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Players that were top goalscorers AND playmakers of their time

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Old
12-10-2010, 02:18 PM
  #26
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I've got Crosby as a hybrid Mikita/Beliveau... which is to say one of the best goalscorers and playmakers today but not on the Gretzky/Lemieux level.
I agree with this.
After all this could be the first year that Crosby actually beats OV in goals and that's by no means a certainty as OV is not only capable but has proven that he can explode for like 12 goals in 10 games at any time.
Yes Sid and Stamkos beat OV last season but OV also missed 10 games and still had 50, only one behind heh.
OV also has an almost 80 goal lead on Crosby over all.

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Old
12-10-2010, 02:20 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
I've got Crosby as a hybrid Mikita/Beliveau... which is to say one of the best goalscorers and playmakers today but not on the Gretzky/Lemieux level.
I've always thought Mikita/Dionne. In many ways the best of both.

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12-10-2010, 02:37 PM
  #28
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post

Just think about this...in exactly 9 days, it will be the 26th anniversary of Gretzky scoring his first 1000 points in the 31rst game of his 6th season at the ripe old age of 23.
In other words, almost exactly where Crosby is now.
ok but your throwing point total stats from the 80s, cant compare. Again, you must compare the PERCENTAGE that Gretz lead in scoring over everyone else. It was enormous. Then Lemieux came.

Obivously Crosby isnt there yet, and he wont have that crazy % difference Gretz had in the 80s. When I mean hes (will be) the Gretzky of our time, I just mean in terms of being the best for so long. Probably better than say Lafleur and Jagr were the best of their time, during a relatively shorter span.

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12-10-2010, 02:51 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
ok but your throwing point total stats from the 80s, cant compare. Again, you must compare the PERCENTAGE that Gretz lead in scoring over everyone else. It was enormous. Then Lemieux came.

Obivously Crosby isnt there yet, and he wont have that crazy % difference Gretz had in the 80s. When I mean hes (will be) the Gretzky of our time, I just mean in terms of being the best for so long. Probably better than say Lafleur and Jagr were the best of their time, during a relatively shorter span.
Dude....you can't say he's the Gretzky of our time, no one is.
Gretzky is the Gretzky of our time period!
Don't even know how much more I can stress this.

Again, just because Crosby may be the best the league has to offer atm DOES NOT MEAN HE IS AUTOMATICALLY THE NEW GRETZKY!

I mean look at it another way.
Jagr not too long ago was easily the most dominant player in the league offensively. Further ahead of his competition than any degree Crosby has managed and you certainly didn't hear people calling him the new Gretzky or the new Lemieux because quite simply, he had played against them and came up far short and everyone knew it.

It's like saying that Coffey or Green are the the Orr's of our time just because they are/were clearly the most offensive D-men.
You have to see how silly that sounds.

Crosby has yet to even dominate on Jagr's level, let alone on Gretzky's or Lemieux's.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-10-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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Old
12-10-2010, 03:17 PM
  #30
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Dude....you can't say he's the Gretzky of our time, no one is.
Gretzky is the Gretzky of our time period!
Don't even know how much more I can stress this.

Again, just because Crosby may be the best the league has to offer atm DOES NOT MEAN HE IS AUTOMATICALLY THE NEW GRETZKY!

I mean look at it another way.
Jagr not too long ago was easily the most dominant player in the league offensively. Further ahead of his competition than any degree Crosby has managed and you certainly didn't hear people calling him the new Gretzky or the new Lemieux because quite simply, he had played against them and came up far short and everyone knew it.

It's like saying that Coffey or Green are the the Orr's of our time just because they are/were clearly the most offensive D-men.
You have to see how silly that sounds.

Crosby has yet to even dominate on Jagr's level, let alone on Gretzky's or Lemieux's.
Did you not even read my post?

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Old
12-10-2010, 03:21 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Personally I think Sid has to distance himself from the rest of the pack a lot further than just the short term scoring streak he's riding atm to get any kind of Gretzky or Lemieux comparisons.

Just because he might be the best in the league currently doesn't mean he's entitled to be any where near that of Wayne or Mario.

Those guys didn't just edge out people or win scoring races by moderate amounts, they absolutely and completely buried everyone else.

What Sid is doing now for only 17 games is what Wayne and Mario did for better parts of whole decades.

Hey, if he keeps up this 2 points or so a game for another 500-600 games straight, I will be the first one to acknowledge his place up there with #99 and #66.

I don't like having to constantly knock on Sid as it were because I really do believe he's one hell of a player but I was there through Gretzky's and Lemieux's primes.
Sid has played very well so far through his career and is having a great run right now but I'm sorry, none of it holds a candle to the sheer ridiculousness of what Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr did.

What Sid is doing right now is amazing for sure, just as Stamkos was doing less than a month ago but what #99, #66 and #4 did was actually considered impossible.
That's the difference.

It's like how soon we forget that OV started out last season with 23 points in 13 games including a whopping 14 goals and he didn't get half the attention Sid is getting now.
Just doesn't seem very objective.


Guys, Gretzky produced at a rate of between 2 to 3 points per game for 11 frigging years straight and I honestly think that is something that is lost on a lot of folk...like that is just a retarded amount of time.
agreed, though I have to say that what Sid is doing now is eerily close to what Mario did back in the late 80s. I always thought Sid would be #2 behind Mario, but I didn't think he had that extra gear that he brought into this year. This is a gear that only Mario & the pipsqueak had when I watched them in their primes....

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Old
12-10-2010, 03:29 PM
  #32
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Did you not even read my post?

Yea man I did and you mention the best for a long time.
Again...Lafleur was the best for a long time, Jagr was the best for a long time, hell, OV has been the best for as long as Crosby.

Still doesn't mean that a single one of them deserves to be called anything even remotely close to Gretzky.

Know what I mean?

Being the best for a long time is not remotely the same as being what Gretzky was. He made what we call the best look like AHL players.

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12-10-2010, 03:32 PM
  #33
intylerwetrust
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yea man I did and you mention the best for a long time.
Again...Lafleur was the best for a long time, Jagr was the best for a long time, hell, OV has been the best for as long as Crosby.

Still doesn't mean that a single one of them deserves to be called anything even remotely close to Gretzky.

Know what I mean?

Being the best for a long time not the same as being what Gretzky was.
Let me me just re-post what I wrote then...

Quote:
Obivously Crosby isnt there yet, and he wont have that crazy % difference Gretz had in the 80s. When I mean hes (will be) the Gretzky of our time, I just mean in terms of being the best for so long. Probably better than say Lafleur and Jagr were the best of their time, during a relatively shorter span.

So exactly where do I say hes gonna be "as good as Gretzky"? Im not even saying hes already better than Jagr and Lafleur were. Im saying its looking like he'll be the best the league for a long time much like they were, and MAYBE better (Jagr and Lafleur, NOT Gretzky)

Will he be? WHO KNOWS. Im just stating what I think, and Im sure many people think so too. If you think Corsby doesnt have that potential, thats your opinion. Im not gonna get all defensive about it, though.

Just read my post WELL next time.


Last edited by intylerwetrust: 12-10-2010 at 03:42 PM.
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Old
12-10-2010, 03:43 PM
  #34
Rhiessan71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post

So exactly where do I say hes gonna be "as good as Gretzky"?
I know what you're trying to say and I agree with the part that Crosby definitely has a chance at being on par with or better than Guy or Jagr.
I just have issue with the use of "Gretzky of our time" in any way, shape or form.
Quite frankly imo, it actually demeans the vast dominance Gretzky held over his peers. A dominance that Crosby hasn't even scratched the surface on.

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Old
12-10-2010, 04:07 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
I've always thought Mikita/Dionne. In many ways the best of both.
Good call with Dionne, lots of similarities there. I was thinking that Crosby's results will end up looking like Beliveau's (not in terms of quantity of Stanley Cups obviously) and the comparison worked well since Beliveau was elite as a goalscorer and playmaker.

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Old
12-10-2010, 04:44 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
Im not saying hes doing what they did yet, but if he starts winning scoring titles by 20+ pts every year for the next while, then he enters the discussion. Not necessairly being top 3 all-time, but at least as that generational talent that we see every other decade. One thing Crosby cant benefit from unlike Wayne and Mario is having a dynasty built around them. Mario did indeed do a lot with moderate wingers (pre-Jagr), I admit.

Time will tell. His Cup, Hart, Art Ross, and Gold medal is a great start, though.
Just out of curiousity why not? He's got the Cup in 2009. They were spoonfed the chance to be in the final last year but failed. They are the best team in the NHL right now with the most points. Would it shock anyone if they won the Cup in 2011? Not me. That'd be 2 in 3 years at least in the POTENTIAL dynasty category at that time.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Even with conservative Adjusted Craps, that's still between 150-180 points a year for 11 years straight in today's NHL.
You say beating folks by 20 points a year would be enough but enough for what? To be considered in the top 10 all-time, I could prolly live with that but it's certainly not enough to put him in the same class as Gretz or Mario.
Quite frankly, the enormity of what those guys did is lost on too many folk today imo.

Just think about this...in exactly 9 days, it will be the 26th anniversary of Gretzky scoring his first 1000 points in the 31rst game of his 6th season at the ripe old age of 23.
In other words, almost exactly where Crosby is now.



No argument but Sid has yet to accomplish this.
Agreed here. There was Gretzky and then the rest of the NHL. I hate it when people say "well the competition was easier back then". Ha! Was it now? It is no different than today. Gretzky was scoring 200+ points when some great offensive players like Trottier, Stastny, Bossy, Dionne, Kurri and Hawerchuk would get around 130. He did this in an embarassing fashion for 7 straight years where he "lapped" the rest of the NHL. 1980-'81 he didn't get near 200, but this was the first year where he was clearly the best in the world by a decent margin. After that until Lemieux arrived in around 1988, no one was even close.

Even then until about 1994 or so it was just Gretzky and Lemieux. Gretzky was starting a slow decline in the 1990s yet he still led that decade in points! He also nearly had more assists in 1991 than Hull (2nd in points) had total points! This was his last year where he embarassed the field. Even an injured Lemieux didn't have the PPG to have gotten 163 points that year. So those two went back in forth for a while. Lemieux wins the Art Ross in 1988 and 1989. Gretzky in 1990 and 1991. Lemieux in 1992 and 1993. Then after everyone was gushing about the dominance of Mario coming back from cancer, who has one of the best playoffs of all-time? Gretzky. Then he wins the Art Ross in 1994 by 10 points. Then, and only then, starting in 1995 was he not in the same company of Lemieux anymore.

I am personally rooting for Sid, but the kid has several years of dominance in order to be talked about with #99.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Crosby has yet to even dominate on Jagr's level, let alone on Gretzky's or Lemieux's.
Hey I agree with you, I don't like hyperbole either. Remember in the beginning of the year the headline of "STAMKOS THE NEW BEST PLAYER IN THE NHL". They were wrong then just like now. But I will say, this season we are seeing a dominant Crosby with shades - if not better - than Jagr in 1999 which was his most dominant season. We shall see because this is December, let's not get nuts. When its April we can examine it better. But Jagr led the NHL in points by 20 that year. Next year he missed 19 games and still won the Art Ross again by 2 points. That's dominance. Can Crosby do that? Right now he's on pace for it, but he still has to prove he can do it. So I will say that seeing both players (Jagr and Crosby) it is getting harder and harder to NOT say Sid at his best (so far) is at the level of Jagr's best. It'll be interesting to find out, but if he laps the field by getting 140 points while Stamkos/Ovechkin are the next best with 115 or so, then yes that is at the very least Jagr territory. But still a ways to go to get to Mario/Gretzky territory

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12-10-2010, 05:49 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Hey I agree with you, I don't like hyperbole either. Remember in the beginning of the year the headline of "STAMKOS THE NEW BEST PLAYER IN THE NHL". They were wrong then just like now. But I will say, this season we are seeing a dominant Crosby with shades - if not better - than Jagr in 1999 which was his most dominant season. We shall see because this is December, let's not get nuts. When its April we can examine it better. But Jagr led the NHL in points by 20 that year. Next year he missed 19 games and still won the Art Ross again by 2 points. That's dominance. Can Crosby do that? Right now he's on pace for it, but he still has to prove he can do it. So I will say that seeing both players (Jagr and Crosby) it is getting harder and harder to NOT say Sid at his best (so far) is at the level of Jagr's best. It'll be interesting to find out, but if he laps the field by getting 140 points while Stamkos/Ovechkin are the next best with 115 or so, then yes that is at the very least Jagr territory. But still a ways to go to get to Mario/Gretzky territory
Agreed. Last year at this time people were saying Ovechkin was cleary the best player in the NHL, with his nearly 70 goal pace. 3 weeks ago it was Stamkos on that pace. Now Crosby is on fire. When the season is over, we'll see what happened. So far Crosby has been amazing, but he could go 3 or 4 games without a point, and suddenly its a race again. No one knows; its still too early.

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