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Lidstrom: Can he catch Harvey?

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Old
12-11-2010, 01:17 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
He has? He won 6 Norris Trophies. Plus he was a 2nd team all-star last year when it was obvious to me that Pronger had the better year. Not to mention a wealth of people on here would have picked Yzerman for the 2002 Conn Smythe. Lidstrom has never been shafted for anything IMO.
Last season, Lidstrom was voted the "best defensive defenseman" in the league by his peers. His offense slipped a bit, but I think he still deserved the AS team. I would have had Pronger on the team over Mike Green, who I think deserved an AS in 2008-09, but was just defensively too far behind guys putting up numbers almost as good in 09-10 to warrant a spot.


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12-11-2010, 01:22 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
The only award that was close was Rob Blake's Norris, but that is only because people look back and see Lidstroms career now and make that decision.

I remember about two years ago some people in the media stating, "Lidstrom is the second best defenseman of all time". Lidstrom always got his due respect and then some
He didn't "always" get his respect. I still remember that most people considered him an offense-only defenseman until he shut down Lindros in the 1997 playoffs, because he wasn't physical.

But yes, he has gotten respect for quite some time now.

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12-11-2010, 01:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
imo, lidstrom probably should have won the '98 and '09 norris.

lidstrom is a better offensive player than chara, but i think lidstrom's defensive numbers were also better than chara's even though boston was the best defensive team and DRW were 19th best.

difference in goaltending between DRW (osgood/conklin) and boston (thomas/fernandez) was about the largest possible.

boston's goalies: .927 sv%
DRW's goalies: .896 sv%

that is a huge difference, but lidstrom was still scored on less than chara at ES (after adjusting for TOI).



i think chara won partly on the strength of good press from early in the season, which also benefited steve mason and shea weber.

chara started the season better than lidstrom, but was a minus player after january. lidstrom was better later in the season.

steven mason was great until january (especially vs eastern teams), but was only average after he got mononucleosis in january. but all the good press he got made him runner up for vezina and nearly a hart finalist (4th place). i don't think he was any better overall than pekka rinne, who was not even a calder finalist.

shea weber also got loads of good press early in the season (11g, 14a, +12 in his 1st 26 games), which led to him beating duncan keith in all star and norris voting even though keith was better. imo, keith could have been a norris finalist in '09.
I think Chara got a ton of credit for Boston's excellent penalty kill two years ago and it was the deciding factor (along with the media being desperate to give it to someone but Lidstrom). At least Chara won and not Mike Green though. Lidstrom was 3rd behind Green, which was ridiculous. (I would have voted Green 3rd in 2009 btw, though not top 4 in 2010).

Also, while the goalie difference is a good point, I just find it hard to believe that Boston goalies have been as good as their save percentages indicate for the last several seasons - it just seems fishy to see two goalies from the same team lead the league in save % two seasons in a row. Either it's something about the way Boston's defense plays (led by Chara) or something about the way shots are recorded in Boston.

I do agree with you that getting lots of press early in the season goes a long way towards award voting. Way more than it should. For that reason, I expect Stamkos to be a Hart finalist, even if he goes totally cold for the rest of the season.

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12-11-2010, 01:56 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
imo, lidstrom probably should have won the '98 and '09 norris.
I agree regarding 1998. In 2009 it was close with a somewhat legitimate case to be made for each finalist.

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12-14-2010, 04:40 PM
  #30
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Really nice article about Lidstrom on ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...rre&id=5918807

Couple of interesting statements for both sides of the "where should Lidstrom be ranked" debate. First, LeBrun throws Lidstrom's name into the mix as possibly the second greatest defenseman of all time. However, given that he also names Niedermayer, I'm pretty sure that suggestion isn't going to sway anyone who's got Lidstrom pegged in the 4-6 range. (for the record, I've never seen a tremendously convincing argument to place Lidstrom top two, and he's one of my favorite players of all time).

Second interesting topic was Lidstrom elevating his game a lot post '97 after Konstantinov's accident. There is often a back and forth about whether Lidstrom was underappreciated during his early years, and this section seems to give pretty good ammo to those who argue he was not (and just in the interests of full disclosure, I do think Lidstrom was under-appreciated in the back half of the 90's . . . for instance, I think he was better than Konstantinov even during his insane All Star season).

In any event, very nice read. The final quote from Orr is so damn nice it ought to be included in Nik's lists of awards, too.

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12-14-2010, 05:39 PM
  #31
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at the end of one of the videos in the ESPN article posted above, melrose says he's probably the best defenseman to come out of kelvington, saskatchewan. even though wendel played LW in the pros, you could argue that wendel is ahead based solely on junior and WJC accomplishments, given how little melrose did in the big leagues.

also, i honestly don't think pierre lebrun is stupid enough to think niedermayer is anywhere near the best defenseman of all time. when i see crazy things like that on ESPN, i always assume that whoever edited the article put in a recent player who is well known for playing in an american market that the average ESPN reader *might* recognize.

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12-14-2010, 07:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overg View Post
Really nice article about Lidstrom on ESPN.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/column...rre&id=5918807

Couple of interesting statements for both sides of the "where should Lidstrom be ranked" debate. First, LeBrun throws Lidstrom's name into the mix as possibly the second greatest defenseman of all time. However, given that he also names Niedermayer, I'm pretty sure that suggestion isn't going to sway anyone who's got Lidstrom pegged in the 4-6 range. (for the record, I've never seen a tremendously convincing argument to place Lidstrom top two, and he's one of my favorite players of all time).

Second interesting topic was Lidstrom elevating his game a lot post '97 after Konstantinov's accident. There is often a back and forth about whether Lidstrom was underappreciated during his early years, and this section seems to give pretty good ammo to those who argue he was not (and just in the interests of full disclosure, I do think Lidstrom was under-appreciated in the back half of the 90's . . . for instance, I think he was better than Konstantinov even during his insane All Star season).

In any event, very nice read. The final quote from Orr is so damn nice it ought to be included in Nik's lists of awards, too.
Thank you for that article. Good read

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Old
12-14-2010, 08:26 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
also, i honestly don't think pierre lebrun is stupid enough to think niedermayer is anywhere near the best defenseman of all time. when i see crazy things like that on ESPN, i always assume that whoever edited the article put in a recent player who is well known for playing in an american market that the average ESPN reader *might* recognize.
Incredibly, EJ Hradic also throws Niedemayer's name out there as a possible number 2 in his clip with Melrose. It's just such a strange, strange choice. The guy played at the same time as Lidstrom, and is simply dominated by him in every conceivable category I can think of.

And just in case anyone missed it, Bowman directly weighs in on the subject of this thread.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ey-comparisons

Of course, by weighs in I mean lists a bunch of ways they're similar without ever offering a semblance of an opinion as to who was better. Not that I'm surprised. Has Bowman ever directly answered a question he was asked? If anything I'm surprised he stayed so on point instead of talking about how the nettings around the rinks might have changed Harvey's game, or something equally off-tangent.

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12-14-2010, 09:20 PM
  #34
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A 09-10 Norris is not worth much against Bourque or Harvey.
A very nice cup run with a another ring could weight a lot though.
Didnt saw Harvey , but I always thought Bourque was just a step above Lidstrom when I watched them with my eyes.He was also a better goalscorer.

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12-14-2010, 09:35 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overg View Post
Incredibly, EJ Hradic also throws Niedemayer's name out there as a possible number 2 in his clip with Melrose. It's just such a strange, strange choice. The guy played at the same time as Lidstrom, and is simply dominated by him in every conceivable category I can think of.

And just in case anyone missed it, Bowman directly weighs in on the subject of this thread.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ey-comparisons

Of course, by weighs in I mean lists a bunch of ways they're similar without ever offering a semblance of an opinion as to who was better. Not that I'm surprised. Has Bowman ever directly answered a question he was asked? If anything I'm surprised he stayed so on point instead of talking about how the nettings around the rinks might have changed Harvey's game, or something equally off-tangent.
lebrun is certainly not my favourite commentator who does regular duty on HNIC's hotstove, but i don't think he's that stupid or historically reckless. but hradek (or, say, john buccigross), yeah they are that stupid.

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12-14-2010, 10:29 PM
  #36
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I think that comment at the end of the article from Orr is more meaningful than winning a Hart.

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12-15-2010, 11:38 PM
  #37
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Lidstrom's 1st hat trick of his career tonight agasitn St. Louis certainly won't hurt his legacy.

It must be a record going that far into a career without a hatrick then getting one.

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12-15-2010, 11:38 PM
  #38
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I think the hat trick just did it. He's ahead now

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12-15-2010, 11:45 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster View Post
The only award that was close was Rob Blake's Norris, but that is only because people look back and see Lidstroms career now and make that decision.

I remember about two years ago some people in the media stating, "Lidstrom is the second best defenseman of all time". Lidstrom always got his due respect and then some
Glen Healy said it just last week. That should hurt his case if anything.

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12-15-2010, 11:45 PM
  #40
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I think the hat trick just did it. He's ahead now
Well that settles it then, now if he gets a 2nd does he pass Orr?

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12-16-2010, 12:29 AM
  #41
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I didn't saw much of Bourque before he retired, but i always got the impression he did have a better offensive game than Lidström. However, i would give the defensive edge to Lidström. He is second to none when it comes to positioning, reading the play and poke-checking opponents. Lidström doesn't hit you, he just plain out embarras the other teams offensive players.

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12-16-2010, 05:35 AM
  #42
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If you watch the game highlight clip that goes along with Lidstrom's hat trick game against the Blues, Matt Barnaby calls Lidstrom the best and most dominant defenseman he ever plays against, explicitly referencing Bourque while doing so.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=301215005

Obvious retorts are a) Barnaby wasn't exactly a one man offensive juggernaut, so shutting him down wouldn't have been a career defining achievement for either Bourque or Lidstrom, and b) Barnaby largely played against Bourque after his peak years.

Still, I add the link as a possible reference point for the 3,000 Bourque v. Lidstrom threads we'll see over the next decade. Figured Nik could use all the help he can get here on the history boards.

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12-16-2010, 02:58 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well that settles it then, now if he gets a 2nd does he pass Orr?
For that he needs a fighting major.

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12-17-2010, 09:13 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by overg View Post
For that he needs a fighting major.
Well, he has probably had a couple of Gordie Howe Hat ticks but I have never seen him fight.

In my books he makes a strong case as the best ever (if you take overall career and not just peak).

Everything he does from here on in is just icing to a very awesome cake he has built.

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12-18-2010, 07:35 PM
  #45
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Can he catch Harvey? First Lidstrom would have to catch Bourque, and having seen both play their entire careers, I'd say no way. Raymond was simply more DOMINANT, both SOLID. All the stats and trophies in the world don't change what your eyes show you. Of course, in terms of legacy for future generations, Lidstrom could reach Bourque if he won another Norris or two and throw in another Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe.

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12-19-2010, 03:37 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well, he has probably had a couple of Gordie Howe Hat ticks but I have never seen him fight.

In my books he makes a strong case as the best ever (if you take overall career and not just peak).

Everything he does from here on in is just icing to a very awesome cake he has built.

If you want to argue Lidstrom ahead of Harvey and Bourque, I don't have an issue with that, he at least deserves to be mentioned amongst them even if I don't share your opinion of exactly where that is.

However....best ever?
I don't think I can say this any other way....don't be an idiot.

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12-19-2010, 11:47 AM
  #47
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If you want to argue Lidstrom ahead of Harvey and Bourque, I don't have an issue with that, he at least deserves to be mentioned amongst them even if I don't share your opinion of exactly where that is.

However....best ever?
I don't think I can say this any other way....don't be an idiot.
How surprising, I put up the case for the argument elsewhere but will put it here again.

I think that a guy who played in the most competitive era of the NHL for 18 years ( and is the ebst Dman of that era IMO) and counting can be in the mix with Bobby (who was the best player in his era) who played 7 or 8 full superstar seasons in a much watered down league in the late 60's and early 70's.

But of course if you can't distinguish between the quality of play in the NHL in those different times I can understand your viewpoint for what it's worth.

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12-19-2010, 11:59 AM
  #48
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Lidstrom as the best defenseman ever really pushes peak vs career to the absolute extreme limit. Yes I can see an argument that Lidstrom could be ranked 1st ahead of Orr but I would never come out and say it. Lidstrom is really very similar to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in that he was consistently great every year like Kareem was for like 19 years of his career.

Is 18 years of consistent high end play by Lidstrom worth more or better than 8 or so seasons of transcendent play from Orr?

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12-19-2010, 12:45 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
How surprising, I put up the case for the argument elsewhere but will put it here again.

I think that a guy who played in the most competitive era of the NHL for 18 years ( and is the ebst Dman of that era IMO) and counting can be in the mix with Bobby (who was the best player in his era) who played 7 or 8 full superstar seasons in a much watered down league in the late 60's and early 70's.

But of course if you can't distinguish between the quality of play in the NHL in those different times I can understand your viewpoint for what it's worth.
They aren't close. Orr was by far the best player of his era, and was clearly the best player in the NHL for six straight seasons. Since his reign as the best player ended due to injury as opposed to a drop in play, it's reasonable to assume his dominance would have continued had he been healthier. You would be hard pressed to find even one season in which Lidstrom was clearly the best player in the world. The gap between Orr and Lidstrom at their best is just too big to make up for Lidstrom playing in a more competitive era. If you looked at career value alone then you could make a case for Lidstrom being more valuable over his whole career, but if we're talking about who was actually better there is no legitimate case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mco543 View Post
Lidstrom as the best defenseman ever really pushes peak vs career to the absolute extreme limit. Yes I can see an argument that Lidstrom could be ranked 1st ahead of Orr but I would never come out and say it. Lidstrom is really very similar to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in that he was consistently great every year like Kareem was for like 19 years of his career.

Is 18 years of consistent high end play by Lidstrom worth more or better than 8 or so seasons of transcendent play from Orr?
Abdul Jabbar is different than Lidstrom because he was considered the best player in the world for a long time during his peak, while Lidstrom never was. I think you can make a strong case that Lidstrom had roughly the same value as Orr over the course of their respective careers... but I don't think that really impacts who was a better player given the spans in which that value was accumulated.

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12-19-2010, 12:57 PM
  #50
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One thing I've noticed is that when a lot of hockey people are asked to comment on Lidstrom and the great defensemen in general (there's been some quotes given in this thread, also that recent ESPN article, plus I remember some from Pronger and others), there's a fairly consistent pattern that emerges:

-Everyone considers Orr the best ever, and in a class by himself (rightly so)
-Many have a hard time comparing Shore to "modern" defensemen (very understandable)
-Among non-Orr "modern" defensemen, Lidstrom is about as highly regarded as any of the others, but none are so revered as to really separate themselves from the pack that comprises the elite tier below Orr.

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