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If we can move into the top 12 from 24th...

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06-22-2004, 09:13 AM
  #1
JR#9*
 
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If we can move into the top 12 from 24th...

by offering up the 24th and 37th, 51st picks who do most think they'll target with such a move.

To me it's a no brainer as it's great to have all the picks we have amoung the top 51 but this draft has to be all about quality and not quantity to me as we need top end talent to give us potential top 2 line, top 4 d-man prospects.

If they can get another top 10-12 pick I personally would take a chance on Schremp who seems to be the obvious wildcard of the draft class.If he pans out you have an offensive force capable of putting up very nice #'s on one of your top 2 lines.If not you still have alot of 2nd rounders left and already should have a pretty safe pick at the #6 spot( as long as we get one of Olesz-Tukonen-Ladd).

Obviously I'd love a shot at Thelen but doubt we'd be able to move up to a spot where we could nab him so being that is the case I also would seriously consider taking Meszaros or Valabik with a 2nd 1st if we could move up and Schremp was already gone.

Bottom line is that out of all the picks all I want to come out of this draft is 2 guys that have a very legit shot at producing as a top 6 forward--top 4 defenseman for us in the future.Move the quanity for a shot a better shot at quality.

Saturday can't get here soon enough!


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06-22-2004, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
by offering up the 24th and 37th, 51st picks who do most think they'll target with such a move.

To me it's a no brainer as it's great to have all the picks we have amoung the top 51 but this draft has to be all about quality and not quantity to me as we need top end talent to give us potential top 2 line, top 4 d-man prospects.
I disagree. When a draft is such as this one, with players outside of the top few picks all being considered risky, with few "complete" prospects in the draft, it's not about quality. It is, in fact, about quantity. It's about spreading risk over many prospects trying to get one that works. What happens if we trade 3 picks for the #12 pick and the #12 pick ends up a bust? It's the same as if we had picked three busts. I'd rather keep the three picks and take three shots at getting a player or two than taking one shot with the player of our choice.

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06-22-2004, 09:33 AM
  #3
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
I disagree. When a draft is such as this one, with players outside of the top few picks all being considered risky, with few "complete" prospects in the draft, it's not about quality. It is, in fact, about quantity. It's about spreading risk over many prospects trying to get one that works. What happens if we trade 3 picks for the #12 pick and the #12 pick ends up a bust? It's the same as if we had picked three busts. I'd rather keep the three picks and take three shots at getting a player or two than taking one shot with the player of our choice.
We have enough "safe" guys in the system already.

We are at the point where you have to swing for the fences and possibly take a boom or bust guy like Schremp who WON'T be there at 24.

Don't forget as well that we still would have the 36th pick as well as 2 more picks in the 40's so we still have ample opportunity to select quantity as well but with a pretty safe pick at 6 we need to move up and take a flyer on a high upside guy who may have some risk to him.

Our prospect pool calls for top end talent in a BIG way.

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06-22-2004, 09:37 AM
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I do agree Highly...

about spreading the risk, but if you can get two picks in the top twelve and still have three second rounders left, I don't think you'd be doing so badly. It's still five picks in the first two rounds (or am I overstating the picks by one? In any event, it would then be four in two rounds, which again, isn't too bad).

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06-22-2004, 09:43 AM
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If we could I would trade current players, like Rachunek, Dunham, and Poti to move up.
After the first 2 picks in the first round, I think we should go all boom/bust. We have enough 3rd and 4th line dept in Murray, Lacouture, Moore, Green, M Green,Ortmeyer.

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06-22-2004, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
We have enough "safe" guys in the system already.
Well, I didn't say anything about "safe" picks. I talked about spreading risk. To use your example, why trade three picks for Robbie Schremp when we may be able to keep those picks and get Travis Zajac, Blake Wheeler, and Roman Tesliuk. All are high-end potential guys. None of them are "safe", but any could be hits or misses.

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06-22-2004, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownbutfamous
If we could I would trade current players, like Rachunek, Dunham, and Poti to move up.
After the first 2 picks in the first round, I think we should go all boom/bust. We have enough 3rd and 4th line dept in Murray, Lacouture, Moore, Green, M Green,Ortmeyer.
I agree. I would love to see us move up to get Schremp, but I am aprehensive when it comes to trading multiple picks for one pick in a draft like this. However, if we could package Poti, Dunham etc. to move up, I'd definatley be for it.

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06-22-2004, 10:33 AM
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yeah, i'd rather not trade 3 picks for 1...unless we were moving into the top 5. the field is apparently so level after that point that i'd rather take my chances striking out on three guys than one. i'm fine with trading players for picks or even 2 picks for 1. i just don't want to come away from this draft with all our hopes pinned on 1 guy who we took at #12 when we had to give up the farm to get him.

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06-22-2004, 10:35 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
Well, I didn't say anything about "safe" picks. I talked about spreading risk. To use your example, why trade three picks for Robbie Schremp when we may be able to keep those picks and get Travis Zajac, Blake Wheeler, and Roman Tesliuk. All are high-end potential guys. None of them are "safe", but any could be hits or misses.
I agree 100% no doubt that IMO is the best way to go. And if you get a guy like Pineault in the 2nd your still getting a potential franchise player, thats how wide open this draft is.

Now If we were to draft Tukonen i wouldn't be opposed to moving up a few slots say the 19th and then the 20th to take Lauri K and Nikolenan(sp)

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06-22-2004, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ansky1213
I agree. I would love to see us move up to get Schremp, but I am aprehensive when it comes to trading multiple picks for one pick in a draft like this. However, if we could package Poti, Dunham etc. to move up, I'd definatley be for it.

These guys have very, very little value especially considering their salaries and the upcoming CBA.They won't get us moved up in the 1st if offered.

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06-22-2004, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rnyquist
I agree 100% no doubt that IMO is the best way to go. And if you get a guy like Pineault in the 2nd your still getting a potential franchise player, thats how wide open this draft is.

Now If we were to draft Tukonen i wouldn't be opposed to moving up a few slots say the 19th and then the 20th to take Lauri K and Nikolenan(sp)
But you guys still have to realize that even if we did trade the 24th, 37 and 51st picks to move into the top 10 or 12 we still would have picks at 6, another in the top 12, 36th to get a Pineault or the like and then we still have 46th and 48th to take guys our scouts may like in the 2nd.

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06-22-2004, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JR#9
But you guys still have to realize that even if we did trade the 24th, 37 and 51st picks to move into the top 10 or 12 we still would have picks at 6, another in the top 12, 36th to get a Pineault or the like and then we still have 46th and 48th to take guys our scouts may like in the 2nd.
And what if Thelen, Radulov and Schremp are gone? you want to waste all that to pick Wolski or Chipchura, no thanks. IMO after the top 12 the playing field isn't that uneven from 13th-the middle of the 2nd round with guys going anywhere so i don't feel its a sure bet to move up. NOW if a guy like Schremp, Radulov or Thelen is still at 12 thats another story, but if its just to move up with no idea who will be available, no thanks, there's so many other guys i'd love to talk in the 2nd round.

BTW Rachunek and Poti have pretty good value. While they're not liked by rangers fans, it doesn't mean they're own personal value is bad. I think Poti could net us a top 15 and Rachunek even more because he's still quite young, lots of experience and very cheap.

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06-22-2004, 11:21 AM
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I dont think it would take the 24th, 37th and 51st. Nashville's Poile said that he would be interested in trading down from #15 for just two second round picks. I'd do the 24th, 37th and a much later pick.

Oops. I thought it was only meant to be the 12th overall not top 12.

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06-22-2004, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rnyquist
And what if Thelen, Radulov and Schremp are gone? you want to waste all that to pick Wolski or Chipchura, no thanks. IMO after the top 12 the playing field isn't that uneven from 13th-the middle of the 2nd round with guys going anywhere so i don't feel its a sure bet to move up. NOW if a guy like Schremp, Radulov or Thelen is still at 12 thats another story, but if its just to move up with no idea who will be available, no thanks, there's so many other guys i'd love to talk in the 2nd round.

BTW Rachunek and Poti have pretty good value. While they're not liked by rangers fans, it doesn't mean they're own personal value is bad. I think Poti could net us a top 15 and Rachunek even more because he's still quite young, lots of experience and very cheap.

Obviously you don't make the trade unless the desired prospect is still available.Draft day deals are most times last second deals that aren't made unless certain players are guarenteed to be avilable such as the Dev's moving up at the last second to nab Parise last year.Do you think they made that deal a week ahead of time???

As for Poti there is no way in hell he could net a top 15 pick!!!!And no he isn't a victim of NYR's fans but rather a one dimensional d-man who has plenty of holes in his game.His value is no where near what you think, especially at 3 million + a yr.

And Racunek you think will net us even more that the top 15 pick you have Poti getting us???That's not even close to being reality.

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06-22-2004, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR#9
Obviously you don't make the trade unless the desired prospect is still available.Draft day deals are most times last second deals that aren't made unless certain players are guarenteed to be avilable such as the Dev's moving up at the last second to nab Parise last year.Do you think they made that deal a week ahead of time???

As for Poti there is no way in hell he could net a top 15 pick!!!!And no he isn't a victim of NYR's fans but rather a one dimensional d-man who has plenty of holes in his game.His value is no where near what you think, especially at 3 million + a yr.

And Racunek you think will net us even more that the top 15 pick you have Poti getting us???That's not even close to being reality.
I think Poti is a possibility. (Sather will try his darndest to do so.) However, I think it will have to be in combination with a pick. For example, poti and the 36th to Atlanta for the 10th and a conditional pick next year. (Say, a 3rd or 4th if Atlanta re-signs him.) Or, Poti and the 51st to a team like Dallas or St. Louis for their 1st and a lesser d-man.

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06-22-2004, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jas
I think Poti is a possibility. (Sather will try his darndest to do so.) However, I think it will have to be in combination with a pick. For example, poti and the 36th to Atlanta for the 10th and a conditional pick next year. (Say, a 3rd or 4th if Atlanta re-signs him.) Or, Poti and the 51st to a team like Dallas or St. Louis for their 1st and a lesser d-man.
I also think he'll try to move him but there is no way Poti alone can return a top 15 pick with all factors considered and there is zero chance that Racunek will get even better than that as was suggested.

Packaging either with a early 2nd rounder will certainly make a deal more likely and if Slats could pull it off more power to him.

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06-22-2004, 11:48 AM
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Oh no i wasn't saying Poti on his own, but rather Poti+ a pick to move up. I'd love to do Poti +51st, and eat all his contract for St.Louis' pick or something. I dunno a lot can be done. While you may not think they have value, there are some. Poti at the very least will get you a 2nd rounder on his own. On the PP and the rush he's fine, but being retarded the rangers coaches felt putting him on the PK and placing him with another defencively challenged defencemen,Leetch, was smart. Don't think for a minute that Poti's game wasn't hurt by playing with Leetch. If both are rushing, who stays back?

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06-22-2004, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rnyquist
Oh no i wasn't saying Poti on his own, but rather Poti+ a pick to move up. I'd love to do Poti +51st, and eat all his contract for St.Louis' pick or something. I dunno a lot can be done. While you may not think they have value, there are some. Poti at the very least will get you a 2nd rounder on his own. On the PP and the rush he's fine, but being retarded the rangers coaches felt putting him on the PK and placing him with another defencively challenged defencemen,Leetch, was smart. Don't think for a minute that Poti's game wasn't hurt by playing with Leetch. If both are rushing, who stays back?

I misunderstood what you were getting at then.

And I think Poti will have a much better season this yr as well as he will be the #1 option as far as providing offense from the blueline.

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06-22-2004, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JR#9
I misunderstood what you were getting at then.

And I think Poti will have a much better season this yr as well as he will be the #1 option as far as providing offense from the blueline.
Without a doubt, but they need to get him with a steady partner. Tjutin wouldn't be a good idea, he's still a kid, but kasparitis might be better or even getting a guy like Richardson who can just sit back and let Poti run around like a chicken without a head

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06-22-2004, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jas
I think Poti is a possibility. (Sather will try his darndest to do so.) However, I think it will have to be in combination with a pick. For example, poti and the 36th to Atlanta for the 10th and a conditional pick next year. (Say, a 3rd or 4th if Atlanta re-signs him.) Or, Poti and the 51st to a team like Dallas or St. Louis for their 1st and a lesser d-man.
Come on, Jas. You are not being the least bit realistic. Poti, a 2nd rounder, & a 3rd rounder from next years draft, in return for the 10th overall pick? With all due respect, there's just NO WAY that this has even a remote chance of occuring. You are not dealing for Atlanta's 1st overall pick without giving one back. And please forget the Poti + the 24th for Atlanta's 10th. That has no shot either.
Niether Dalls nor St. Louis will just give up their 1st round pick for Poti and a lesser d-man.
I have no idea where the thought process that has given Poti such a high value originated, but it is simply not true. NO TEAM is going to give up their 1st round pick, for a 26 year old that is being paid over $3m, is an utter failure as a defenseman, and is afraid of contact.

" Poti at the very least will get you a 2nd rounder on his own."

Steve Sullivan got traded for a pair of 2nd round picks. NO WAY does Poti fetch a 2nd rounder. One cannot understate that Poti's contract, for the type of game he has, is overpaid. Poti is an offensive defenseman who completely absconds the defensive part of his game. And, he had less assists that Jan friggin' Hlavac last year. Who in their right mind is giving up ANYTHING for him?
I think that people equate with their own desire to get rid of Poti, with other teams wanting him.

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06-22-2004, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by HighlyRegardedRookie
I disagree. When a draft is such as this one, with players outside of the top few picks all being considered risky, with few "complete" prospects in the draft, it's not about quality. It is, in fact, about quantity. It's about spreading risk over many prospects trying to get one that works. What happens if we trade 3 picks for the #12 pick and the #12 pick ends up a bust? It's the same as if we had picked three busts. I'd rather keep the three picks and take three shots at getting a player or two than taking one shot with the player of our choice.

I 110% agree.

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06-22-2004, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Come on, Jas. You are not being the least bit realistic. Poti, a 2nd rounder, & a 3rd rounder from next years draft, in return for the 10th overall pick? With all due respect, there's just NO WAY that this has even a remote chance of occuring. You are not dealing for Atlanta's 1st overall pick without giving one back. And please forget the Poti + the 24th for Atlanta's 10th. That has no shot either.
Niether Dalls nor St. Louis will just give up their 1st round pick for Poti and a lesser d-man.
I have no idea where the thought process that has given Poti such a high value originated, but it is simply not true. NO TEAM is going to give up their 1st round pick, for a 26 year old that is being paid over $3m, is an utter failure as a defenseman, and is afraid of contact.

" Poti at the very least will get you a 2nd rounder on his own."

Steve Sullivan got traded for a pair of 2nd round picks. NO WAY does Poti fetch a 2nd rounder. One cannot understate that Poti's contract, for the type of game he has, is overpaid. Poti is an offensive defenseman who completely absconds the defensive part of his game. And, he had less assists that Jan friggin' Hlavac last year. Who in their right mind is giving up ANYTHING for him?
I think that people equate with their own desire to get rid of Poti, with other teams wanting him.
Sorry, TB, but I see it as you who can't see through your own dislike for Poti to realize he does have value. In the right situation, with the right partner, and with the right system, Poti can be successful in this league. And, teams lacking a player of his talent were willing to trade for him a few years ago. (The Rangers were not the only suitors.) And, he has only one year left on his contract. I admit I dislike the guy. But, I haven't let that cloud my judgement of his abilities.

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06-22-2004, 01:25 PM
  #23
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Poti's salary is not from overpayment...he got that from arbitration so I'm not exactly sure how he could be overpaid. Sure he didn't produce last year but he did well the year before. I think a lot of people underestimate the value in some of our players just because they dislike them or miss the player that he was traded for...I think Poti still has plenty of upside and hopefully some GM out there will take a chance on him.

Anyway, I'd love to see Poti gone and I think Atlanta's pick could be had for Poti, #24 and a second rounder...say #37.

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06-22-2004, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by True Blue
Come on, Jas. You are not being the least bit realistic. Poti, a 2nd rounder, & a 3rd rounder from next years draft, in return for the 10th overall pick? With all due respect, there's just NO WAY that this has even a remote chance of occuring. You are not dealing for Atlanta's 1st overall pick without giving one back. And please forget the Poti + the 24th for Atlanta's 10th. That has no shot either.
Niether Dalls nor St. Louis will just give up their 1st round pick for Poti and a lesser d-man.
I have no idea where the thought process that has given Poti such a high value originated, but it is simply not true. NO TEAM is going to give up their 1st round pick, for a 26 year old that is being paid over $3m, is an utter failure as a defenseman, and is afraid of contact.

" Poti at the very least will get you a 2nd rounder on his own."

Steve Sullivan got traded for a pair of 2nd round picks. NO WAY does Poti fetch a 2nd rounder. One cannot understate that Poti's contract, for the type of game he has, is overpaid. Poti is an offensive defenseman who completely absconds the defensive part of his game. And, he had less assists that Jan friggin' Hlavac last year. Who in their right mind is giving up ANYTHING for him?
I think that people equate with their own desire to get rid of Poti, with other teams wanting him.
We got a 2nd AND 3rd(Kozak) round picks for Malakhov. MALAKHOV!!! The most inconsistant and lazy player on the edge of retirement. Poti could easily get us an early 2nd rounder.

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06-22-2004, 01:33 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by TKLOOCH22
...Poile said that he would be interested in trading down from #15 for just two second round picks. I'd do the 24th, 37th and a much later pick.
.
If he would be willing to deal just for two 2nd's why then do you turn around and offer a 1st rounder, a high 2nd rounder, PLUS another pick?

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