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Calder Watch: Derek Stepan

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Old
12-10-2010, 11:32 AM
  #51
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He isn't winning the calder. If he plays well enough the rest of this season to even eek out a nomination it would be pretty damn good for our club, though.

Forward is probly gonna need 55+ points to get the nod.

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12-10-2010, 11:44 AM
  #52
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Sting, first off you did say he has taking shifts off. Look at your post. You tell me who has been better in the last 15 games. He is 20 years old and he is outplaying most the forwards. How many of our forwards have 14 points in the last 13 games? I also wish you would quit saying that is will hit the wall, because all college players do it. It seems to me that this kid is getting better with each and every game, and i have been saying that for three months on this board because if you go back and look at his past that is what has exactly happened. Tell me what you want him to go do in the AHL to prove to you that he is ready for the NHL. I guess 7 goals and 10 assists in 25 games are not good enough for you. I also don't believe that this is a average team. It is so hard to win in this leauge it's not funny. This team has a very good chance to make a run at the end of the year because it's very much a fact that these guys believe in each other and they have one of the best goalies in the NHL. Thats were it all starts.

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12-10-2010, 12:11 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stepanformayor View Post
Sting, first off you did say he has taking shifts off. Look at your post.
Let's look at my post:

I just still see him disappear for shifts at a time, and he's not a lazy player.


How do you get takes shifts off from that? He ISN'T a lazy player. He doesn't take shifts off, he disappears because he isn't up to it physically or because the holes in his game don't allow him to factor into the play in certain situations.

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You tell me who has been better in the last 15 games. He is 20 years old and he is outplaying most the forwards. How many of our forwards have 14 points in the last 13 games?
Outplaying or outscoring? Most of this team's forwards are role players, grinders. We have 4-5 guys on the roster that qualify as skill players, and one of those players is Christiansen. Frolov is another. It's not an accomplishment for a player with the skills of Stepan to be outscoring Prust or Fedotenko or Avery or Anisimov or Boyle. But those guys aren't supposed to be providing much offense. They have their jobs to do, and they, for the most part, are able to do their job all game long. Stepan is not able to do that right now.

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I also wish you would quit saying that is will hit the wall, because all college players do it. It seems to me that this kid is getting better with each and every game, and i have been saying that for three months on this board because if you go back and look at his past that is what has exactly happened.
Yes, all college players do it. That's why I generally hold the opinion that MOST college players should spend time in the AHL before they transition to the NHL, and the same goes for Stepan. I think he could be getting even better there than he is here.

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Tell me what you want him to go do in the AHL to prove to you that he is ready for the NHL. I guess 7 goals and 10 assists in 25 games are not good enough for you.
I want him to develop his all-around game. I want him to get into NHL physical condition. I want him to be a complete player who can impact the game in any situation, no matter who he's on the ice against. That's what he did in college, and that's what his potential is in the NHL. He's not at that point yet, and I'm of the opinion that some of those things need to be learned gradually, especially for NCAA players. Again, stats don't tell the whole story for any player. I want him to learn how to pace yourself during a game in an 82-game season. NCAA to the Pros is a big adjustment.

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I also don't believe that this is a average team. It is so hard to win in this leauge it's not funny. This team has a very good chance to make a run at the end of the year because it's very much a fact that these guys believe in each other and they have one of the best goalies in the NHL. Thats were it all starts.
Couldn't disagree more.

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12-10-2010, 12:24 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Couldn't disagree more.
The Rangers have 1 less win than the Caps and Flyers. They have less OTL which makes up the points difference. However, I believe that on most nights they are an above average team. Elite? Top Tier? No, but above average? Yes.

You are what your record says you are and considering this team has only won 1 SO game this season, I think 17-12-1 is a good indication, that this team is better than average. This isn't Tom Renney's Rangers where we were pumped up by SO wins every season.

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12-10-2010, 12:27 PM
  #55
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After going 11 games without a point he now has 12 points in the last 14 games since then, not bad, not bad at all.

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12-10-2010, 12:34 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
The Rangers have 1 less win than the Caps and Flyers. They have less OTL which makes up the points difference. However, I believe that on most nights they are an above average team. Elite? Top Tier? No, but above average? Yes.

You are what your record says you are and considering this team has only won 1 SO game this season, I think 17-12-1 is a good indication, that this team is better than average. This isn't Tom Renney's Rangers where we were pumped up by SO wins every season.
We do have 17 wins, but only 4 are against playoff teams. Only 3 are against top teams. I see a 7th/8th place team in the East that very likely exits the playoffs in round 1.

That's why I don't see the need to rush Stepan's development. Is he going to take this team on a deep playoff run?

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12-10-2010, 12:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
We do have 17 wins, but only 4 are against playoff teams. Only 3 are against top teams. I see a 7th/8th place team in the East that very likely exits the playoffs in round 1.

That's why I don't see the need to rush Stepan's development. Is he going to take this team on a deep playoff run?
Why are you so concerned about "rushing" him? He's obviously ready for the NHL. There are plenty of teams in this league who have star players who never play a game in the AHL. Those teams have no problems. He's adjusting well to the NHL schedule. If he falls into a deep rut like he had early in the season, then I can say you have a case. However, when he's playing like he is now it'd be ridiculous and a confidence killer to send him down. You CANNOT send a player who's putting up almost a point per game down in the minors. What kind of garbage organization does that?

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12-10-2010, 12:50 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
Why are you so concerned about "rushing" him? He's obviously ready for the NHL. There are plenty of teams in this league who have star players who never play a game in the AHL. Those teams have no problems. He's adjusting well to the NHL schedule. If he falls into a deep rut like he had early in the season, then I can say you have a case. However, when he's playing like he is now it'd be ridiculous and a confidence killer to send him down. You CANNOT send a player who's putting up almost a point per game down in the minors. What kind of garbage organization does that?
See, that's the thing. I think it's pretty obvious that he's not. What kind of garbage organization places short term needs over the goals of the long-term? (This team has a long history of doing that). And I don't think he's going to be sent down now, I think he'll be sent down when Drury and Prospal return. If he's still scoring at the same pace as he has for the last two weeks, then I could understand them not sending him down. I don't imagine he will be, though. There's a big problem on HF where people think that when a guy goes on a hot streak that automatically means he's going to continue on that pace forever. He's also been playing his best hockey of the season against some of the league's worst teams.

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12-10-2010, 12:57 PM
  #59
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We can all agree on one thing. Stepan is on a great pace, and he will a good player for this org. for a long time. In my opionion, there is no way that this kid gets sent down this year, but it will be interesting what they do when Dru and Prospal come back.

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12-10-2010, 12:59 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
He's also been playing his best hockey of the season against some of the league's worst teams.
God damn him!

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12-10-2010, 01:03 PM
  #61
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God damn him!
Am I insulting him? Am I putting him down in some way? I just want the kid to be the best player he can be. I love him as a player. He's exactly my type of player: smart, heady, thinks the game. But he's not the most physically gifted player and the NHL is not the NCAA, and I don't think this team is anything more than mediocre, so I'd rather think about his future.

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12-10-2010, 01:07 PM
  #62
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If he truly wasn't ready for the NHL the Rangers wouldn't have kept him up. I know the standard response to that is "but they needed a guy to hype" but I just don't buy it. They didn't have a problem sending down McDonagh after hyping him up

This seems to just be more of a prospect development disagreement. I think some guys can develop fine at the NHL level and Stepan is doing it. Hard to tell if the AHL actually would be better for him. Again, it could just prepare him for the AHL and leave him lacking at the NHL level

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12-10-2010, 01:08 PM
  #63
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My opinion on the Calder race up until this point:

1. Couture
2. Skinner
3/4. Fowler / Bobrovsky
5/6. Hall / Stepan

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12-10-2010, 01:09 PM
  #64
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sting,

Your problem with Stepan is his ability to play the same game on every shift, yet even guys who become good players in the NHL after a good AHL stint have that problem. That's not indicative of a need of AHL seasoning. You don't learn how to be consistent in the NHL by playing in the AHL. You learn it by getting game experience in the NHL. If that's the main point of your reasoning for sending him down when Drury and/or Prospal comes back, then I think it's flawed. It's only the rare rookie that shows the kind of consistency you are looking for and it doesn't matter whether they came from the CHL, NCAA or AHL.

The question here is whether or not he figures out how to be consistent or whether or not he stays this way. I think, at the very least, he'll figure out most of the way and that will make him a good 2nd liner like Dubinsky or Callahan (not comparing their games, just what might be his ceiling). If he really figures it out, that will make him a legit first line player.

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12-10-2010, 01:11 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Am I insulting him? Am I putting him down in some way? I just want the kid to be the best player he can be. I love him as a player. He's exactly my type of player: smart, heady, thinks the game. But he's not the most physically gifted player and the NHL is not the NCAA, and I don't think this team is anything more than mediocre, so I'd rather think about his future.
Who cares which teams he's playing well against... Honestly? It's his rookie season and this is all about him getting confidence at the NHL level and acclimating himself to this level of competition.... Over-scrutinizing a 20 year old first year player's is unwarranted....

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12-10-2010, 01:12 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
sting,

Your problem with Stepan is his ability to play the same game on every shift, yet even guys who become good players in the NHL after a good AHL stint have that problem. That's not indicative of a need of AHL seasoning. You don't learn how to be consistent in the NHL by playing in the AHL. You learn it by getting game experience in the NHL. If that's the main point of your reasoning for sending him down when Drury and/or Prospal comes back, then I think it's flawed. It's only the rare rookie that shows the kind of consistency you are looking for and it doesn't matter whether they came from the CHL, NCAA or AHL.

The question here is whether or not he figures out how to be consistent or whether or not he stays this way. I think, at the very least, he'll figure out most of the way and that will make him a good 2nd liner like Dubinsky or Callahan (not comparing their games, just what might be his ceiling). If he really figures it out, that will make him a legit first line player.
Yeah, good post, more or less what I was trying to get at. I think the best thing the AHL could do for him is maybe give him a slightly less physical and tough environment to get physically used to the rigors of the season, but that is really only all that beneficial for the team, not so much the player. If the NHL grind is going to wear him down, the AHL grind probably would too.

edit: I also think it's on the coaching staff to make sure that he's not overworked and given the right kind of minutes. So far I think they've done a good job.


Last edited by Levitate: 12-10-2010 at 01:20 PM.
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12-10-2010, 01:14 PM
  #67
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Nice to even entertain the thought but I don't think he's gonna get it.

He's in the process of surpassing all that I've expected of him...

I'm not sure what more he can do. Keep up the good work!!!

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12-10-2010, 01:19 PM
  #68
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Stepan is smart enough to learn the game at the NHL level without having to adjust to the AHL first.

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12-10-2010, 01:28 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
If he truly wasn't ready for the NHL the Rangers wouldn't have kept him up. I know the standard response to that is "but they needed a guy to hype" but I just don't buy it. They didn't have a problem sending down McDonagh after hyping him up
Eh, I don't think McDonagh was hyped the same way...but that's not the reason I feel they kept him up. They just have a staggering lack of playmaking ability on the team.

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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
sting,

Your problem with Stepan is his ability to play the same game on every shift, yet even guys who become good players in the NHL after a good AHL stint have that problem. That's not indicative of a need of AHL seasoning. You don't learn how to be consistent in the NHL by playing in the AHL. You learn it by getting game experience in the NHL.
It's not so much consistency. Consistency is a problem for a guy like Dubinsky. That's more like not getting involved in the action sometimes. It's that there are certain times or situations during a game where you can see Stepan isn't able to play his game. It's not that he's holding back or not inspired enough to participate, it's that there are some things he can't do. Sometimes he does things that, if you watched him play in college, he would have done something different (and better) in that same circumstance. It's due to a lack of speed, strength, or just inexperience, or some combo of these factors. I think the middle ground that the AHL offers is a good environment for a player from the NCAA to gradually find a work around for this type of issue.

Quote:
The question here is whether or not he figures out how to be consistent or whether or not he stays this way. I think, at the very least, he'll figure out most of the way and that will make him a good 2nd liner like Dubinsky or Callahan (not comparing their games, just what might be his ceiling). If he really figures it out, that will make him a legit first line player.
I agree about his ceiling and potential. I expect him to be a really good second line center, 60-70 points.

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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Who cares which teams he's playing well against... Honestly? It's his rookie season and this is all about him getting confidence at the NHL level and acclimating himself to this level of competition.... Over-scrutinizing a 20 year old first year player's is unwarranted....
I'm not scrutinizing his play. I'm scrutinizing the decision to play him here rather than the AHL. I think, based on the situation, he's doing the best he can.

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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
If the NHL grind is going to wear him down, the AHL grind probably would too.
The scheduling of the AHL season is no piece of cake, but it seems to be easier to handle for a guy not acclimated to the long grind of a pro season. I've heard this opinion from people in the game, that for a young player, the AHL schedule is a chance to get used to what it feels like and learn how to make adjustments. Then, when you get to the NHL, you already have a better idea of how you need to manage yourself.

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12-10-2010, 01:37 PM
  #70
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Eh, I don't think McDonagh was hyped the same way...but that's not the reason I feel they kept him up. They just have a staggering lack of playmaking ability on the team.
Yes, yes he was hyped the same way. Easily. Everyone was hearing about how McDonagh was going to make the Rangers and how badly the team wanted him to make it, on and on and on.

We definitely heard that the Rangers really wanted both guys to make the team, though I do agree Stepan filled a bigger hole on the team.

But again, I think the coaches are doing a pretty good job not putting everything on his shoulders and making him the lynchpin to the success of the team. He's getting good minutes but not overwhelming and he's not being expected to carry the team as a true #1 center or something. I think that's what can damage prospects the most...putting the weight of the team on their shoulders and being like "if you **** up then it's your fault our season goes down the drain!"

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12-10-2010, 01:44 PM
  #71
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Yes, yes he was hyped the same way. Easily. Everyone was hearing about how McDonagh was going to make the Rangers and how badly the team wanted him to make it, on and on and on.

We definitely heard that the Rangers really wanted both guys to make the team, though I do agree Stepan filled a bigger hole on the team.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think, once the preseason rolled around, it was all Stepan, all the time. Seemed like McDonagh, who had been made out to be the more likely of the two to make the team over the summer, had been a little forgotten about (which is great, because he also shouldn't be in the NHL yet).

Quote:
But again, I think the coaches are doing a pretty good job not putting everything on his shoulders and making him the lynchpin to the success of the team. He's getting good minutes but not overwhelming and he's not being expected to carry the team as a true #1 center or something. I think that's what can damage prospects the most...putting the weight of the team on their shoulders and being like "if you **** up then it's your fault our season goes down the drain!"
I'm with you here. That can be very damaging, and they haven't done that to him. But that also comes into play with my feeling on him going to the minors. In the minors, I like the minutes he gets and the role he gets more, especially when you consider the level of competition. I think the experience that an offensively skilled real NHL prospect can get in the AHL is valuable. That time to learn the nuances and begin to dominate offensively.

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12-10-2010, 01:47 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree. I think, once the preseason rolled around, it was all Stepan, all the time. Seemed like McDonagh, who had been made out to be the more likely of the two to make the team over the summer, had been a little forgotten about (which is great, because he also shouldn't be in the NHL yet).
Well yeah Stepan got more "hype" at that point because he was performing well and earning a spot on the team, while McDonagh wasn't quite doing the same. But that was all based on play.

Quote:
I'm with you here. That can be very damaging, and they haven't done that to him. But that also comes into play with my feeling on him going to the minors. In the minors, I like the minutes he gets and the role he gets more, especially when you consider the level of competition. I think the experience that an offensively skilled real NHL prospect can get in the AHL is valuable. That time to learn the nuances and begin to dominate offensively.
Again, my worry is more that he learns the nuances of AHL hockey...not NHL hockey

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12-10-2010, 01:48 PM
  #73
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You only send down a player if he's overwhelmed on some level. Stepan is NHL-ready and should be playing in the NHL. The AHL is for developing players to be ready for the big leagues. You don't send down someone that's already ready.

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12-10-2010, 02:02 PM
  #74
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Brobrovsky is the Calder leader IMO. He's playing really well and looks to easily eclipse 30 wins this season. it'll take at least a 60 point season to out-rookie his season. Probably more like 70 though.

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12-10-2010, 03:22 PM
  #75
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I think it's better for Stepan to hone his game in the NHL since 1- the playmaking type of game he plays has allowed him to overcome his physical shortcomings and 2- by doing this, I don't see how you can say his development is being hurt. He's learning the NHL game, playing with our best player, and most importantly, producing and winning games. I don't think he's rushed...I think he's ready for the NHL. He has NHL level talent and it's more important for him to hone that since his game relies on it. He can work on his stature during the season and off-season.

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