at the bottom end, which is certainly debatable imo. Lots of 3rd, 4th liners can skate better, but they lack actual hockey skill in a lot of instances.

When we're discussing outliers who blew everyone out of the water and still remained competitive in the league during their 2nd decade while remaining at the top of the league it's hard to argue that the game has passed them by. It isn't true. Tony Twist might have a hard time finding a job in the NHL today, but that isn't really what we're discussing here.

For instance, Wayne dominated in every circumstance that has ever confronted him, on the international stage and in the NHL. Lead scoring 4 Canada cups, has more assists than anyone else has points, no different than what he did in the watered down NHL you speak of. He lead the WJC in scoring as a 16 year old. 16 years old, let that sink in for a bit.


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Old
04-10-2013, 04:27 PM
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Agreed, some people love twisting facts to support their arguments.

In response to eva regarding Gretzky being competitive with Jagr as an old man I simply meantt he was in the ball park, jagr was clearly the more dominant player and it was rather easily, but the evidence suggests that a healthy, prime wayne would blow him away
The sad thing is some people for some reason take that as an insult to Jagr (or whoever is being compared to Gretzky) when it isn't: A prime healthy Gretzky blows EVERYONE away. There's no shame in being blown away by Gretzky and it doesn't immune a player's abilities.

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04-10-2013, 06:28 PM
  #555
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Alright, home from work and ready to post.

First@Eva

There were not 2 Zubov's.
Kasatonov was a member of the KML UNIT I referred to and was in the NHL in '89.

Second, if you go back and read Hardy's argument, along with my response, you will see quite clearly what I was referring to.
Namely the early 90's, which I have already stated that I feel was the most jam packed with Talent I think the League has ever been....but it didn't last long.

Not sure how many more times I need to say this but the Yanks, Finn's and Swedes were already well established in the NHL by the time the Iron Curtain lifted in '89.
Just prior to this, there were 21 teams comprised of every Nationality except for the Russian's and the Czech's.
THEN, starting in '89, the best Russian's and Czech's finally started coming to the NHL.
By the end of the 91/92 season, that influx of new TOP TIER talent was pretty much complete. There were very few, if any TOP TIER players left outside of the NHL.
ThEN, the League added 9 more teams.

So my question, that I asked and still await a response to, is this...
If the only new talent streams added since the league went from 21 to 30 teams were the Russian's and the Czech's, who, as I pointed out, only make up 8% of the 30 team league today.
How does one conclude that today's players, in a 30 team league, are facing the high level of competition that is being portrayed???
It's certainly not higher than what was it was in a 21-24 team NHL in the early-mid 90's nor can one make a credible argument that it's even more talent packed than a 21 team league without the Russian's and Czech's was.
Again, 8% represents about 2.5 teams worth of players. THERE WERE 9 TEAMS ADDED!

Third
The crack about Gilmour's playoff resume was hilarious.

Fourth
Gretzky vs Jagr while they were in the league together...
90/91-98/99
Gretzky GP-640 Pts-878 PpG-1.37
Jagr GP-662 Pts-862 PpG-1.30

So I'm really not sure how anyone could say that Jagr dominated Gretzky.


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04-10-2013, 07:25 PM
  #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
It's absurd to delete all the European and American defensemen that Niedermayer competed against in his era when looking at his point totals when one considers that the highest-scoring forwards he played with during his entire career in New Jersey were:

1. Bobby Holik (CZE)
2. Patrik Elias (CZE)
3. Petr Sykora (CZE)
4. Scott Gomez (USA)
it's equally absurd to compare the eras as equal or close to it that Nieds played in with players who played only against Canadians as well isn't it?

Even among all Dmen he was 3rd in scoring for all Dmen while playing with those players listed on a defensive minded team for the most part.

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04-10-2013, 07:35 PM
  #557
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A lot of not very decent players that came into the Senators and Sharks. Expansion drafted but god what awful selections, while the other teams had to pick up players from the farm and possibly second class europeans as well.

Nowadays i do believe however that low-tier players are more well trained and gets to fill some role that suits them even though their whole game is sub-par. The first name that came up is Sean Bergenheim, but i guess Hagman may fall there as well. Players that can check but are not very talented and should'nt be in the league if there were fewer teams.

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04-10-2013, 08:37 PM
  #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
it's equally absurd to compare the eras as equal or close to it that Nieds played in with players who played only against Canadians as well isn't it?

Even among all Dmen he was 3rd in scoring for all Dmen while playing with those players listed on a defensive minded team for the most part.
Really?
Nieds played for the Devil's from 92/93 until 03/04. He is 10th in points among D-men and 27th in PpG by D-men with 200 or more games over that span.

Lidstrom GP-936 Pts-666 PpG-0.71
Leetch GP-827 Pts-665 PpG-0.80
Zubov GP-856 Pts-607 PpG-0.71
MacInnis GP-738 Pts-588 PpG-0.80
Bourque GP-662 Pts-564 PpG-0.85
Ozolinsh GP-779 Pts-525 PpG-0.67
Blake GP-767 Pts-520 PpG-0.68
Housley GP-836 Pts-512 PpG-0.70
Chelios GP-836 Pts-485 PpG-0.58
Niedermayer Gp-888 Pts-475 PpG-0.53


Even if we only put him up against the Canadians on that list, that's quite a sizable gap heh.


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04-10-2013, 08:56 PM
  #559
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1980-94 NHL Entry and Attrition Rates

Just the raw numbers that illustrate the NHL turnover of players - goalies and skaters from the merger of the four WHA teams at the start of the 1979-80 season increasing the size of the NHL to 21 teams until the end of the 1990-91 season. The NHL grew from 21 to 26 teams by the start of the 1993-94 season.

Data is available via hockey-reference.com:

Debut season

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...980_debut.html

Final season

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...980_final.html

To view all seasons just change the season - 1980, 1981 .... 1994

Starting with 1980.

Debut: 141/111/98/122/110/101/84/86/117/109/110/73*/113/92/154

Final: 203/133/154/100/131/106/109/84/119/118/119/122*/120/117/150

* last 21 team season.

Does not look like a significant impact from a specific source.

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04-10-2013, 08:58 PM
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Really?
Nieds played for the Devil's from 92/93 until 03/04. He is 10th in points among D-men and 27th in PpG by D-men with 200 or more games over that span.
Last part of my post should have said for the most part of his career he played on a defensively minded team.

He is still 1st overall for his entire time in the NHL among all Canadian Dmen and 3rd among all Dmen.

11 of the top 20 Dmen were non Canadian

Just for comparison Serge Savard was 10th(68-83, his 2 game 67 removed) with a Swede at 5th (Salming) and a Yankee (Larson) at 13th and the next non Canadian was at 25th.

For PPG over 200 GP Savard was in the 50's just to match your apple there.

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04-10-2013, 09:07 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Really?
Nieds played for the Devil's from 92/93 until 03/04. He is 10th in points among D-men and 27th in PpG by D-men with 200 or more games over that span.

Lidstrom GP-936 Pts-666 PpG-0.71
Leetch GP-827 Pts-665 PpG-0.80
Zubov GP-856 Pts-607 PpG-0.71
MacInnis GP-738 Pts-588 PpG-0.80
Bourque GP-662 Pts-564 PpG-0.85
Ozolinsh GP-779 Pts-525 PpG-0.67
Blake GP-767 Pts-520 PpG-0.68
Housley GP-836 Pts-512 PpG-0.70
Chelios GP-836 Pts-485 PpG-0.58
Niedermayer Gp-888 Pts-475 PpG-0.53


Even if we only put him up against the Canadians on that list, that's quite a sizable gap heh.
Really?

You want to focus on the starting point of his career to guys in their primes?

Read my last post as it gives a better perspective of his entire career compared to Savard, at least in offensive terms.

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04-10-2013, 09:07 PM
  #562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Last part of my post should ahve said for the most part of his career he played on a defensively minded team.

He is still 1st overall for his entire time in the NHL among all Canadian Dmen and 3rd among all Dmen.

11 of the top 20 Dmen were non Canadian

Just for comparison Serge Savard was 10th(68-83, his 2 game 67 removed) with a Swede at 5th (Salming) and a Yankee (Larson) at 13th and the next non Canadian was at 25th.

For PPG over 200 GP Savard was in the 50's just to match your apple there.
That's a terrible cherry pick.
Rob Blake is also #1 in Canadian D-men scoring for his entire time in the league.
Chris Pronger, for his entire time in the NHL, is a single point behind Niedermayer with 12 less games played.

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04-10-2013, 09:13 PM
  #563
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Really?

You want to focus on the starting point of his career to guys in their primes?

Read my last post as it gives a better perspective of his entire career compared to Savard, at least in offensive terms.
You defined the timeline for that, not me.
You said playing with those players mentioned(All NJ players) for a defensive minded team (NJ Devils).


As far as Savard goes, it's not his offense that gets him where he is. Rod Langway is not in the top 30 because he scored 51 goals lol

Savard was a stalwart on defense but hey don't listen to me, listen to Bowman.
He's the guy that said he considered Savard better defensively than Lapointe or Robinson.
Bowman was also the actual guy that sent Savard over the boards first in every situation. Remind me again how that team did with Bowman doing that

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04-10-2013, 09:34 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That's a terrible cherry pick.
Rob Blake is also #1 in Canadian D-men scoring for his entire time in the league.
Chris Pronger, for his entire time in the NHL, is a single point behind Niedermayer with 12 less games played.
How is judging a guys entire career a terrible cherry pick?

It's one of many metrics I look at, the more metrics we look at the better idea we get on how to judge a guy.

Heck it was and is more reasonable than your metric of 1 guy starting in his rookie season and then comparing how he does against establish stars in the league.

We see how Nieds stacks up with Savard here, do you want to go with top 5 or 10 in defense scoring year by year instead?

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04-10-2013, 11:16 PM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
How is judging a guys entire career a terrible cherry pick?
I showed why with the Blake and Pronger examples.

Quote:
It's one of many metrics I look at, the more metrics we look at the better idea we get on how to judge a guy.
What about the metric that compares Nieds to the guys that came just before him and played large portions of their career's during Scott's time?
I mean obviously he doesn't stack up to Bourque or Lidstrom.
What about Stevens or Chelios or MacInnis?
What about Leetch or Pronger?
Opps, we just hit #20 and #23 already and Niedermayer's case doesn't look any stronger

Quote:
Heck it was and is more reasonable than your metric of 1 guy starting in his rookie season and then comparing how he does against establish stars in the league.
Again dude, you set the parameters on that timeline and decided to comment on it.
Not my fault you didn't research it before you opened your yap about it.

Quote:
We see how Nieds stacks up with Savard here, do you want to go with top 5 or 10 in defense scoring year by year instead?
As long as the context is stated with it, sure.
I mean Savard is only being directly judged against the #1 offensive D-man of all-time in Orr, followed by arguably the #3 or #4 of all-time in Potvin. There's also that offensive scrub Park too.
Nieds is up against who again? Lidstrom, Zubov, Pronger, Blake?
Oh, actually, Leetch is in there(the only guy out of Nieds competition that even deserves to be in the same sentence as Orr, Potvin or Park offensively heh), how's that work out for Nieds offensively?
Heh, is Nieds competition REALLY stronger than Savard's?
More quantity maybe but quality, I don't think so.

And again, you seem to be making this just about offensive stats.
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Savard was offensively gifted or even as offensively gifted as Nieds. It's not Nieds was an offensive wizard to begin with either. Sure, he might have a lot of raw points but he also has some of the highest games played and one of the lowest PpG ratio's of any top D-man in the last 2 decades sooo...yeah.

Thing is though, do you really believe Savard made the top 30 because of his offense?
Do you think Nieds offensive advantage over Savard makes up for Savard's defensive advantage?
I don't. I think it's a close run thing between the two of them over-all.
Oh, look at that, they're only 5 spots apart. Apparently I'm not the only one that feels that way eh

And seriously, I have to ask...did you even see much of Savard play? The guy was a rock both in the NHL and internationally.
Do you think Bowman was off his rocker sending Savard over the boards before anyone else?
Or do you think he knew just how good he was too?
I mean with some teams it's a no brainer who the coach is going to send over the boards first but we're talking about having Robinson and Lapointe to pick from as well.
That's gotta say something, no?


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-10-2013 at 11:28 PM.
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04-11-2013, 06:57 AM
  #566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
How is judging a guys entire career a terrible cherry pick?
This has been pointed out before: because almost every player looks better in ordered lists when exactly the years making up their career are considered, since very few (sometimes no) other players will cover that entire time period.

For an example, Larry Murphy ranks 3rd overall in points over his career, and the only guys ahead of him are Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque. Does anyone think Larry Murphy is a top 3 (or even top 5) defensemen of the 1980-2000 period?

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04-11-2013, 08:07 AM
  #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You defined the timeline for that, not me.
You said playing with those players mentioned(All NJ players) for a defensive minded team (NJ Devils).


As far as Savard goes, it's not his offense that gets him where he is. Rod Langway is not in the top 30 because he scored 51 goals lol

Savard was a stalwart on defense but hey don't listen to me, listen to Bowman.
He's the guy that said he considered Savard better defensively than Lapointe or Robinson.
Bowman was also the actual guy that sent Savard over the boards first in every situation. Remind me again how that team did with Bowman doing that
Bowman also has Savard ranked ahead of Potvin on his top 100 Canadians list. He had some other really weird picks as well that don't hold up very well under scrutiny either.

Funny but when Robinson comes up there is little discussion on how he wasn't the best defensive Dman on the team but when Nieds comes up it a whole different world out there.

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04-11-2013, 08:18 AM
  #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
This has been pointed out before: because almost every player looks better in ordered lists when exactly the years making up their career are considered, since very few (sometimes no) other players will cover that entire time period.

For an example, Larry Murphy ranks 3rd overall in points over his career, and the only guys ahead of him are Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque. Does anyone think Larry Murphy is a top 3 (or even top 5) defensemen of the 1980-2000 period?
Yes one would expect all time greats to do well on their career list, like I said it's but one metric.

It doesn't measure who was the best Dman, it measures how he did offensively over that time, this is even more important for forwards than for Dmen who are also largely and maybe judged even more on their defense, at least in certain cases.

Savard's resume is based on his defensive play but alot of that is subjective and overblown as well at times. Like R71 said we all know how his Habs did in the playoffs but we also know how stacked those teams were and if one pulled almost any of those players out they likely wouldn't have been missed all that much, which says alot about the team situation the Habs had.

For all of Savard's defensive reputation he didn't receive alot of attention from voters until later in his career, possibly an oversight but the competition wasn't the deepest either and one wonders what would have happened had the other guys from Europe that made the top 60 had actually played in the NHL. Something would ahve to give if that had been the case.

But it wasn't and the benefit of the doubt was given, in huge favor, to all of the players involved at that time.

Seriously though the backlash from asking the question about Nieds/Savard/Vasiliev one would think I was talking about Housley or soemthing.

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04-11-2013, 08:40 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I showed why with the Blake and Pronger examples.
All you really showed is that you ahve the answer before you even look at teh question, like I said it's one metric.



Quote:
What about the metric that compares Nieds to the guys that came just before him and played large portions of their career's during Scott's time?
I mean obviously he doesn't stack up to Bourque or Lidstrom.
What about Stevens or Chelios or MacInnis?
What about Leetch or Pronger?
Opps, we just hit #20 and #23 already and Niedermayer's case doesn't look any stronger
The metric is how one is judged against his peers, which seems to be the mantra here, except when one doesn't want it to be I guess.

The guys you mention sound like better competition than what Savard had the 2 big studs aside.



Quote:
Again dude, you set the parameters on that timeline and decided to comment on it.
Not my fault you didn't research it before you opened your yap about it.
Like we have already gone over, my wording wasn't clear it's been rectified. It's pretty clear that you did comment on it with your example.



Quote:
As long as the context is stated with it, sure.
I mean Savard is only being directly judged against the #1 offensive D-man of all-time in Orr, followed by arguably the #3 or #4 of all-time in Potvin. There's also that offensive scrub Park too.
Nieds is up against who again? Lidstrom, Zubov, Pronger, Blake?
Oh, actually, Leetch is in there(the only guy out of Nieds competition that even deserves to be in the same sentence as Orr, Potvin or Park offensively heh), how's that work out for Nieds offensively?
Heh, is Nieds competition REALLY stronger than Savard's?
More quantity maybe but quality, I don't think so.
You know what we can take Potvin and Orr out of the equation and compare the 2 guys, something which is silly but maybe then you can see how they actually stack up then. I'll have to run that down later.

Quote:
And again, you seem to be making this just about offensive stats.
I don't think anyone is going to argue that Savard was offensively gifted or even as offensively gifted as Nieds. It's not Nieds was an offensive wizard to begin with either. Sure, he might have a lot of raw points but he also has some of the highest games played and one of the lowest PpG ratio's of any top D-man in the last 2 decades sooo...yeah.
We went over this, most of those guys with higher PPG played prime years in much higher scoring times that's why one of the metrics I use is how any guys does against his peers over the length of his career, we can do prime and peak as well to get a larger picture.

Remind me to mention the PPG thing in the Crosby thread as I don't think it has been brought up there yet.

Quote:
Thing is though, do you really believe Savard made the top 30 because of his offense?
No we all know that Savard's reputation is built on his defense.


Quote:
Do you think Nieds offensive advantage over Savard makes up for Savard's defensive advantage?
Well the numbers sure suggest that it's possible heck even highly likely.


Quote:
I don't. I think it's a close run thing between the two of them over-all.
Oh, look at that, they're only 5 spots apart. Apparently I'm not the only one that feels that way eh
Good thing you give your opinion here as I couldn't figure out how you felt about it.

Quote:
And seriously, I have to ask...did you even see much of Savard play? The guy was a rock both in the NHL and internationally
Not this stuff again? We have been overt that many times, mid 40's guy here had the opportunity to see lots of hockey in the 70's, although I didn't see him in his early years.



Quote:
Do you think Bowman was off his rocker sending Savard over the boards before anyone else?
Or do you think he knew just how good he was too?
I mean with some teams it's a no brainer who the coach is going to send over the boards first but we're talking about having Robinson and Lapointe to pick from as well.
That's gotta say something, no?
Maybe the MPG that Nieds was putting up says something too

Or the MPG that Zubov played?

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04-11-2013, 09:02 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
All you really showed is that you ahve the answer before you even look at teh question, like I said it's one metric.
OR it's because this "metric" has been tried before and shot down before as Epsilon also pointed out heh



Quote:
The metric is how one is judged against his peers, which seems to be the mantra here, except when one doesn't want it to be I guess.

The guys you mention sound like better competition than what Savard had the 2 big studs aside.
Yeah because Park, Robinson and Salming are worse than Pronger, Zubov and Blake right



Quote:
Like we have already gone over, my wording wasn't clear it's been rectified. It's pretty clear that you did comment on it with your example.
Hahahaha of course it was rectified.
Especially after I pointed it out.
Trying to deflect your "foot in mouth" mistake on me is hilarious.
You said it, you set the parameters, I pointed out the fallacy of it and now it's my fault? Yeah right


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You know what we can take Potvin and Orr out of the equation and compare the 2 guys, something which is silly but maybe then you can see how they actually stack up then. I'll have to run that down later.
You can start with the names mentioned above.

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We went over this, most of those guys with higher PPG played prime years in much higher scoring times that's why one of the metrics I use is how any guys does against his peers over the length of his career, we can do prime and peak as well to get a larger picture.
Ohhhh that's why Leetch and Zubov and Lidstrom and Pronger and Blake have a higher PpG ratio than Niedermayer. They all played before Nieds right...wait a minute

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Remind me to mention the PPG thing in the Crosby thread as I don't think it has been brought up there yet.
By all means and while you're at it make sure you show where those PpG leaders only played 70% of their teams games and only played 50% of their teams games at their highest PpG ratio.



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Well the numbers sure suggest that it's possible heck even highly likely.
No they don't, it's show that overall they're pretty close to one another.
Same as they end up on the alltime list.




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Not this stuff again? We have been overt that many times, mid 40's guy here had the opportunity to see lots of hockey in the 70's, although I didn't see him in his early years.
My mistake, I'm sorry. I will no longer suspect that you haven't seen a lot of these players, I'll just suspect that you didn't actually know what you were watching.



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Maybe the MPG that Nieds was putting up says something too

Or the MPG that Zubov played?
MpG doesn't prove anything in a 30 team league.
There's 9 guys right now that wouldn't be #1 D-men in a 21 team league and wouldn't be getting any where close to the minute they play today.

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04-11-2013, 11:15 PM
  #571
Hardyvan123
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OR it's because this "metric" has been tried before and shot down before as Epsilon also pointed out heh
why don't we just throw out career points as any kind of metric while we are at it as well here?





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Yeah because Park, Robinson and Salming are worse than Pronger, Zubov and Blake right
Once again only look at part of Nieds group depending if it supports your opinion or not.





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Hahahaha of course it was rectified.
Especially after I pointed it out.
Trying to deflect your "foot in mouth" mistake on me is hilarious.
You said it, you set the parameters, I pointed out the fallacy of it and now it's my fault? Yeah right





Quote:
You can start with the names mentioned above.
You know what, I'm going to take out Orr and Potvin to make Savard look better and keep all of Nieds competition in the comparison and then maybe you might actually see the huge difference between Savard and Nieds offensively even against their peers.

Like I said I will do that when I ahve more time, like on the weekend.



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Ohhhh that's why Leetch and Zubov and Lidstrom and Pronger and Blake have a higher PpG ratio than Niedermayer. They all played before Nieds right...wait a minute
Playing one's prime in a higher scoring era will make for more PPG for some players yes. We could adjust them if it makes you feel better.



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By all means and while you're at it make sure you show where those PpG leaders only played 70% of their teams games and only played 50% of their teams games at their highest PpG ratio.
Well do you say the same thing about Mario as well?

At least be consistent, this pick and choose way of comparing players shows a hint of bias on your part here.

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No they don't, it's show that overall they're pretty close to one another.
Same as they end up on the alltime list.
The numbers actually will show a much different story, but like Zubov they will be dismissed by you as you have your answer ready instead of having an open mind, which is kinda the point here isn't it?

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My mistake, I'm sorry. I will no longer suspect that you haven't seen a lot of these players, I'll just suspect that you didn't actually know what you were watching.
Uh Okay

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MpG doesn't prove anything in a 30 team league.
There's 9 guys right now that wouldn't be #1 D-men in a 21 team league and wouldn't be getting any where close to the minute they play today.
What exactly does this have to do with guys like Zubov, who averaged 26:14 MPG from age 28-38?

Or Nieds who averaged 25:21 MPG from age 25-36?

Or that Savard played directly after the rapid expansion and dilution of the NHL in the late 60's and early 70s and had the fortune of playing for a dynasty in the Habs?

You seem really focused on a 21 team league like it has been around forever, you were around for the late 60's and 70's right? Remember rapid expansion and the WHA with virtually no new streams of talent, a hand full of players aside?

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04-12-2013, 02:06 AM
  #572
Rhiessan71
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why don't we just throw out career points as any kind of metric while we are at it as well here?
Dude, seriously, this is not the first time that using a player's stats only during the time he was in the NHL, has been tried and had the flaws of it pointed out.
I provided examples of other players, as did Epsilon, to show the flaws in such a metric.
You're acting like this is something new.



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Once again only look at part of Nieds group depending if it supports your opinion or not.
Actually, since you obviously didn't figure it out, what I did was eliminate what I deemed was Nieds top 2 competition, namely Lidstrom and MacInnis. Same as what you did for Savard in eliminating Orr and Potvin.


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You know what, I'm going to take out Orr and Potvin to make Savard look better and keep all of Nieds competition in the comparison and then maybe you might actually see the huge difference between Savard and Nieds offensively even against their peers.
See above.



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Playing one's prime in a higher scoring era will make for more PPG for some players yes. We could adjust them if it makes you feel better.
Adjust 'em all you want but the fact remains that Niedermayer still ends up CLEARLY at the bottom of the offensive list. Hell, even Chara, after he got off the Island is Niedermayer's equal offensively.
I dunno about you but that sure is telling to me



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Well do you say the same thing about Mario as well?

At least be consistent, this pick and choose way of comparing players shows a hint of bias on your part here.
Back to this again from the Crosby thread eh?
Again, for the FOURTH time! Mario did prove he could maintain his extremely high PpG ratio over a full season and therefore gets the benefit of the doubt.
Crosby has not done so over a full season YET, so he does not.



Quote:
The numbers actually will show a much different story, but like Zubov they will be dismissed by you as you have your answer ready instead of having an open mind, which is kinda the point here isn't it?
I seriously don't know what Zubov you were watching.
He was a good offensive player that became acceptable to above the average player defensively later on.
His positioning and risk management got much better later on but he was still terrible one on one, weak around his own net and in the corners.
He was a good player, very good offensively at times but he wasn't an all-time great nor should he be in the top 60 IMO.









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Or that Savard played directly after the rapid expansion and dilution of the NHL in the late 60's and early 70s and had the fortune of playing for a dynasty in the Habs?

You seem really focused on a 21 team league like it has been around forever, you were around for the late 60's and 70's right? Remember rapid expansion and the WHA with virtually no new streams of talent, a hand full of players aside?
The NHL expanded from 21 to 30 teams over 8 years during Niedermayer's career!
That's not rapid expansion?

Here's my question again from earlier:
If the best of the best world wide were already in the NHL by '92, what players exactly filled out the next 8 teams of 200+ spots?

Aside from a couple of Draftees, those 200+ spots were mostly filled by Tier III and IV players with a few "defective" Tier II's thrown in.



AND here's the biggest hurdle of them all...
Please show me the evidence that an increased talent pool yields an even remotely equal increase in Elite top Tier talent.
I DEFY you to show me that there are more Elite Top Tier Russians in the league today out of the 3.3% of 30 teams (99% of one team) than there was out of the 2.8% of 22 teams (62% of one team) there was in 91/92.

Can you even name 3 players today that you could say were equal to Fedorov, Bure and Molgilny?
I see OV, Malkin and maybe Dats.
So despite the Russian talent stream almost doubling since '92, there is NO increase in Elite talent from that stream to today.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 04-12-2013 at 02:29 AM.
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04-12-2013, 06:26 AM
  #573
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Bowman also has Savard ranked ahead of Potvin on his top 100 Canadians list. He had some other really weird picks as well that don't hold up very well under scrutiny either.

Funny but when Robinson comes up there is little discussion on how he wasn't the best defensive Dman on the team but when Nieds comes up it a whole different world out there.
Forget about the list as a whole, since there is likely bias at play. Just looked at how he ranked players he coached. He has Savard ahead of Robinson.

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04-12-2013, 07:11 AM
  #574
Hardyvan123
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Forget about the list as a whole, since there is likely bias at play. Just looked at how he ranked players he coached. He has Savard ahead of Robinson.
Okay but when we challenge that view it doesn't really hold very much water.

I respect Bowman but just because he said something doesn't make it true.

Put another way, I doubt very few people would put Savard ahead of Robinson if they looked at their careers, why would Bowmans opinion shatter all of that evidence or evaluation?

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04-12-2013, 07:44 AM
  #575
LeBlondeDemon10
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Okay but when we challenge that view it doesn't really hold very much water.

I respect Bowman but just because he said something doesn't make it true.

Put another way, I doubt very few people would put Savard ahead of Robinson if they looked at their careers, why would Bowmans opinion shatter all of that evidence or evaluation?
Its quite possible that Bowman put Savard ahead of Robinson just for the period in which he coached them, not based on career. That's not so far-fetched. Savard was huge in big games.

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