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Habs Priority Remains a Top 6 Forward: Kaberle was a Suggestion

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Old
12-07-2010, 11:18 AM
  #151
Lucius
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Yeah I know what you mean but in this case T.O would be thinking long-term with Weber and he has very little experience in the NHL so maybe they wanted to see him play a few games. But yeah you're probably right.

Just seems like since we have another young right-handed offensive defenseman and we just lost a top 10 defenseman in the league it would make sense for both teams.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see Weber + whatever pick or conditional pick headed to T.O for Kaberle. This is the type of thing that can help both teams.
I am not saying it's far fetched as an idea, I just suspect that if that deal were going to happen, that has absolutely nothing to do with where Weber is right now.

I also doubt we move Weber. Typically the Habs move prospects that either still in the minors, unable to crack the team, or failed to impress once there.

Weber is neither of those at this moment and given the uncertainty on defense next year (Gill, Hamrlik, Gorges and Markov are all free agents), Weber may be kept as insurance in the event of a future purge of depth.

Kaberle... honestly... I wouldn't trade more than a 2nd round pick for him. He doesn't really impress me and hasn't in two or three years.

He's got Wade Redden written all over him. A guy who was good, who gets a big deal based on history, not reality.

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12-07-2010, 11:24 AM
  #152
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Has anyone watched Kaberle play the last couple of seasons, his play has really tailed off in recent years. There's a reason no other team has bit on Burke's trade bait (other then asking price), I think alot of people are really overating him.

You guys are throwing 1st round picks and prospects at a 32 year old d-man who may be a rental.

Since the lockout teams are learning every year that that 1st round picks and young prospects are gold in this league. Young cheap talent is winning Stanley Cups these days.

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12-07-2010, 11:31 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I don't understand why some posters "speak" in terms of not making a Cup run this year when in fact this team made it to the Conference finals without Markov, with Subban who had just 2 NHL games and MAB on defence? Why wouldn't the Habs try to accomplish more this year with a roster that is more familiar, coaching that is more familiar, a D that's stingy, and a lights out goalie? The Habs are gonna wait for Markov to make a playoff run? No thanks.........because that may never happen.

On Kaberle, I thought I read he was interested in an extension if Wilson goes. It maybe was Kaberle's Dad doing the talking though. And I don't believe Toronto would trade with the Habs involving a player of this magnitude.
Mainly because historically those deadline homerun deals haven't translated into a cup for the teams that made them. I watched for several years (late 90s/early 2Ks) as the Leafs emptied their coffers to load up on big name UFAs at the deadline. That's really what began their decline, before JFJ even got there and really tangled things up with a series of bad contracts featuring all those NTC/NMCs.

The result is that they never made it past the third round. I don't want to be firing blanks in a few years because we unloaded our future for a few playoff rounds. At any given time I really want to have at least two solid prospects at each of the D and forward positions on the farm.

I think I like our chances enough without making a big splash, as long as our goaltending gets hot at the right time.

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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
I hear this "showcasing" theory all the time in trade threads, but does anyone in the history of the game remember a team calling some guy up from the minors for a few games, then trading him?

I don't think teams "showcase" players like that. They play the best line-up available to them.

The ONLY exception I can think of is the occasional time where they let a back-up goalie play a bit in advance of a deal.
Yeah, I don't understand, either. Some poster once implied I was naive for thinking that teams don't really showcase players. Whereas I think it's pretty naive to think that a coach -- who has his team success and career to think about above anything else -- would start plugging weaker players into the lineup at the risk of a division title or even a playoff spot in order to ratchet that player's value up from a 3rd to a 2nd round pick.

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12-07-2010, 11:43 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I just hope we don't give up Pacioretty in a trade. I'd rather we call him up soon actually

Cammalleri Plekanec Kostitsyn
Pacioretty Gomez Gionta
Pouliot Eller Darche
Pyatt Halpern Moen

Kaberle Subban/Spacek
Hamrlik Spacek/Subban
Gill Gorges

Looks like a really solid lineup to me....on paper.
Where's Lapierre?

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12-07-2010, 11:48 AM
  #155
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I'd prefer a guy like Bieksa.
tougher, younger.
I know Kaberle is better... but also older and we don't lack offensive Ds right now.

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12-07-2010, 11:49 AM
  #156
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Gauthier understands something that I don't think Gainey did. With a system like we play, and a forward corps that scores off the rush, the need for puckmoving and mobile defensemen is crucial.

Picard, Weber, Subban, and looking for Kaberle is doing a good job of addressing this. I imagine he will bring in another one this offseason, who knows who it could be however.

We have had too slow of a defense the last couple of years which is why we spent much of our time in our own zone and without the puck.

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12-07-2010, 11:51 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
I'd prefer a guy like Bieksa.
tougher, younger.
I know Kaberle is better... but also older and we don't lack offensive Ds right now.
How often do you watch him play? Bieksa is seriously a horrible player and would not fit into our team structure at all. Not a Martin type player in the slightest.

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12-07-2010, 11:54 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
How often do you watch him play? Bieksa is seriously a horrible player and would not fit into our team structure at all. Not a Martin type player in the slightest.
What's the deal with him? A couple of years ago he was a solid top-four D and now 'Nucks fans can't get rid of him quickly enough.

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12-07-2010, 11:55 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by CanadiensforLife View Post
Where's Lapierre?
In the hospital, off course. He would have got what's coming for him, but with a 5-year delay.

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12-07-2010, 12:09 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Gauthier understands something that I don't think Gainey did. With a system like we play, and a forward corps that scores off the rush, the need for puckmoving and mobile defensemen is crucial.

Picard, Weber, Subban, and looking for Kaberle is doing a good job of addressing this. I imagine he will bring in another one this offseason, who knows who it could be however.

We have had too slow of a defense the last couple of years which is why we spent much of our time in our own zone and without the puck.
Great post Buddah, couldn't agree more.

Although I'd love Kaberle, I think we should give a stronger push to a guy like Pitkanen. Pitkanen is sooo underrated around the league, it's border line ridiculous. His defensive game is as solid as Hamrlik's but his offensive game is a notch under Markov's and Kaberle's. Also, Pitkanen is much more mobile that Hamrlik.

Could you imagine our D with a guy like for next year(If we resign Markov and he's fully recovered.

Markov Subban
Pitkanen Weber(assuming he continues to develop the way he has)
Spacek Gorges
(You can match the pairings the way you want).

Look at how much more Mobile that defense is compared to this year. You have 4 d-men who can move the puck and 4 dmen who can MOVE! Where as this year, we have only Subban and Weber(you could argue Gorges as well)

On another note, Puck moving defensemen imo has become on of the most important aspects of a successful team, you cannot have enough of these players. Having them means less time in your own zone because not only do they have a great first pass, but most are extremely mobile so zone exiting is not only achieved by passing, but also through skating.

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12-07-2010, 12:13 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Nice post
All right. Let's say I buy you selling me your player. How much do we pay for him?

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12-07-2010, 12:15 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Great post Buddah, couldn't agree more.

Although I'd love Kaberle, I think we should give a stronger push to a guy like Pitkanen. Pitkanen is sooo underrated around the league, it's border line ridiculous. His defensive game is as solid as Hamrlik's but his offensive game is a notch under Markov's and Kaberle's. Also, Pitkanen is much more mobile that Hamrlik.

Could you imagine our D with a guy like for next year(If we resign Markov and he's fully recovered.

Markov Subban
Pitkanen Weber(assuming he continues to develop the way he has)
Spacek Gorges
(You can match the pairings the way you want).

Look at how much more Mobile that defense is compared to this year. You have 4 d-men who can move the puck and 4 dmen who can MOVE! Where as this year, we have only Subban and Weber(you could argue Gorges as well)

On another note, Puck moving defensemen imo has become on of the most important aspects of a successful team, you cannot have enough of these players. Having them means less time in your own zone because not only do they have a great first pass, but most are extremely mobile so zone exiting is not only achieved by passing, but also through skating.
I don't know if Carolina want to trade Pitkanen. Even if they do, it's probably cost us too much to get Pitkanen from the Canes.

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12-07-2010, 12:22 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by JustAHabFan View Post
I don't know if Carolina want to trade Pitkanen. Even if they do, it's probably cost us too much to get Pitkanen from the Canes.
He's an UFA at the end of this year, if Carolina is out of a playoff spot, they could potentially look to move him rather than losing him for nothing.

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12-07-2010, 12:23 PM
  #164
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Poor Leafs fans and Toronto media guys...

They don't have a winning team...

They don't have picks (though they end at the bottom)...

They don't have any future...

They don't have cap space.....


All that's left is "We have this big trade asset(s) that will bring us a savior...." Talk about overhyping. BTW - didn't Burke already try to get "offers" for Kaberle in the summer ?


Toronto does have lot of good prospects stocked in the cupboard and also has a ton of cap room this summer. With Giguere of the books Toronto are able to sign Semin or Richards and still have money left over to attain other players. Spend all of 2 minutes on capgeek.com before making baseless claims.


Also Burke did not give away Kaberle last summer because he's not an idiot. Kaberle would be a dream come true for Montreal, especially if you're serious at making a cup run. He had 49 points last year and is on pace for 45 points this year on one of the leagues worst offensive teams. Kaberle is also nowhere the liability defensively that everyone makes him out to be either, he controls the tempo of a game and moves the puck like many other blue liners only wished they could.

A late 1st + a prospect like Weber would be the starting point if an inter-division trade like this was to ever actually go down.

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12-07-2010, 12:25 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
He's an UFA at the end of this year, if Carolina is out of a playoff spot, they could potentially look to move him rather than losing him for nothing.
Why Carolina couldn't sign him? If he ask for too much money, we basically get him as a rental. What do you think the asking price will be?

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12-07-2010, 12:31 PM
  #166
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Why Carolina couldn't sign him? If he ask for too much money, we basically get him as a rental. What do you think the asking price will be?
You can ask that re-signing question to any team who have impending UFAs. There is always a chance a player doesn't sign, Pitkanen is no different(unless they are already in negotiations, which I haven't anything about). Given that there is a chance to lose them for nothing, you always test the trade-market to see what is out there and then weigh the costs of attempting to sign him or lose him for nothing.

Also, just because he gets traded to the Habs(hypothetical) does not mean that Carolina cannot sign him as a UFA. In such a case, not only would they get assests back in a trade, but they also get the player their traded. So there are many reasons why a player can be traded. No player is untouchable, they all have their price...this brings me to the next point.

What would it cost to get Pitkanen? IMO, minimum a first round pick + a prospect.

Could be anything from 1st+ either of the following (Weber, Palushaj, Kristo, Pacioretty)

I'd refrain from trading Pacioretty though.

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12-07-2010, 12:31 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by youngbloodhockey View Post
Toronto does have lot of good prospects stocked in the cupboard and also has a ton of cap room this summer. With Giguere of the books Toronto are able to sign Semin or Richards and still have money left over to attain other players. Spend all of 2 minutes on capgeek.com before making baseless claims.


Also Burke did not give away Kaberle last summer because he's not an idiot. Kaberle would be a dream come true for Montreal, especially if you're serious at making a cup run. He had 49 points last year and is on pace for 45 points this year on one of the leagues worst offensive teams. Kaberle is also nowhere the liability defensively that everyone makes him out to be either, he controls the tempo of a game and moves the puck like many other blue liners only wished they could.

A late 1st + a prospect like Weber would be the starting point if an inter-division trade like this was to ever actually go down.
And a 1st + Weber is WAY overpayment for a guy you could sign at the end of the year.

I HOPE Gauthier see that.... we have a great young core coming up and this year is a pretty deep draft... no thanks Burke!

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12-07-2010, 12:33 PM
  #168
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Why all this talk of rentals? How do we know who we're going to keep in the off-season? We have enough cap space to do some damage. Kaberle is a UFA at season's end so just make the draft pick conditional on him re-signing. With Markov returning next year and one of Spacek or Hamrlik going, we have an extra spot for a defenseman. Kaberle would be ideal. Weber is young and showing potential, but we also need someone who's proven on the power play in the NHL if Markov doesn't stay healthy. That's not Weber, that's a guy like Kaberle.

I said earlier, offer Weber + 1st for Kaberle. Since he's UFA at the end of the season, offer Weber + conditional 1st on the condition that he re-signs before the draft. If he doesn't, it becomes a 2nd. They get a young defenseman and a draft pick, I believe that's fair.

But I would do it on the condition of including Gomez. If we want his salary off the books, include him and another draft pick for a high defensive prospect from Toronto. So Toronto gets some help now with both Weber and Gomez and two draft picks. They're crying out for a center. And it gives us a defenseman to add to our defensive prospect pool.

Win-win for both teams. We save $3-4 million, add that to whatever Markov is making now and you have room for Brad Richards,

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Kostitsyn
Cammalleri - Richards - Gionta
Pouliot - Eller - Darche
Moen - Halpern - Lapierre

The defense,

Hamrlik - Subban
Kaberle - Spacek
Gill - Gorges

But we need some more sand paper on defense, something Weber wasn't offering anyways. Some big bodies to challenge Philly's forwards in front of the net.

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12-07-2010, 12:35 PM
  #169
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And a 1st + Weber is WAY overpayment for a guy you could sign at the end of the year.

I HOPE Gauthier see that.... we have a great young core coming up and this year is a pretty deep draft... no thanks Burke!

Kaberle will not make it to UFA, if anyone wants him they will have to pay. He is more then content retiring in Toronto and will take a discount to do so.

This year is not a deep draft, try again.

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12-07-2010, 12:36 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Could be anything from 1st+ either of the following (Weber, Palushaj, Kristo, Pacioretty)

I'd refrain from trading Pacioretty though.
It looks similar to a package to get Kaberle. I would go for Pitkanen because he is much more physical compare to Kaberle.

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12-07-2010, 12:36 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
How often do you watch him play? Bieksa is seriously a horrible player and would not fit into our team structure at all. Not a Martin type player in the slightest.
never, but Mario Tremblay described him on radio yesterday and he was talking about two years ago + when he was consistently facing him (same division)

what's the problem with him? pulled a komisarek?

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12-07-2010, 12:38 PM
  #172
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I really want Kaberle and he would help us a lot , but I wouldnt give a big winger burning the AHL for him , he's not even signed.

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12-07-2010, 12:39 PM
  #173
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never, but Mario Tremblay described him on radio yesterday and he was talking about two years ago + when he was consistently facing him (same division)

what's the problem with him? pulled a komisarek?
Mario Tremblay also has some idea about how to properly discipline your star goalie. It doesn't mean his opinion is a good one.

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12-07-2010, 12:42 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I really want Kaberle and he would help us a lot , but I wouldnt give a big winger burning the AHL for him , he's not even signed.
If there were a Digg button here, you would be 'plus one', my friend.

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12-07-2010, 12:51 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Jedrik View Post
If there were a Digg button here, you would be 'plus one', my friend.
I agreed that we should not trade Pacioretty. The Leclaire's trade was just brutal. It just hurt too much seeing Lecalire (in Flyers' jersey) scored so many goals against us.

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