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Old
06-13-2011, 10:35 PM
  #326
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06-14-2011, 11:51 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I forgot Mousasi. Not sure what that kids angle is. He goes on a huge winning streak dominating both middleweight and light heavyweight, but then he lost to Muhammad Lawal which I can handle. What I can't handle is him having a draw with Keith Jardine who is washed up in my books.
Mousasi's problem is that he is highly one dimensional, an Elite MMA striker, with no takedown defense at all, mind you King Mo isn't exactly a slouch in the Wrestling department, but he was took down multiple times by Sokoudjou, a guy who I have yet to see him use his Judo in a fight. With all that said, his KO of Jacare by upkick is still one of my all time favourite KO's.

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06-14-2011, 12:01 PM
  #328
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Ughh, I hope not.

I absolutely despise Bisping.


And, as for up-and-comers, my favorite has to be Rory MacDonald.
Agreed on Macdonald, those slams on Diaz were awesome.

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06-14-2011, 12:02 PM
  #329
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What happens if Overeem doesn't win the tournament?
In theory, the winner or person who beats him would be the next title challenger (it happened in Pride with Wanderlai Silva during one of their Grand Prix tournaments) but as Zuffa now owns Strikeforce it's really hard to see what their next step would be.

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Well Bisping might be actually as far I recall. But it will not be for this upcoming season. If you remember he was the coach for the TUF season that was the USA vs England. So this is actually Bisping's second go around as a coach. Josh Koscheck was also a coach, but that was after Bisping.
He's not. Both Matt Serra coached against Matt Hughes and Forrest Griffin coached against Rampage before the USA v. England season.

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06-14-2011, 02:26 PM
  #330
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In theory, the winner or person who beats him would be the next title challenger (it happened in Pride with Wanderlai Silva during one of their Grand Prix tournaments) but as Zuffa now owns Strikeforce it's really hard to see what their next step would be.


He's not. Both Matt Serra coached against Matt Hughes and Forrest Griffin coached against Rampage before the USA v. England season.
I wish they'd turn Strikeforce into a proper feeder league, I think it'd be pretty successful, but the problem is is that Strikeforce's divisions, with the exception of their HW and LW are EXTREMELY THIN, and Bellator has really ramped up its recruiting efforts lately and has, arguably, the best stable of fighters outside of the UFC. MFC and Strikeforce are probably close but that tournament format and the 100K grand prize is a huge draw for people looking to prove their worth outside of Zuffa.

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06-14-2011, 04:09 PM
  #331
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Mousasi's problem is that he is highly one dimensional, an Elite MMA striker, with no takedown defense at all, mind you King Mo isn't exactly a slouch in the Wrestling department, but he was took down multiple times by Sokoudjou, a guy who I have yet to see him use his Judo in a fight. With all that said, his KO of Jacare by upkick is still one of my all time favourite KO's.
Yeah Mousasi's problems is wrestling and take down defense in general. He actually has a pretty good ground game from what I heard Jiu Jitsu wise. He has 13 wins by submission.


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I wish they'd turn Strikeforce into a proper feeder league, I think it'd be pretty successful, but the problem is is that Strikeforce's divisions, with the exception of their HW and LW are EXTREMELY THIN, and Bellator has really ramped up its recruiting efforts lately and has, arguably, the best stable of fighters outside of the UFC. MFC and Strikeforce are probably close but that tournament format and the 100K grand prize is a huge draw for people looking to prove their worth outside of Zuffa.
I like some of the fighters they have in the weight classes below HW and LHW.

Nick Diaz, Jacare Souza, Gilbert Melendez, Cyborg Santos, Josh "Punk" Thompson, King Mo Lawal, KJ Noons, Marius Zaromskis (who is also the Dream Welterweight Champ), Benji Radach, Justin Wilcox, Jorge Gurgel, Luke Rockhold, Robbie Lawler, Jorge Masvidal, Tim Kennedy, Paul Daley, Scott Smith, Matt Lindland, Cung Le, Melvin Manhoef, Tarec Saffiedine, Jason High, Maximo Blanco, Tyron Woodley, JZ Cavalcante, Shinya Aoki...

Yeah I am a fan of what Bellator is putting together for sure.

I would definitely put Strikefore well clear of the MFC. I like the MFC, but yeah Strikeforce IMO is head and shoulders above them.


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06-15-2011, 10:36 AM
  #332
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I wish they'd turn Strikeforce into a proper feeder league, I think it'd be pretty successful, but the problem is is that Strikeforce's divisions, with the exception of their HW and LW are EXTREMELY THIN, and Bellator has really ramped up its recruiting efforts lately and has, arguably, the best stable of fighters outside of the UFC. MFC and Strikeforce are probably close but that tournament format and the 100K grand prize is a huge draw for people looking to prove their worth outside of Zuffa.
Strikeforce has done a few things right like the Challengers series and being on CBS but in the end promoting a fighter who is not in the UFC is almost an impossible task. They're just that entrenched in the minds of fans as being the MMA brand. Just look at the WEC...despite being on Versus for three years to casual fans it's essentially Urijah Faber, Jose Aldo and some other guys. So I do agree that it would be nice to see some sort of feeder league and get the big Strikeforce names over to the UFC when their contracts allow it. Really would like to see more people aware of talents like Gilbert Melendez or King Mo or Alistair Overeem.

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06-15-2011, 10:43 AM
  #333
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Strikeforce has done a few things right like the Challengers series and being on CBS but in the end promoting a fighter who is not in the UFC is almost an impossible task. They're just that entrenched in the minds of fans as being the MMA brand. Just look at the WEC...despite being on Versus for three years to casual fans it's essentially Urijah Faber, Jose Aldo and some other guys. So I do agree that it would be nice to see some sort of feeder league and get the big Strikeforce names over to the UFC when their contracts allow it. Really would like to see more people aware of talents like Gilbert Melendez or King Mo or Alistair Overeem.
The problem that will happen if you just make Strikeforce a feeder league is it probably goes under. You'll lose all your big sponsors and your PPV is out the window.

Granted if anyone were to make it work it would be Dana White and company, but I think you probably have to abandon the Strikeforce brand and call it UFC lite or something. It will be tough to do.

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06-15-2011, 10:59 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard View Post
Yeah Mousasi's problems is wrestling and take down defense in general. He actually has a pretty good ground game from what I heard Jiu Jitsu wise. He has 13 wins by submission.




I like some of the fighters they have in the weight classes below HW and LHW.

Nick Diaz, Jacare Souza, Gilbert Melendez, Cyborg Santos, Josh "Punk" Thompson, King Mo Lawal, KJ Noons, Marius Zaromskis (who is also the Dream Welterweight Champ), Benji Radach, Justin Wilcox, Jorge Gurgel, Luke Rockhold, Robbie Lawler, Jorge Masvidal, Tim Kennedy, Paul Daley, Scott Smith, Matt Lindland, Cung Le, Melvin Manhoef, Tarec Saffiedine, Jason High, Maximo Blanco, Tyron Woodley, JZ Cavalcante, Shinya Aoki...

Yeah I am a fan of what Bellator is putting together for sure.

I would definitely put Strikefore well clear of the MFC. I like the MFC, but yeah Strikeforce IMO is head and shoulders above them.
Fair point, but I still feel like strikeforce is lacking and even though it was bought by Zuffa, I feel like Bellator has stolen its lunch money. A merge now seems inevitable.

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Strikeforce has done a few things right like the Challengers series and being on CBS but in the end promoting a fighter who is not in the UFC is almost an impossible task. They're just that entrenched in the minds of fans as being the MMA brand. Just look at the WEC...despite being on Versus for three years to casual fans it's essentially Urijah Faber, Jose Aldo and some other guys. So I do agree that it would be nice to see some sort of feeder league and get the big Strikeforce names over to the UFC when their contracts allow it. Really would like to see more people aware of talents like Gilbert Melendez or King Mo or Alistair Overeem.
WEC definitely suffered even after the Zuffa purchase, but I think part of it was that it was seen as just an excuse to keep the lighter weight classes separate...I also feel like WEC's exposure was a bit limited despite being on versus (or perhaps because it was on Versus) as I didn't really start following WEC until 4-5 cards before the merger after catching some event replays on TheScore.

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The problem that will happen if you just make Strikeforce a feeder league is it probably goes under. You'll lose all your big sponsors and your PPV is out the window.

Granted if anyone were to make it work it would be Dana White and company, but I think you probably have to abandon the Strikeforce brand and call it UFC lite or something. It will be tough to do.
I don't know, getting sponsors for the smaller orgs which are de facto feeder leagues for the UFC anyways is still possible, I can't imagine why Strikeforce would have more difficulty in doing it. Maybe Strikeforce needs a re-branding, like calling it the Ultimate Challenger's Championship or League and tie it into their TUF series.


How cool would it be if they embraced the Grand Prix concept and had tournaments in the various weight classes with the winners getting grand prix champ belts, a big fat bonus and a UFC fight contract? It'd be a lot like Bellator is now, but it'd be a good way to revitalize the strikeforce brand and steal back some of the thunder fromn Bellator.

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06-15-2011, 11:09 AM
  #335
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Fair point, but I still feel like strikeforce is lacking and even though it was bought by Zuffa, I feel like Bellator has stolen its lunch money. A merge now seems inevitable.



WEC definitely suffered even after the Zuffa purchase, but I think part of it was that it was seen as just an excuse to keep the lighter weight classes separate...I also feel like WEC's exposure was a bit limited despite being on versus (or perhaps because it was on Versus) as I didn't really start following WEC until 4-5 cards before the merger after catching some event replays on TheScore.



I don't know, getting sponsors for the smaller orgs which are de facto feeder leagues for the UFC anyways is still possible, I can't imagine why Strikeforce would have more difficulty in doing it. Maybe Strikeforce needs a re-branding, like calling it the Ultimate Challenger's Championship or League and tie it into their TUF series.


How cool would it be if they embraced the Grand Prix concept and had tournaments in the various weight classes with the winners getting grand prix champ belts, a big fat bonus and a UFC fight contract? It'd be a lot like Bellator is now, but it'd be a good way to revitalize the strikeforce brand and steal back some of the thunder fromn Bellator.
If you get rid of all your top fighters the sponsorship won't be as good. You'll still get some sponsorship, but you could kiss away all the top ones you have now.

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06-15-2011, 11:16 AM
  #336
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If you get rid of all your top fighters the sponsorship won't be as good. You'll still get some sponsorship, but you could kiss away all the top ones you have now.

I don't think there's any doubt about that, but if it's all UFC, they might just have all the same sposnors anyways.

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06-15-2011, 11:36 AM
  #337
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I don't know, getting sponsors for the smaller orgs which are de facto feeder leagues for the UFC anyways is still possible, I can't imagine why Strikeforce would have more difficulty in doing it. Maybe Strikeforce needs a re-branding, like calling it the Ultimate Challenger's Championship or League and tie it into their TUF series.


In some ways they already had a feeder league with WEC. Especially before they got rid of the higher weight divisions in WEC. They closed off the bigger weight classes and then basically just absorbed them. So I honestly do not get why you want to turn it into a feeder thing. They will just merge it before they do that. IMO they would have merged it already if they did not have the big wrench of having a partnership contract with Showtime for a couple more years. After that is up they probably will merge them, despite what they say.

As I said I like what Bellator is doing a lot. But IMO you are pumping up Bellator too much and also devaluing the Strikeforce overall roster too much.

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06-15-2011, 12:57 PM
  #338
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The problem that will happen if you just make Strikeforce a feeder league is it probably goes under. You'll lose all your big sponsors and your PPV is out the window.

Granted if anyone were to make it work it would be Dana White and company, but I think you probably have to abandon the Strikeforce brand and call it UFC lite or something. It will be tough to do.
The UFC will dissolve Strikeforce at one point or another. Zuffa didn't buy it for the brand visibility (Pride) or to help stave off competition (WEC); they bought it for the fighters. Between the two companies 95% of the top MMA fighters in the word are under the Zuffa banner and other than a flyweight division (which neither company has) you can count the number of top-ten fighters in a weight class outside of the UFC and Strikeforce on one hand. However keeping Strikeforce running as a feeder league for the time being helps keep any new competitor at bay by sitting on Showtime (who have had success with MMA between Elite XC and Strikeforce) and keeping fighters off the market. It's not a permanent answer but one which helps the UFC get bigger and maintain more sponsorship dollars in the long run.

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06-15-2011, 01:47 PM
  #339
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The UFC will dissolve Strikeforce at one point or another. Zuffa didn't buy it for the brand visibility (Pride) or to help stave off competition (WEC); they bought it for the fighters. Between the two companies 95% of the top MMA fighters in the word are under the Zuffa banner and other than a flyweight division (which neither company has) you can count the number of top-ten fighters in a weight class outside of the UFC and Strikeforce on one hand. However keeping Strikeforce running as a feeder league for the time being helps keep any new competitor at bay by sitting on Showtime (who have had success with MMA between Elite XC and Strikeforce) and keeping fighters off the market. It's not a permanent answer but one which helps the UFC get bigger and maintain more sponsorship dollars in the long run.
Just thinking out loud, but is it not possible to continue to run Strikeforce the way they were? Would it really be the end of the world to keep them separate and then once a year have a showdown?

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06-15-2011, 01:54 PM
  #340
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Just thinking out loud, but is it not possible to continue to run Strikeforce the way they were? Would it really be the end of the world to keep them separate and then once a year have a showdown?
I would personally rather they do that and as you say have kind of cross over super fights. But I have a feeling in 2 years when the Showtime contract is up they just merge it into the UFC.

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06-15-2011, 01:55 PM
  #341
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The UFC will dissolve Strikeforce at one point or another. Zuffa didn't buy it for the brand visibility (Pride) or to help stave off competition (WEC); they bought it for the fighters. Between the two companies 95% of the top MMA fighters in the word are under the Zuffa banner and other than a flyweight division (which neither company has) you can count the number of top-ten fighters in a weight class outside of the UFC and Strikeforce on one hand. However keeping Strikeforce running as a feeder league for the time being helps keep any new competitor at bay by sitting on Showtime (who have had success with MMA between Elite XC and Strikeforce) and keeping fighters off the market. It's not a permanent answer but one which helps the UFC get bigger and maintain more sponsorship dollars in the long run.
How come you never post in the MMA forum? Lord knows you cant be all that busy on the Wild board.

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06-15-2011, 02:06 PM
  #342
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Strikeforces main problem was being unable to make new stars and being stupid and using lousy local talent to fill out undercards on both SF and Challengers cards just shows that.

Like take a look at the card top to bottom of the next Challengers card

MAIN CARD
Caros Fodor vs. James Terry
Ryan Couture vs. Matt Ricehouse
Lorenz Larkin vs. Gian Villante
Antwain Britt vs. Danillo Villefort
Julia Budd vs. Germaine de Randamie

PRELIMINARY CARD (un-aired)
Jason High vs. Quinn Mulhern
Derek Brunson vs. Jeremy Hamilton
Travis Bush vs. Yuri Villefort
Keith Berry vs. Trevor Smith

Thats awesome especially with really good young talents like Mulhern, Yuri Villefort, Jason High, Vilante, Britt/Danillo Villefort is an awesome match.

Thats how you make stars

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06-15-2011, 02:14 PM
  #343
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Strikeforces main problem was being unable to make new stars and being stupid and using lousy local talent to fill out undercards on both SF and Challengers cards just shows that.
Like take a look at the card top to bottom of the next Challengers card

MAIN CARD
Caros Fodor vs. James Terry
Ryan Couture vs. Matt Ricehouse
Lorenz Larkin vs. Gian Villante
Antwain Britt vs. Danillo Villefort
Julia Budd vs. Germaine de Randamie

PRELIMINARY CARD (un-aired)
Jason High vs. Quinn Mulhern
Derek Brunson vs. Jeremy Hamilton
Travis Bush vs. Yuri Villefort
Keith Berry vs. Trevor Smith

Thats awesome especially with really good young talents like Mulhern, Yuri Villefort, Jason High, Vilante, Britt/Danillo Villefort is an awesome match.

Thats how you make stars
UFC does this everytime they come to Canada. They always fill the card with a bunch of Canadians that were cut a month before.

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06-15-2011, 02:19 PM
  #344
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UFC does this everytime they come to Canada. They always fill the card with a bunch of Canadians that were cut a month before.
I was thinking the same thing. Also on the Challenger type shows, they are smaller shows without big draws. You put on some local favourites and it sells extra tickets IMO.

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06-15-2011, 04:48 PM
  #345
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UFC does this everytime they come to Canada. They always fill the card with a bunch of Canadians that were cut a month before.
Like who?

UFC 129 had Jabouin, Makdessi, MacDonald, Menjivar and Claude Patrick on the FB prelims for UFC 129 and all of those dudes fought relevant opponents that suited their skill levels. All of those dudes are up and comers with the exception of MacDonald and even then apart from like a year stint hes been a steady in the UFC, beating who hes supposed to and losing to hes supposed to.

UFC 131 had Ring, K-Sos, Bongfeldt and Stout. with the exception of Ring/Bongfeldt all of them had multiple fights in the UFC fighting against good fighters.

Compare that to the challengers undercard for Woodley vs Saffiedine which had 12 undercard fights including 3 amateur bouts. all of which were local fighters with the exception of John Salter

Theres quite a difference

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06-15-2011, 04:52 PM
  #346
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How is it being stupid for Strikeforce to bring in local talent? They were for the most part a semi regional organization... Once you start bringing in big stars for your undercard, you better have the financial backing to do so... Main reason Affliction, Elite XC went under... Strikeforce has done extremely well for themselves.

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06-15-2011, 05:04 PM
  #347
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Like who?

UFC 129 had Jabouin, Makdessi, MacDonald, Menjivar and Claude Patrick on the FB prelims for UFC 129 and all of those dudes fought relevant opponents that suited their skill levels. All of those dudes are up and comers with the exception of MacDonald and even then apart from like a year stint hes been a steady in the UFC, beating who hes supposed to and losing to hes supposed to.

UFC 131 had Ring, K-Sos, Bongfeldt and Stout. with the exception of Ring/Bongfeldt all of them had multiple fights in the UFC fighting against good fighters.

Compare that to the challengers undercard for Woodley vs Saffiedine which had 12 undercard fights including 3 amateur bouts. all of which were local fighters with the exception of John Salter

Theres quite a difference
Loiseau, Macdonald, Hague, Goulet come to mind of guys who were out of the UFC and brought back for canadian dates.

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06-15-2011, 05:12 PM
  #348
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The same happens when they go to England or Australlia. I'd assume the one in brazil will be stacked with brazillians as well.

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06-15-2011, 05:33 PM
  #349
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Loiseau, Macdonald, Hague, Goulet come to mind of guys who were out of the UFC and brought back for canadian dates.
Hague, MacDonald, Loiseau were all short term replacements and were convenient because they didn't need a visa and already held licenses in Quebec. Same thing with Doerkson coming in late and fighting Lawler.

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06-15-2011, 05:35 PM
  #350
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Goulet was never cut before his last fight with Marcus Davis as he got got injured after the Mike Swick fight in 2008 training for Dong Hyun Kim at UFC 100

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