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Kessel Should Be Ashamed

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Old
12-09-2010, 01:58 PM
  #76
dirk41
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Originally Posted by pitch154 View Post
Its funny people forget this kid is 23 years old. Hes not a veteran and still has A TON of things to learn about the game. Hes 23 years old. Hes a young kid, and all young players make mistakes. Hes no where near his prime and hasnt come close to his potential. Its minus 10 outside and still people are heated over nothing
A 23 year-old man is not a "young kid." Regardless, this "young kid" has shown no improvement over the last 2 and half seasons. If anything, he's regressing.

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12-09-2010, 01:59 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by pitch154 View Post
Its funny people forget this kid is 23 years old. Hes not a veteran and still has A TON of things to learn about the game. Hes 23 years old. Hes a young kid, and all young players make mistakes. Hes no where near his prime and hasnt come close to his potential. Its minus 10 outside and still people are heated over nothing
The NHL is becoming a young league. 23 really isn't all that "young" anymore when you consider the top draft picks are starting to play when they are 18-20. Kessel has been in the NHL for almost 5 years now. While he still has plenty to learn, he shouldn't be regressing at this point in his career. He should be building on his productive seasons, and most importantly, he should be stronger on the puck, and more defensively-minded.

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12-09-2010, 02:02 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
If thats so go read this thread you started just not so long ago.http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=830670

How do you explain that?
How do I explain what? I have no problem with Phil Kessel, I never have. That was a legitimate question to the Leaf fan base to get some feedback on Kessels' skill level...This post that you are questioning me on is about Brian Burke and his ability to properly evaluate talent. Another poster raised the point that Burke did not evaluate Kessels abilities/attitude properly before pulling the trigger on the Kessel deal.


Two different matters....Just because I hate the trade doesn't mean I hate the player....Look..this Kessel deal has been argued over so much that it is tiresome...Im certainly not doing that here. But the two posts are completely unrelated. You will not find ONE SINGLE contradictory post about Brian Burke from ME......NEVER.

I have never like him (before his Leafs tenure) I have always thought of him as brash,arrogant and over-rated....and I think thus far Burkie has proved all the preconceived notions Ive had of him...This is the only area where he hasn't disappointed me unfortunately....

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12-09-2010, 02:03 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
never say never.is this your set up to now slag burke?
No setup whatsoever. It's just that in this current situation Burke, or any GM, might as well tender their resignation if they were to trade Kessel given the circumstances surrounding his acquisition. Couple that with the fact that big name deals are extremely rare in the cap world and you have an extremely unrealistic scenario.

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12-09-2010, 02:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by dirk41 View Post
For nothing? He massively overpaid for a soft, one-dimensional, complementary player. No one excepts to get a player like Kessel "for nothing," but he isn't worth two premium first round picks and a second.

Twits love using false dilemmas and calling people names.
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Originally Posted by dirk41 View Post
Legion of sheep? Sounds like the posters on this forum who constantly defend Burke and Kessel.
Like I have said before, have any team offer two firsts and a second around the league and watch teams with truly elite players laugh in your face.

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12-09-2010, 02:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Yes, they are the ones you can't understand.
No, I understand your posts just fine. Sometimes you do put some good input into a conversation but more often then not your eight word long posts add nothing but the obvious.

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12-09-2010, 02:08 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Like I have said before, have any team offer two firsts and a second around the league and watch teams with truly elite players laugh in your face.
Are you happy with Kessel's performance? Honest question. I've always preached patience with Burke's acquisition of Kessel but I'm starting to doubt he'll ever turn the corner. Are you seeing progression?

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12-09-2010, 02:09 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Like I have said before, have any team offer two firsts and a second around the league and watch teams with truly elite players laugh in your face.
Elite player? Who's talking about truly elite players. We are talking about Kessel, who is elite in only one dimension. The gulf between Kessel and truly elite players is gigantic. Some people whined about about how Kessel didn't make TSN's top 50 player list, but, really, at this point he'd be hard-pressed to make a top 100 list.

My point is that if a team can't get a player like Kessel for less than two first round picks and a second, the team should just move along, especially when the team is not a complementary piece away from competing.

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12-09-2010, 02:09 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Burke built one Stanley Cup team and the Canucks wouldn't be a Cup contender now without Burke's work.

Anything else I can help you with?

So you want to re-vistit that Cup Ring in Anaheim stuff again...whatever. You say Burke...some say it was Murray..I say it was a bit of both..but the foundation for a good/great team was already there. No question about it.

Canucks? I hardly think so....Burke won 1 playoff series in Vancouver in what, 5 years? Gimme a break...Now you want to give him credit for the Canucks current roster? Damn...talk about trying to grasp at straws...why because he drafted the Sedins? It doesn't take a genius to draft in the top 5....they are all laid out for you by the scouting bureaus...A monkey could step up to the podium and select the Sedins. A freakin monkey.

Just like it wasn't a genius who drafted Steve Stamkos or Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin...no brainers.

Burke fans....hilarious.

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12-09-2010, 02:09 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by tpc77 View Post
Let's just take a step back and watch it unfold. This is a microcosm of the higher than realistic expectations of this young hockey team.

We are younger than Edmonton, but the effin media makes excuses for them all the time as a "young" team finding their way.

However, they are like, why the heck can't the leafs win and be a guarantee for the playoffs?
I realize that the expectations of this team are way to high personally I predicted a 11th-12th place finish prior to the season so the leafs are right where I believed they would be however about your point about Edmonton and Toronto the clear difference is if Edmonton plays bad and loses they get rewarded with another top young player, Toronto doesn't have this luxury since that top young player will be given to a team in there division, also it has been stated in the media by both teams the direction there teams should be headed, Edmonton is rebuilding and Toronto is pushing to make the playoffs and thats why the expectations are different on the 2 teams even tho were the younger of the 2

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12-09-2010, 02:09 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
I give him credit,but he needs to understand that he is still developing. His game like most players needs constant tweeks. He shouldn't feel the pressure as long as he is scoring,but he should feel the pressure to evolve his game defensively,and strive to get better every game.

I maintain at this point he is still developing,and give him lots of slack actually.
He was the main guy in the two goals that tied the game against boston and washington but that doesnt count- ha
Kess is 4mill dollar compliment player with high skill but needs other players and everybody knows that. Burke needs to move on Richards or Semin and next years team will look better. So what Burke overpaid for him but he has tremdous value since he has put 30 goals last years and will get 25-30 this year. Burke problem is komi, beach, or kaberle and trying to move them to free up cap space. I wont include Finger or lebda disasters. Burke's deal on komi is the disaster in not getting a stud forward to help kessel. Komi makes 6mill this year and plays 10minutes and is out of the league in a year- I would bash burke over that signing and leave kessel alone. kessel, dion, komi, kabs all make the same money but i would take kessel over those guys every day of the week.

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12-09-2010, 02:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
How do I explain what? I have no problem with Phil Kessel, I never have. That was a legitimate question to the Leaf fan base to get some feedback on Kessels' skill level...This post that you are questioning me on is about Brian Burke and his ability to properly evaluate talent. Another poster raised the point that Burke did not evaluate Kessels abilities/attitude properly before pulling the trigger on the Kessel deal.


Two different matters....Just because I hate the trade doesn't mean I hate the player....Look..this Kessel deal has been argued over so much that it is tiresome...Im certainly not doing that here. But the two posts are completely unrelated. You will not find ONE SINGLE contradictory post about Brian Burke from ME......NEVER.

I have never like him (before his Leafs tenure) I have always thought of him as brash,arrogant and over-rated....and I think thus far Burkie has proved all the preconceived notions Ive had of him...This is the only area where he hasn't disappointed me unfortunately....
ok thanks. it was my fault in interpretation.

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12-09-2010, 02:17 PM
  #88
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I find it funny a man with no shame commenting on others.

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12-09-2010, 02:20 PM
  #89
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Lot of pressure being the only threat on the team. He'll be fine once they get some players to play with him.

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12-09-2010, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
So you want to re-vistit that Cup Ring in Anaheim stuff again...whatever. You say Burke...some say it was Murray..I say it was a bit of both..but the foundation for a good/great team was already there. No question about it.
Ducks the season before he got the job.

Quote:
Canucks? I hardly think so....Burke won 1 playoff series in Vancouver in what, 5 years? Gimme a break...Now you want to give him credit for the Canucks current roster? Damn...talk about trying to grasp at straws...why because he drafted the Sedins? It doesn't take a genius to draft in the top 5....they are all laid out for you by the scouting bureaus...A monkey could step up to the podium and select the Sedins. A freakin monkey.

Just like it wasn't a genius who drafted Steve Stamkos or Sidney Crosby or Alex Ovechkin...no brainers.

Burke fans....hilarious.
How Burke Pulled off the Sedins Heist

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12-09-2010, 02:21 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by tpc77 View Post
Guess what?
He is still growing up.

Very much tired of everyone thinking that a player is as good as they will ever be and will act as mature as they ever will when they are 23 years old......

Yes, Kessel seems to be feeling a bit sorry for himself and his lack of production and quality players to play with.
Being a 23 year old, guys aren't always mature enough to get through it alone and do the "proper" thing as an expected offensive leader.

Not everyone is Crosby people.
Even Ovechkin has two studs to play with, 3 if you can the offensive abilities of Green on the point.

Let's just take a step back and watch it unfold. This is a microcosm of the higher than realistic expectations of this young hockey team.

We are younger than Edmonton, but the effin media makes excuses for them all the time as a "young" team finding their way.

However, they are like, why the heck can't the leafs win and be a guarantee for the playoffs?

BECAUSE WE ARE EFFIN YOUNG AND HAVE LITTLE EXPERIENCE! Being 20-25 is not old and mature in this league. Especially when most guys have a max of 2-3 years in the league.

There's my rant..... Geeze this stuff pisses me off
B.S! 23 is plenty old enough to be "MATURE", he is not 18!

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12-09-2010, 02:23 PM
  #92
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ok thanks. it was my fault in interpretation.
No worries Leafspring...I will go on record as saying I LIKE PHIL KESSEL again...Ive said it many times over...I think he will get unfair treatment in Toronto unfortunately because of the cost to acquire him...but I will say it again. Its not the players fault.

Kessel as much as everyone wants to bash him is still heads and shoulders above anybody else on the Leafs from a pure skill level.

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12-09-2010, 02:24 PM
  #93
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Just what is it we have do you think?

He is a 30 goal scorer on his own. The problems he has are to complex for a singular thing to explain his problems.
I can sum it up quite succinctly for you..

The ONLY thing that Kessel is good for is scoring goals..

Therefore when he isn't scoring goals he is good for NOTHING.

Not everyone is able to recognize this. Howard Berger seems to have hit the nail right on the head

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12-09-2010, 02:24 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I realize that the expectations of this team are way to high personally I predicted a 11th-12th place finish prior to the season so the leafs are right where I believed they would be however about your point about Edmonton and Toronto the clear difference is if Edmonton plays bad and loses they get rewarded with another top young player, Toronto doesn't have this luxury since that top young player will be given to a team in there division, also it has been stated in the media by both teams the direction there teams should be headed, Edmonton is rebuilding and Toronto is pushing to make the playoffs and thats why the expectations are different on the 2 teams even tho were the younger of the 2
I completely agree, it is the fact of not having a 1st rounder which creates this pressure.

But at the surface, the reality is that we are in the same place as them and unfortunately we take much more ridicule because of the lack of a pick........

It sucks, but it is what it is I guess?

I think we need to look at it as "re-tooling" and if we aren't where we need to be for the playoff race by the deadline, continue trying to make deals for other "youngish" players with upside who might be struggling.

Changes of scenary with these types of players can make a world of difference especially when they are the age where they can break out. (21-25).

Then, if free agency is not a success, we will have a core group of promising players and worst case scenario we get a high 2012 pick.

Best case scenario our group of 21-25 years olds mature together and step up as effective and consistent NHLers, which would lead us to the playoffs.

Despite the non first rounders, we do have some quality prospects in the system still. Most are likely 2-3 years away, but I like the looks of :

Mckegg, Ross, Blacker, Frattin, Aulie, Olden, Caputi, Rynnas, Reimer, (even Kadri still is a prospect).

I know it's tough living in the current emotions, but combine these guys with a core of current NHlers younger than 25 and often less than 4 years NHL experience it's just not as bad as it is often made out to be.

Chins up folks, I can't remember a time where we had such promise moving forward in 2-3 years.
IN the past we were losing and not making the playoffs, but had nothing to look forward to at all!

Burke really hasn't done that bad. I think he will look like a hero in years 4-5 of his contract, which GMs often need to REALLY show their value in building a consistent and stable franchise

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12-09-2010, 02:28 PM
  #95
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Its funny people forget this kid is 23 years old. Hes not a veteran and still has A TON of things to learn about the game. Hes 23 years old. Hes a young kid, and all young players make mistakes. Hes no where near his prime and hasnt come close to his potential. Its minus 10 outside and still people are heated over nothing

Kaberle is 32, and Iginla is 33 and many people feel that they are getting old.

23 is not a "kid", and to be honest I doubt he's going to get any better because he's at the prime age of most "snipers" in the NHL

For most hockey players the prime age is 28, but it's not like they have a significant jump from 23 to 28

Kessel is no longer concidered a 'kid', Toews is 22 and he's not treated like a 'kid' or how about Tavers, he is only 20, but he's matured pretty quickly.

I know people like to believe that there's all this "potential" but guys like Kessel (23), Bozak (24), Gunnarson (24) don't expect them to get much better.

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12-09-2010, 02:30 PM
  #96
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I have been against the Kessel trade from day one and nothing that have happened or anything Kessel have done have made me rethink and change opinion about him or the trade. Sure, an emotional cheer when he have been scoring but other then that he have only left me frustrated and angry.

First of all I dont like Kessel, never had and I think I never will and that have to do with him as a person and as a player.

On top of that I think the deal was overpayment, made at the wrong time seeing as the risk (or chance...) of us ending up a bottom team was to great. I would be fine dealing a first rounder to add a missing piece to a competitive team but no way I am fine with risking 2 1st for a heartless, one dimensional player who have not improved since his draft day when the team had so many holes and question marks. The things said about him prior to his draft who then turned out to be true in Boston and who we all can see happen again in Toronto is something that does not change with time. If you have a certain type of personality at age 23 you will have the same personality at age 33 as well.

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12-09-2010, 02:32 PM
  #97
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B.S! 23 is plenty old enough to be "MATURE", he is not 18!
How old are you? Have you ever played hockey?

I think anyone who can say they are 25-30 at least and who have played quality and competitive hockey can agree that there is a difference.....

I know when I was a 20 year old, I thought I was as good as I could be and saw the game as well as I could.

Lone behold, by 25 I was more physically mature, I thought the game differently, and had the mental maturity to withstand some hurdles I may have not overcome as well as a 20 year old.

Age and maturation is a reality in the game of hockey.

Let's just keep living in the now though, that's easiest.......

If not, we would have nothing to do.

(All in all, he isn't giving the effort he needs to be and definitely can pick up his game..... Just give some slack for the age as well as adapting to a brand new NHL position. The hardest one to play by the way....

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12-09-2010, 02:34 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by tpc77 View Post
anecdotal story
Average goals scored by age for the top 100 scorers:

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12-09-2010, 02:36 PM
  #99
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I don't think Kessel should be ashamed. He is what he is. A very inconsistent 30 goal scorer who brings absolutely nothing to the table besides scoring. I hope people were not expecting a star player just because we gave up 2 firsts and a 2nd to get him. That was just a bad trade, that is all.

And for the people who are saying "he's a kid he'll learn"...23 year old player (with 5 season under his belt) can't be called a kid anymore. Its just a whole bunch of excuses all over again.

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12-09-2010, 02:36 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
I have been against the Kessel trade from day one and nothing that have happened or anything Kessel have done have made me rethink and change opinion about him or the trade. Sure, an emotional cheer when he have been scoring but other then that he have only left me frustrated and angry.

First of all I dont like Kessel, never had and I think I never will and that have to do with him as a person and as a player.

On top of that I think the deal was overpayment, made at the wrong time seeing as the risk (or chance...) of us ending up a bottom team was to great. I would be fine dealing a first rounder to add a missing piece to a competitive team but no way I am fine with risking 2 1st
for a heartless, one dimensional player who have not improved since his draft day
when the team had so many holes and question marks. The things said about him prior to his draft who then turned out to be true in Boston and who we all can see happen again in Toronto is something that does not change with time. If you have a certain type of personality at age 23 you will have the same personality at age 33 as well.

1)Agree, definitely didn't like two of them. One would not have been a big deal, because this club wouldn't have the ridiculous pressure to succeed as such a young group.....

2) Hahahhaha what? You been around for the last 4 years?


3)Very much not true!
Maybe you are just a young kid and haven't felt growing up yet?

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