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Old
12-06-2010, 04:23 PM
  #51
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
dryden made the NHL at 24. Price at 23 has 3 years experience already. So who developed earlier?

Is that you , Jack?
I think you have to let go of the age thing. Fact is: Dryden won a Conn Smythe before having even 10 regular season NHL games under his belt, and the Vezina the year after winning the Calder. That's getting to the top of your game pretty damn quickly, and yes... quicker than Price - or just about everyone, really, for that matter. I mean, we're talking about virtually 0 adjustment time from running over crappy teams in the ECAC to competing at the highest level and being recognized among the best of the best.

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12-06-2010, 04:26 PM
  #52
macavoy
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I mean, we're talking about virtually 0 adjustment time from running over crappy teams in the ECAC to competing at the highest level and being recognized among the best of the best.
That's because he was OLDER and more mature. When your older and more mature, its easier to make those transitions then when your young and immature.

Age is a huge factor.

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Old
12-06-2010, 04:27 PM
  #53
Lafleurs Guy
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Here's my thoughts on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
"I was wrong about Carey Price. Wrong as a sportswriter can be.

The kid has the right stuff. Check that. The man has the right stuff.
Hey, it happens. I still believe that the criticisms, given Price's play over the past two seasons, were justified. But this time around, Price isn't being given a thing. He has earned our respect.

Physically, I never doubted Price. The issues were with his mental and emotional makeup.

I thought he was lazy. I was wrong. I thought he was too lackadaisical. I was wrong. I thought his penchant for high living would always undermine his performance. I was wrong.
Okay Jack, so you seem to be off on the right start (your bs comments about the last two years aside.) Good work. Now just end this article and call it a day...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
Above all, I thought that while Price might thrive somewhere in the NHL, he would never have the stuff to stand up to the pressure in Montreal. I thought that to succeed, he would have to move on to some NHL backwater like Nashville or Phoenix. I was wrong.
Really? That's what you thought? Because I could've sworn that most of the time you were doing character assassinations on Price and trashing him every week.

I'm sorry but your article is starting to reek of something...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
I was one of the first to believe that Price could attain the level of a Plante, a Dryden, a Roy. Turns out I was right all along. It just took longer than anyone expected.
You were "right all along"?

I'm sorry but the milk I was drinking just came shooting out of my nose from the laughter that I experienced after reading that whopper of a lie.

Do you have any concept of physics Jack? You do understand what 'all along' means right? All along includes the last two years where you have mercilessly gone out of your way (even in articles that had nothing to do with hockey) to mention how much you hate Price. You minimized all his accomplishments and exaggerated any failures.

You were a Jackass Jack. Please just man up and admit it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
I covered Price's first NHL game, in Pittsburgh, and I thought I was seeing a young Ken Dryden. Perhaps that was true, but Price did not develop as quickly as Dryden or Patrick Roy. For many reasons. Maybe Price let the early adulation go to his head. Certainly it took a while for him to understand what you have to do to succeed at this level.

It was probably all to the good that Price had to sit and watch and take some time to grow up while Jaroslav Halak led the team.
How did he not develop as quickly as Dryden? Dryden wasn't even in the league until his mid 20s... Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

And this leads to a second question... Were you demanding him to become Dryden or Roy? Is that why you trashed the guy every day? If the litmus test for being a success is Ken Dryden then 99% (maybe 100%) of all the goalies who ever played might as well just pack it in then. And you might as well just sharpen your knives now because its unlikely Price (or maybe any other goalie for that matter) will ever be as good as either of those other two guys.

Smarten up Jack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
Whatever it took to get here, Price is now in the Vezina Trophy conversation. An all-star berth is all but a certainty -a much-deserved berth, this time.
Uh... nice try trying to sneak that one past us Jack. So you're saying that he didn't deserve that last All-Star berth?

Why?

At the time he was voted in, he had tremendous numbers and led the league in wins (the stat that you continuously bashed him over the head for last year remember?) before going down with an injury sometime in late December.

So again, what the hell are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
Price ranks third in save percentage at .935 (behind Boston's Tim Thomas and Atlanta's Ondrej Pavelec) and fifth in goals-against average with a 1.96, behind Thomas, Pavelec, L.A.'s Jonathan Quick and former Canadien Mathieu Garon of Columbus.

But Price has been the league's workhorse. He has started all but two of his team's 27 games and has won 16, both tops in the NHL. He has four shutouts, tied for second behind Thomas.

But the most remarkable thing about Price this year is his consistency. When a team has allowed as many as four goals only twice in 27 games (with the fourth goal coming in overtime on both occasions) the goaltender has reached a level where he simply does not have bad games.

Almost every goalie in the league has had bad outings this year, including all the biggest names: Martin Brodeur, Ryan Miller, Roberto Luongo.

Not Price. We are a third of the way through the season, and so far Price's bad games have been decent, his good games have been excellent and his excellent games have been up there with the finest goaltenders in the history of this franchise.

The Canadiens aren't getting much scoring out of their marquee players, Scott Gomez in particular. They are atop the division today because of some timely scoring and a rock-solid blue line, backed up by one of the finest young goaltenders in the game.
I'm pretty sure he was among the top 3 in save percentage when he was voted into the all-star game a few years back and was leading the league in wins before suffering his ankle injury.

How is it that his stats warrant Vezina and All-star consideration now but not back then?

Why not just admit that you've actually been WRONG 'ALL ALONG'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
I will never understand the thousands of so-called Canadiens fans who loathe Jaroslav Halak for dragging the Habs to the third round of the playoffs last spring,
What does this have to do with anything?

First of all, those folks are few and far between. Secondly, YOU are the one who made this a Price vs Halk/ Us vs THEM type of scenario in YOUR articles. Don't project this little war on the majority of fans who wanted to see the team win regardless of who was in the nets.

It's one thing to argue a point, its another to completely go after a young players character and publicly trash him the way you did over the past two years.

You are a disgrace to professional journalism. You should be embarrassed about what you have written over the past few years, Lord knows we're embarrassed for you. You have no business calling yourself a 'professional journalist' and you should be fired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Todd
but if I had to make the call right now, I would trade Halak and keep Price. It was the right call.

Can Price keep it up? Absolutely. He can and he will.
Great.

Next time offer up a real apology, you sorry excuse for a sportswriter.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 12-06-2010 at 04:37 PM.
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Old
12-06-2010, 04:46 PM
  #54
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heh, was reading this in the newspaper today at work and i just KNEW thered be a thread about it when i got home lol

he's giving price credit finally, but hes still being kind of snub about it, like only an american can

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Old
12-06-2010, 04:50 PM
  #55
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
That's because he was OLDER and more mature. When your older and more mature, its easier to make those transitions then when your young and immature.

Age is a huge factor.
I guess my retort to this would be: if this was so universally true/linearly applicable, why haven't more US college players (besides Nieuwendyk - same school as Dryden, btw, and the only 2 numbers retired at Cornell, to the best of my knowledge) won the Calder since Dryden's day? I'm not saying it ISN'T easier due to age/maturity (I'm in my mid-30s so I know 1st hand that it IS). I'm just saying let's not excessively play up the impact upon on-ice performance and where one measures against his peers (with phrases like "huge factor" - hyperbole?).

Besides, these guy both lived and played away from home since at least their teenage years. Experiences like that contribute to one's maturity far more than something as simplistic as the number of times you've made it around the sun.

Also (shifting back to the onice guy), what if Dryden started playing hockey at age 10, and Price at age 5? Wouldn't that make it 14/15 years of hockey before Dryden's 1st Vezina, while Price would already have 18 years under his belt. Who developed "quicker"?

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12-06-2010, 04:51 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think you have to let go of the age thing. Fact is: Dryden won a Conn Smythe before having even 10 regular season NHL games under his belt, and the Vezina the year after winning the Calder. That's getting to the top of your game pretty damn quickly, and yes... quicker than Price - or just about everyone, really, for that matter. I mean, we're talking about virtually 0 adjustment time from running over crappy teams in the ECAC to competing at the highest level and being recognized among the best of the best.
i GET it....but its not like Price didnt do somethign amazingly impressive of his own 4 years ago

everyone just seems to completely forget Price joining an AHL team after his junior season ended, a 19 year old playing a league where you usualy have to be 20 and over, and went 15-6 to lead the team to a AHL championship winning MVP honors and being the youngest ever to do so.

yeah, fine, its not winning a conn smythe before even being a rookie in the NHL, but god damn, its not like price didnt do something almost equally as impressive! he was 19 for christ sakes!

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Old
12-06-2010, 05:29 PM
  #57
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I almost want Price to stumble now so I can see Todd dig his hole even deeper (not really though).

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12-06-2010, 05:58 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Call me the devil's advocate but I think your a little late to the show. This might have been applicable before Todd ate crow but now that he's admitted his error in judgement, he's proving that he isn't a total idiot and that he's just late to the party.

It takes alot for people to admit that they are wrong. Its not easy when you are a public figure and have thousands of people reading you. Kudo's to him for finally doing it.

I don't really respect Jack that much but I can respect a man who can admit his errors and have an open mind.
He doesn't really deserve a lot of credit. His mind was pried open from the outside by the reality of it all. He was trying to lessen the impact by preempting the inevitable gloaters ready to pounce on him.

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12-06-2010, 06:04 PM
  #59
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Still waiting for his apology for the Gainey bashings.

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12-06-2010, 06:55 PM
  #60
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I won't read the article because I refuse to give that jughead a hit. I've read enough from the clown in the past to know that he has very very very little understanding of hockey and his column is used as a vehicle to settle his personal vendettas....extremely unprofessional journalist.

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Old
12-06-2010, 07:22 PM
  #61
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24 is quite a ripe age. Dryden was already traded to the habs at this point so it appears his developmental curve was steeper. He didnt turn pro at age 20 because he wouldnt have made it. Price did. He developed faster. Dryden was overrated anyway. The Russians exposed him. His lateral motion left something to be desired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
You must really have a comprehension problem. Todd wrote and i quote,"Price did not develop as quickly as Dryden." Dryden made the NHL at 24 which was when he also became a star. Price became a star at 23 but he made the NHL at 20 years old. This for you means Price did not develop as quickly as Dryden?

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12-06-2010, 07:29 PM
  #62
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The game was different. No European players to the same extent. A slower game. Sticks now are much different. Dryden didnt play behind spacegoat and Gill.IMHO Carey is already better. Lets hope that he keeps it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think you have to let go of the age thing. Fact is: Dryden won a Conn Smythe before having even 10 regular season NHL games under his belt, and the Vezina the year after winning the Calder. That's getting to the top of your game pretty damn quickly, and yes... quicker than Price - or just about everyone, really, for that matter. I mean, we're talking about virtually 0 adjustment time from running over crappy teams in the ECAC to competing at the highest level and being recognized among the best of the best.

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12-06-2010, 08:22 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
24 is quite a ripe age. Dryden was already traded to the habs at this point so it appears his developmental curve was steeper. He didnt turn pro at age 20 because he wouldnt have made it. Price did. He developed faster. Dryden was overrated anyway. The Russians exposed him. His lateral motion left something to be desired.
Why bring this up? It's more pertinent that Orr and Esposito and Hodge didn't expose him. Neither did Clarke and Barber and Reggie Leach. Boston and Philadelphia were the only teams besides the Habs to win a Cup between 1968 and 1979.

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12-06-2010, 09:31 PM
  #64
macavoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I guess my retort to this would be: if this was so universally true/linearly applicable, why haven't more US college players (besides Nieuwendyk - same school as Dryden, btw, and the only 2 numbers retired at Cornell, to the best of my knowledge) won the Calder since Dryden's day? I'm not saying it ISN'T easier due to age/maturity (I'm in my mid-30s so I know 1st hand that it IS). I'm just saying let's not excessively play up the impact upon on-ice performance and where one measures against his peers (with phrases like "huge factor" - hyperbole?).
Your Calder arguement doesn't hold any weight. Players that win the Calder are typically elite talents and will be in the league before they are 21. So if a player plays US college, then they aren't good enough to break into the league generally. If a player is that good, playing US college is harming their development.

Age is still a huge factor in development, especially for goalies. Look at the Calder winners who were goalies, all were over 21, Nabokov was 25 when he won it.

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12-07-2010, 11:30 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Your Calder arguement doesn't hold any weight. Players that win the Calder are typically elite talents and will be in the league before they are 21. So if a player plays US college, then they aren't good enough to break into the league generally. If a player is that good, playing US college is harming their development.

Age is still a huge factor in development, especially for goalies. Look at the Calder winners who were goalies, all were over 21, Nabokov was 25 when he won it.
Really? If you are awarded the rookie of the year award in your first year (obviously), and then the Vezina in your 2nd year, I think that's perfectly indicative of a sharp, steep development curve. Especially when I'm now reading posters suggesting Dryden "wasn't good enough" for the NHL at 20. I guess somehow plowing over the ECAC (where his team only lost something like 4 of 60 games in his 3 years there) prepared him for the rigors of competing at the NHL level to the extent that he emerged as the best goalie in the game by his 2nd NHL season.

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12-07-2010, 11:55 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Really? If you are awarded the rookie of the year award in your first year (obviously), and then the Vezina in your 2nd year, I think that's perfectly indicative of a sharp, steep development curve. Especially when I'm now reading posters suggesting Dryden "wasn't good enough" for the NHL at 20. I guess somehow plowing over the ECAC (where his team only lost something like 4 of 60 games in his 3 years there) prepared him for the rigors of competing at the NHL level to the extent that he emerged as the best goalie in the game by his 2nd NHL season.
Age matters and let me tell you why. It took Price three years in the NHL to become a starter. It took Tim Thomas one year. On that basis are you gonna tell me that Thomas at 30 developed quicker than Price at 23 because one goalie did it in one year while the other did it in 3.

So going back to the Dryden case. Todd at this very moment sees Price on the same level as Dryden. It says so in his article. So Dryden achieved that level at 24. Price achieved it at 23. To say Price didn't develop as quickly as Dryden is a mistake and I'll tell you why it's a mistake. Todd remembers dryden being a standout the first year he was in the league but he forgot that Dryden made it only at 24 after the Bruins gave up on him and traded him away to the Habs.


Last edited by onice: 12-07-2010 at 12:01 PM.
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12-07-2010, 12:10 PM
  #67
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Yes and Don also said Price was never gonna make it in Montreal. That they should have traded him elsewhere for his own sake. The fans were going to be too hard on him
Cherry will take any opportunity to bash Hab fans. He does is directly now and then but his favourite is the backhanded bash. Just a real knucklehead.

He's putting the chain of office on Toronto's new mayor today. If I'd only known - guess it's too late to take back my vote.

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12-07-2010, 12:12 PM
  #68
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Age matters and let me tell you why. It took Price three years in the NHL to become a starter. It took Tim Thomas one year. On that basis are you gonna tell me that Thomas at 30 developed quicker than Price at 23 because one goalie did it in one year while the other did it in 3.

So going back to the Dryden case. Todd at this very moment sees Price on the same level as Dryden. It says so in his article. So Dryden achieved that level at 24. Price achieved it at 23. To say Price didn't develop as quickly as Dryden is a mistake and I'll tell you why it's a mistake. Todd remembers dryden being a standout the first year he was in the league but he forgot that Dryden made it only at 24 after the Bruins gave up on him and traded him away to the Habs.
Sigh... horrible example. You can't just remove the 6 or 7 years of pro hockey Thomas played in the AHL, Sweden, and Finland between graduating from college and sticking with the Bruins full time. Time spent at those levels are OBVIOUSLY considered developmental. I think many/most of us are aware, though, that the NCAA/ECAC wasn't remotely as effective from a development standpoint as it has been in recent years. Performance and eventual "graduation" from the AHL, Eliteserien, or SM-Liiga has been a good benchmark for years as to whether or not a player is developing toward full-time NHL calibre (be it as a scorer, checker, 4th liner, whatever). Graduation from the ECAC/NCAA on the other hand? Not even the same ball park, even now.

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12-07-2010, 12:25 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sigh... horrible example. You can't just remove the 6 or 7 years of pro hockey Thomas played in the AHL, Sweden, and Finland between graduating from college and sticking with the Bruins full time. Time spent at those levels are OBVIOUSLY considered developmental. I think many/most of us are aware, though, that the NCAA/ECAC wasn't remotely as effective from a development standpoint as it has been in recent years. Performance and eventual "graduation" from the AHL, Eliteserien, or SM-Liiga has been a good benchmark for years as to whether or not a player is developing toward full-time NHL calibre (be it as a scorer, checker, 4th liner, whatever). Graduation from the ECAC/NCAA on the other hand? Not even the same ball park, even now.
So you agree that Price developed earlier than Thomas.

Now your argument is that we don't really know at what level Dryden was at when he played at Cornell. Except we do, the Bruins got rid of him because they saw him as a bust. Obviously he wasn't opening any eyes with his play. Also in 72 the Russians were surprised he was selected to the team. they had played him (in his last 2 years at Cornell) when he backstopped the amatuer national team one & two years earlier and they lit him up like a Russian Xmas tree.

Also he played some 30 odd games for the voyageurs (stacked with Lapointe, Tardif, Houle etc) and had a save % of 2.68. Respectable but nothing to rave about.


Last edited by onice: 12-07-2010 at 12:33 PM.
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12-08-2010, 07:00 AM
  #70
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Geez...get over yourselves.

Jack voiced an opinion, one that was shared by many. That he now stated that he believes that his previous opinion was wrong marks him as a stand up guy. Many of you could learn a thing or two on that front.

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12-08-2010, 07:43 AM
  #71
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Uh... nice try trying to sneak that one past us Jack. So you're saying that he didn't deserve that last All-Star berth?

Why?

At the time he was voted in, he had tremendous numbers and led the league in wins (the stat that you continuously bashed him over the head for last year remember?) before going down with an injury sometime in late December.

So again, what the hell are you talking about?
By the end of december 2008, Price was 16-4-5 with a 2.41 gaa and .920 save%.

With Tim Thomas, he was the hottest goalie at the time. Todd and many people tend to forget that.

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12-08-2010, 08:19 AM
  #72
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Geez...get over yourselves.

Jack voiced an opinion, one that was shared by many.
I don' think he was only ''voicing an opinion''. For the past 2 years, he's been on a smear campaign when it came to Price. He deliberately didn't mention/downplayed all the positive about Price to blow out of proportion his struggles, all while attacking him personally.

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That he now stated that he believes that his previous opinion was wrong marks him as a stand up guy. Many of you could learn a thing or two on that front.
No. He only wrote that article because he didn't have a choice: he looks like a ****ing dumbass now and he's trying to save face. With the way Price is playing right now, his statistics, his recognition around the league and the support he has for the All-Star game, all his petty columns are falling flat right now.

Notice how he says that he ''was right all along''. He's not recognizing he was terribly wrong, just trying to paint himself in a good light.

Seeing as you were always one of Price's fiercest haters on this board, you can go eat a double portion of crow with Todd now.

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12-08-2010, 08:37 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MattKOTW View Post
"I was wrong but by proxy I was right".
This x10000

Thread title is inaccurate - this isn't Todd eating crow at all, just a lot of smoke and mirrors to make it seem like it. "Turns out I was right all along"? Hahahaha what a joke.

I'm sure if someone did enough digging during Price's lowest point they could find a Todd article where he probably wrote something along the lines of, "I said Carey Price would be a great goaltender, but not with the Montreal Canadiens. Turns out I was right all along".

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12-08-2010, 09:14 AM
  #74
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Geez...get over yourselves.

Jack voiced an opinion, one that was shared by many. That he now stated that he believes that his previous opinion was wrong marks him as a stand up guy. Many of you could learn a thing or two on that front.
Looking at your posting history with regards to Price, I wouldn't be surprised if you were Jack Todd.

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12-09-2010, 02:23 PM
  #75
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So you agree that Price developed earlier than Thomas.
Not necessarily, because no one even knows what that means. Price has developed to a possible/future Vezina winner "sooner" than the other two actually won the Vezina? What are we even comparing/discussing here?

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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Now your argument is that we don't really know at what level Dryden was at when he played at Cornell. Except we do, the Bruins got rid of him because they saw him as a bust. Obviously he wasn't opening any eyes with his play. Also in 72 the Russians were surprised he was selected to the team. they had played him (in his last 2 years at Cornell) when he backstopped the amatuer national team one & two years earlier and they lit him up like a Russian Xmas tree.

Also he played some 30 odd games for the voyageurs (stacked with Lapointe, Tardif, Houle etc) and had a save % of 2.68. Respectable but nothing to rave about.
See, it's stuff like this that keeps sucking me back in. No, my argument is NOT what you mention above. It is simply something else to consider if you're trying to reach a "conclusion". I do find it interesting, though, that in an effort to offer a counter-point you seemingly suggest that Dryden either was/should have been viewed as a "bust" between his being traded by the Bruins in '64 and sometime around facing the Russians during his final year(s) at Cornell. If that was the case, then you've simply supported the idea that he developed impressively quickly to go from that level almost immediately to Conn Smythe winner followed by the Calder and then 5 Vezinas and 1st team post season all-star nominations in the next 7 seasons.

I suspect we're all dancing semantically around slightly different definitions here.

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