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Old
06-20-2004, 09:28 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
As far as I can tell most players at that age are not very good defensively, lack consistancy and are not very physical. Lundmark was supposed to be consistant, physical, but look at him now... Players at 18 can really develop in a couple of years. Wolski seems to have the tools--size, character, skating, offense, hockey sense to develop into a good hockey plyer. I, by no means, suggest that he is ready now to contribute at NHL, but in a couple of years he can be a very good player, especially if he works on his defensive game and starts being more aggressive. In contrast you take a guy like Lundmark who lacks size, has good scoring touch and is very aggressive, he comes to NHL realizes that he is totally out of his league, losses his aggressian and becomes nothing, a useless roster filler. So you might say that if a player is not aggressive at 17, he will never aquire that trait, but I say that players CAN aquire and they can as well lose their aggression trait. But one thing Wolski won't lose is his size. To me Tukonen and Wolski don't have any more question marks then the rest of the players in the draft. Even if Wolski doesn't ever play aggressive he can still be a good scorer with good size and speed. I can't really expect all skilled players and top scorers to be overly physical and aggressive. That is something I expect from 3rd and 4th line guys as well as most defensemen.
Would it be fair to say that you have a good "feeling" about the guy? Everyone has question marks, but something tells you this is the guy who will put it all together. That's not a knock, because intuition is a primary tool that I use in making judgments on players.

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06-20-2004, 09:36 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
Would it be fair to say that you have a good "feeling" about the guy? Everyone has question marks, but something tells you this is the guy who will put it all together. That's not a knock, because intuition is a primary tool that I use in making judgments on players.
Yep fair enough, doesn't mean I am right though. But I have a feeling maybe Edge favors players who are more physical over the ones who aren't as physical.

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06-20-2004, 09:38 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
Yep fair enough, doesn't mean I am right though. But I have a feeling maybe Edge favors players who are more physical over the ones who aren't as physical.
No, I would say, (if I might be so bold) is that EDGE prefers players who compete on a nightly basis. In juniors, Lundmark was seen as that kind of player, as were Malhotra and Cherneski.

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06-20-2004, 09:59 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by jas
No, I would say, (if I might be so bold) is that EDGE prefers players who compete on a nightly basis. In juniors, Lundmark was seen as that kind of player, as were Malhotra and Cherneski.
Who doesn't like a player who competes on daily basis? The problem is that most players are somewhat inconsistant. Not just on game to game basis but also on shift to shift basis. Some of course are more than others.

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06-20-2004, 10:17 PM
  #30
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I agree with what Edge is saying. This organization has not been consistent when it comes to effort for a good 7 years now. I understand everyone wants to see top two line potential guys drafted, but i don't agree with drafting perimeter players who will not be consistent along the boards or in high traffic areas.

Whoever we take in the top rounds should already be on track to handle the physical play in the Pro's.

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06-20-2004, 10:20 PM
  #31
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As far as I can tell most players at that age are not very good defensively, lack consistancy and are not very physical.
But your forgetting something, a player can only be inconsitent if there are two sides to his play. When a player is physical one night and not the next, that is inconsitent. When a player isn't physical at all that is not inconsistent, that is nonexistent.


Quote:
Lundmark was supposed to be consistant, physical, but look at him now... Players at 18 can really develop in a couple of years.
You're right, because 99.9% of the players in the world go the reverse way. When the competition gets bigger, and they get smaller their physical play goes down for a variety of reasons. I can't think of a prospect in the last 15 years who didn't have the slightest physical side who suddenly found it as he went up the pro-hockey ladder.

Quote:
Wolski seems to have the tools--size, character, skating, offense, hockey sense to develop into a good hockey plyer. I, by no means, suggest that he is ready now to contribute at NHL, but in a couple of years he can be a very good player, especially if he works on his defensive game and starts being more aggressive.
Yes and that's one reason why his progress has been so disappointing. Because he has all those tools but they just aren't working. His offense is inconistent but at least there. Defense and physical play are non-existent. If he makes it all, it will be as a one way player. It's just not in his personality to be aggressive, I don't think I can emphasize that enough. If you take him, you take him on the hope he can find consistency with offensive. You don't take him waiting for those other attributes because the odds of them suddenly appearing are slim to none.

Quote:
In contrast you take a guy like Lundmark who lacks size, has good scoring touch and is very aggressive, he comes to NHL realizes that he is totally out of his league, losses his aggressian and becomes nothing, a useless roster filler. So you might say that if a player is not aggressive at 17, he will never aquire that trait, but I say that players CAN aquire and they can as well lose their aggression trait.

Alright than name some players who had no physical side who suddenly found it at the pro level?

I think that's where the problem lies, you'd be hard pressed to find more than 1% of players who played like Wolski who suddenly found a mean streak. And you can't use player who at least exhibited one.

Quote:
But one thing Wolski won't lose is his size. To me Tukonen and Wolski don't have any more question marks then the rest of the players in the draft.
You can't teach size mentality? That's a VERY dangerous approach to take when drafting. Based on that Jeff Toms should have been a bluechip prospect.

Quote:
Even if Wolski doesn't ever play aggressive he can still be a good scorer with good size and speed. I can't really expect all skilled players and top scorers to be overly physical and aggressive. That is something I expect from 3rd and 4th line guys as well as most defensemen.
{Sigh} this is where it gets "fun".

The problem is that Wolski is a one trick pony who's only trick just isn't consistent enough to warrant a higher end pick on him or trading up to get him at this point. Not with the other options out there.

Now someone like Tukonen you can at least debate that with because even if he isn't a scorer, he has many other areas he brings to the table. Wolski just doesn't.

And you assume that being physical and aggressive means fighting and banging people. No it means fighting for lose pucks, going into the corners and not being taken out of a game when someone gets rought. Take a guy like Steve Yzerman or Pat Lafontaine. Those guys BATTLE every single night, but they aren't fighters or grinders.

Going with skilled players who don't want to exert themselves is EXACTLY how we got into this mess in the first. Now you wanna draft one not even 3 months after we just got rid of some?

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Old
06-20-2004, 10:21 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas
No, I would say, (if I might be so bold) is that EDGE prefers players who compete on a nightly basis. In juniors, Lundmark was seen as that kind of player, as were Malhotra and Cherneski.
That is EXACTLY what I am saying. Guys like Nigel Dawes and Martin St. Louis COME to play on a nightly basis. As the Ranger teams of the past 7 years have proved, no amount of skill in the world will overcome people who don't want to compete.

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06-20-2004, 10:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13
I agree with what Edge is saying. This organization has not been consistent when it comes to effort for a good 7 years now. I understand everyone wants to see top two line potential guys drafted, but i don't agree with drafting perimeter players who will not be consistent along the boards or in high traffic areas.

Whoever we take in the top rounds should already be on track to handle the physical play in the Pro's.

No where does it say that the guy who competes can't have skill. Unfortunaly what DOES happen is guys with skills ride it for most of their life and never learn to knuckle down and compete with the challange gets more difficult.

If Wolski showed he is willing to compete he's a top 6 selection, but he's continually backed away from that stuff and it's going on for the better part of TWO ohl seasons at this point.

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06-20-2004, 10:38 PM
  #34
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Maybe you are right, but what about all these reports from the scouts that he is great in front of the net and along the boards? That sounds to me like he plays some physical hockey and can take the punishment by standing in front of the net. And he is still a young kid, he is working out and bulking up. I am not saying we should take him at #6, but I would love to get him at #10 to 15.

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06-20-2004, 10:52 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
Maybe you are right, but what about all these reports from the scouts that he is great in front of the net and along the boards? That sounds to me like he plays some physical hockey and can take the punishment by standing in front of the net. And he is still a young kid, he is working out and bulking up. I am not saying we should take him at #6, but I would love to get him at #10 to 15.
I haven't heard anything but reports that talked about his lack of physical play,etc.

I just think there are better chances to take if you're gonna move up. Heck if we're gonna go for a high risk, high reward than we might as well go with someone like Radulov.

One thing to understand about the scouting reports you "read" online, they aren't accurate. Everyone is so paranoid about getting sued, that no one wants to slam a prospect. In fact that was one of the reasons why i stopped writing here. I wasn't interested in toning down my views if i thought a kid lacked something, but on the other hand {and understandbly so} hockeys future wasn't interested in getting sued and losing contacts.

Heck take a look at the profiles on the rangers website for proof of that. Look at how carefully worded they say Schultz isn't really a physical player.

It's all about legalities and politics in this business. That's something you gotta understand when reading certain "reports". That was what made hockey's future so popular. We told it like it was. But of course when you're trying to go corporate and you start hiring new people who don't get the organizations identity you begin to lose that.

That's one reason I don't even bother to read the articles here anymore. They're so bland in an effort not to offend that you might as well just read the options out there.

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Old
06-20-2004, 10:54 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
Maybe you are right, but what about all these reports from the scouts that he is great in front of the net and along the boards? That sounds to me like he plays some physical hockey and can take the punishment by standing in front of the net. And he is still a young kid, he is working out and bulking up. I am not saying we should take him at #6, but I would love to get him at #10 to 15.
I would be more inclined to move up and get Schremp, Stafford, Picard or even Radulov in that range, as opposed to Wolski. And, considering the group of players that Sather traded for at the deadline - Kozak, Helminen, Moore, Liffiton - and the players in the system already - Taylor, Guenin, Baranka, even a competitor like Dawes - Wolski doesn't seem to fit in with the mindset that Sather and company are putting together.

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06-20-2004, 10:56 PM
  #37
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i think that is what we need to remember. The Rangers are looking for very specific personalities from these kids.

That's one reason Ladd impressed them so much.

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06-20-2004, 11:01 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
I haven't heard anything but reports that talked about his lack of physical play,etc.

I just think there are better chances to take if you're gonna move up. Heck if we're gonna go for a high risk, high reward than we might as well go with someone like Radulov.

One thing to understand about the scouting reports you "read" online, they aren't accurate. Everyone is so paranoid about getting sued, that no one wants to slam a prospect. In fact that was one of the reasons why i stopped writing here. I wasn't interested in toning down my views if i thought a kid lacked something, but on the other hand {and understandbly so} hockeys future wasn't interested in getting sued and losing contacts.

Heck take a look at the profiles on the rangers website for proof of that. Look at how carefully worded they say Schultz isn't really a physical player.

It's all about legalities and politics in this business. That's something you gotta understand when reading certain "reports". That was what made hockey's future so popular. We told it like it was. But of course when you're trying to go corporate and you start hiring new people who don't get the organizations identity you begin to lose that.

That's one reason I don't even bother to read the articles here anymore. They're so bland in an effort not to offend that you might as well just read the options out there.
Yeah I know what you mean, but it wasn't in HF, it was THN and it basically praises his grittiness, here is a link: http://www.thehockeynews.com/draft-preview/11-20.html

19. Wojtek Wolski
Born: Feb. 24, 1986, Zabrze, Poland
2003-04: Brampton
Pos: LW
Ht: 6-3
Wt: 200
Shoots: L
Central Scouting: No. 5 North American skater
Here's a hockey movie in the making. The story line is: a young family leaves communist Poland for a better life and makes their way to Canada.
The family assimilates into Canadian society by taking their sons to the rink. The second son uses hand-me-down skates and becomes a prospect with the potential to be a solid NHLer.
Wojtek Wolski has the size it takes to be an effective player in the NHL. He has high-end skill. He is strong along the boards and is hard to budge from in front of the net. Scouts believe he has the talent to be successful, but like all young players, he must be more consistent.
"He's great along the boards and in front of the net," said a GM. Added a scout: "There is potential here and with the right coaching, he could be an effective second-line player."
Scouts like Wolski's even-keeled nature and appreciate what he has, knowing what his parents went through to put him in this position.
"We talk about skill, but what happens at home is a big part of the player," said a scout. "This kid has his head screwed on right."
The Hockey News says: Character forward


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06-20-2004, 11:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
i think that is what we need to remember. The Rangers are looking for very specific personalities from these kids.

That's one reason Ladd impressed them so much.
That's why when I've looked at players that I would expect the Rangers to draft, the one's who are said to have a willingness to battle seem to be the ones that standout. Any player with the label of soft or inconsistent (Bruce Graham? Bryan Bickell?), I do not expect to be selected.

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06-20-2004, 11:20 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prucha73
Yeah I know what you mean, but it wasn't in HF, it was THN and it basically praises his grittiness, here is a link: http://www.thehockeynews.com/draft-preview/11-20.html

19. Wojtek Wolski
Born: Feb. 24, 1986, Zabrze, Poland
2003-04: Brampton
Pos: LW
Ht: 6-3
Wt: 200
Shoots: L
Central Scouting: No. 5 North American skater
Here's a hockey movie in the making. The story line is: a young family leaves communist Poland for a better life and makes their way to Canada.
The family assimilates into Canadian society by taking their sons to the rink. The second son uses hand-me-down skates and becomes a prospect with the potential to be a solid NHLer.
Wojtek Wolski has the size it takes to be an effective player in the NHL. He has high-end skill. He is strong along the boards and is hard to budge from in front of the net. Scouts believe he has the talent to be successful, but like all young players, he must be more consistent.
"He's great along the boards and in front of the net," said a GM. Added a scout: "There is potential here and with the right coaching, he could be an effective second-line player."
Scouts like Wolski's even-keeled nature and appreciate what he has, knowing what his parents went through to put him in this position.
"We talk about skill, but what happens at home is a big part of the player," said a scout. "This kid has his head screwed on right."
The Hockey News says: Character forward

I've never seen the kid battle along the boards or stay in front of the net. Not in two years. In fact many scouts said "we want to see he's alive out there" and similar comments.

If some gm thinks he is gonna hang out in front of the net and work the corners they are gonna be in for a VERY rude awakening.

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06-21-2004, 01:38 PM
  #41
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More on Wolski: http://www.internationalscouting.com...reepreview.doc

Quote:
WOJTEK WOLSKI
There's no doubt that Wolski has the tools and talent it takes to play in the NHL and it's a question of when. His play was a real bright spot on what could be considered one of the most under achieving squads in the OHL this season. ISS scouts will be the first to admit that Wolskiís not your typical power forward, like Ladd, however he has revealed his ability to take his game to another level and provide leadership abilities not usually bestowed open a kid in his draft year. He is a dangerous finisher who drives hard to the net, already has a pro shot and soft hands. Humble/easy to like kid, he is a complete person with a good attitude, which should make him even more attractive to teams trying to decide whom to select. The only knock on him is a lack of consistency.

NHL Potential: 1st line goal scoring winger. You donít get many 18 year old forwards already at this stage of their development.

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06-21-2004, 05:04 PM
  #42
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More on Wolski from http://www.nhl.com/futures/2004draft...tch061904.html

Quote:
Wojtek Wolski, LW, Brampton (OHL) -- Wolski has the size needed to be an effective player in the NHL and his skill level is more than decent. He is strong along the boards and is hard to budge from in front of the net. Consistency was an issue this season, however.


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06-22-2004, 01:03 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Prucha73
your taking somthing from the NHL website? Like they'd ever slam a prospect...

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06-22-2004, 01:05 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by xander
your taking somthing from the NHL website? Like they'd ever slam a prospect...
They might not mention flaws, but why would they give false praise?

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06-22-2004, 01:08 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Prucha73
They might not mention flaws, but why would they give false praise?
Go to bed already, how many posts you up to today?

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06-22-2004, 01:10 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13
Go to bed already, how many posts you up to today?
You are the only one who is counting. I should make you my Official Post Counter.

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06-22-2004, 01:11 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Prucha73
You are the only one who is counting. I should make you my Official Post Counter.
25 per day. School out?

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06-22-2004, 01:21 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13
25 per day. School out?
At least I don't post pointless messages like that one and annoy other posters or try to harrass them or insult them like you do.

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06-22-2004, 09:54 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Prucha73
At least I don't post pointless messages like that one and annoy other posters or try to harrass them or insult them like you do.
Relax friend, you know i'm your #1 fan

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06-22-2004, 02:49 PM
  #50
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Does anyone think this is realistic from either teams point of view:
LA gets #6 and #37
and
NYR gets #11 and 1st rounder next year???

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