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Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing

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Old
12-14-2010, 12:48 PM
  #26
Tom ServoMST3K
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I thought people were foucusing on parking too much

I recall someone saying area management was 1 Mill ish per year for coulumbus

And so it continues...........



(sry for my terrible spelling BTW)


Last edited by Tom ServoMST3K: 12-14-2010 at 01:17 PM.
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Old
12-14-2010, 12:49 PM
  #27
peter sullivan
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^ it was free in phoenix....

their points make sense to me....now we'll see if it is just sabre rattling.

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12-14-2010, 12:55 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marknuck311 View Post
Looks like there could be some P.O'ed Arizonians at the council meeting tonight:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoen...x-dollars.html
Wow! What a backlash! It's not going to be pretty.

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12-14-2010, 12:56 PM
  #29
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This is the part of Goldwater's letter that clearly articulates the rubbishness of the arena management fee:

Quote:
The fact that the City's payments are owed only in the first few years, and are tied directly to the team's earnings for the remainder of the 30-year term, suggests that the payments are to ensure the team's financial success and not to pay a reasonable fee for the value of any legitimate Arena service.
Good luck, Glendale.

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12-14-2010, 01:03 PM
  #30
Jesus Christ Horburn
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Can someone remind me what sort of power Goldwater Institute has?

I haven't really heard their name come up since the bankruptcy (other than a few comments here and there and their negotiations case against COG regarding public records relating to the Coyotes), and to be honest I was surprised they were even involved in the bankruptcy when it took place.

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12-14-2010, 01:05 PM
  #31
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More from Shoalts

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1837273/

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:06 PM
  #32
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Since the lease deal with MH became public, I haven't been able to get the movie Deliverance out of my head - Ned Beatty and the COG have too much in common!

Anyway, Killion would probably know best as he has experience in the entertainment industry (at least that's how it appears) about management fees. But from what I can see, the going rate is from $1 million per year and up for a comparable arena.

The BOK Center in Tulsa, which is a 2 year old building that cost about $200 million to build, holds about 17,000 for hockey, and has a few more events than Jobing.com arena (albeit with a WNBA franchise, and a teams in the AFL and CHL) pays about $950,000.00 a year to SMG (the largest operator in North America).

SMG also operates the Oklahoma City Center, where the Thunder play, and I remember reading somewhere that the contract was a little over $1 million a year.

These might not be perfect comparisons, but point out how out of whack the $17 million is.

All indications from their actions (present and previous) point to Goldwater filing suit in short order after the lease is passed, and this thing will be dragged out further, which is not good news for Coyotes fans.

What happens from there, is anyone's guess. As I said yesterday, game on


Last edited by elvisisdead: 12-14-2010 at 01:12 PM.
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Old
12-14-2010, 01:09 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
Can someone remind me what sort of power Goldwater Institute has?

I haven't really heard their name come up since the bankruptcy (other than a few comments here and there and their negotiations case against COG regarding public records relating to the Coyotes), and to be honest I was surprised they were even involved in the bankruptcy when it took place.
"The Goldwater Institute is an independent government watchdog supported by people who are committed to expanding free enterprise and liberty. The Institute develops innovative, principled solutions to pressing issues facing the states and enforces constitutionally limited government through litigation. The Institute focuses its work on expanding economic freedom and educational opportunity, bringing transparency to government, and protecting the rights guaranteed to Americans by the U.S. and state constitutions. The Goldwater Institute was founded in 1988 with Barry Goldwater’s blessing."

from http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/aboutgoldwater

video http://www.goldwaterinstitute.org/fi.../download/3750


Last edited by Tom ServoMST3K: 12-14-2010 at 01:10 PM. Reason: video link
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Old
12-14-2010, 01:09 PM
  #34
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Since no one has even attempted to justify the COG's moronic investment in the future of the Coyotes in Glendale, I'll get the ball rolling. Feel free to add to this or help fill in some of the blanks. Only the incremental costs / revenues from keeping the team in the Jobbing.com arena will be considered, so don't mention things like arena debt payments or non-hockey events or the $25 million that might already be out the door for this year's losses.

Assumptions:
- 47 Coyotes games per year - 3 preseason, 41 regular season, 3 playoff (long-term avg per team per year in a 30-team NHL)
- 13,000 tickets sold per game
- 5,500 parking spaces at 100% capacity for each game at an average of $10
- 6% interest rate on $100 million parking lot expense, 30-year amortization, avg annual debt service of $7.2 million
- $17 million average arena management deal per year

Annual Benefit of Keeping the Coyotes in Glendale:

ADD: $6.0 million rent payments from team
ADD: $2.6 million for ticket surcharges ($4.30 per ticket)
ADD: $2.6 million for parking
ADD: $___ for naming & advertising rights in the parking lots
ADD: $___ for municipal sales taxes on money spent at / around Jobbing.com during Coyotes games
ADD: $___ for sales taxes from preventing tenants from leaving Westgate
ADD: $___ for property taxes not declining on surrounding area
ADD: $___ for additional taxes for special tax district set up in and around arena

LESS: $17.0 million in annual arena management fee
LESS: $7.2 million in annual debt service on new bond issue (annual cost of parking lot bonds)
LESS: $___ for future capital expenditures relating specifically to the hockey team
LESS: $___ for non-hockey event revenue that appears to be going to Hulsizer if the Coyotes stay

So far I have Glendale losing about $13 million more under this lease agreement than they would lose if the Coyotes left tomorrow. What am I missing?


Last edited by CGG: 12-14-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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Old
12-14-2010, 01:11 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
I want my.... I want my.... I want my CFD.

... money for nothing ... and the team for free ...


Edit : Oops, already done. Great minds think alike..or fools seldom differ.


Last edited by Niagara67: 12-14-2010 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Edit : Oops, already done. Great mindz think alike..or fools seldom differ.
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Old
12-14-2010, 01:12 PM
  #36
Tom ServoMST3K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
This is the part of Goldwater's letter that clearly articulates the rubbishness of the arena management fee:



Good luck, Glendale.
where can i find that letter

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:13 PM
  #37
Free Edler
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Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
Can someone remind me what sort of power Goldwater Institute has?
They're a conservative legal lobbying group. The only major tool at their disposal right now is suing the city because they feel the lease agreement/sale violates the gift clause. That could hold up the sale. Apart from that, they don't really have any power.

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:15 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGG View Post
Since no one has even attempted to justify the COG's moronic investment in the future of the Coyotes in Glendale, I'll get the ball rolling. Feel free to add to this or help fill in some of the blanks. Only the incremental costs / revenues from keeping the team in the Jobbing.com arena will be considered, so don't mention things like arena debt payments or non-hockey events or the $25 million that might already be out the door for this year's losses.

Assumptions:
- 47 Coyotes games per year - 3 preseason, 41 regular season, 3 playoff (long-term avg per team per year in a 30-team NHL)
- 13,000 tickets sold per game
- 5,500 parking spaces at 100% capacity for each game at an average of $10
- 6% interest rate on $100 million parking lot expense, 30-year amortization, avg annual debt service of $7.2 million
- $17 million average arena management deal per year

Annual Benefit of Keeping the Coyotes in Glendale:

ADD: $6.0 million rent payments from team
ADD: $2.6 million for ticket surcharges ($4.30 per ticket)
ADD: $2.6 million for parking
ADD: $___ for naming & advertising rights in the parking lots
ADD: $___ for municipal sales taxes on money spent at / around Jobbing.com
ADD: $___ for sales taxes from preventing tenants from leaving Westgate
ADD: $___ for property taxes not declining on surrounding area
ADD: $___ for additional taxes for special tax district set up in and around arena

LESS: $17.0 million in annual arena management fee
LESS: $7.2 million in annual debt service on new bond issue (annual cost of parking lot bonds)
LESS: $___ for future capital expenditures relating specifically to the hockey team
LESS: $___ for non-hockey event revenue that appears to be going to Hulsizer if the Coyotes stay

So far I have Glendale losing about $13 million more under this lease agreement than they would lose if the Coyotes left tomorrow. What am I missing?
Less maintinance and employees to tend to the lot which over 23 years will be <1 million

(initial cost goes from 100 million to 101 million)

i still dont get the 25 million extra is that to cover the loss of the 25 million in escrow? isnt that illegal as well?

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:18 PM
  #39
TaketheCannoli
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Riot View Post
Can someone remind me what sort of power Goldwater Institute has?

I haven't really heard their name come up since the bankruptcy (other than a few comments here and there and their negotiations case against COG regarding public records relating to the Coyotes), and to be honest I was surprised they were even involved in the bankruptcy when it took place.
They are a conservative political organization who like anyone else can file a lawsuit if they so choose.

They really aren't the big deal many seem to think.

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12-14-2010, 01:19 PM
  #40
CGG
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where can i find that letter
See the attached file in post # 24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimli View Post
i still dont get the 25 million extra is that to cover the loss of the 25 million in escrow? isnt that illegal as well?
Probably, but Glendale would argue that's just as legitimate as the $100 million for parking rights and the $17 million annual arena management deal. If they really did think the $25 million was perfectly defendable, they probably wouldn't be so adamate that the funds not be touched yet.

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:20 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimli View Post
I thought people were foucusing on parking too much

I recall someone saying area management was 1 Mill ish per year for coulumbus

And so it continues...........



(sry for my terrible spelling BTW)
They do talk about the parking; however, the arena management fee is the easiest to attack based on the information available. That being said it may be a bunch of hot air in the end from Goldwater.

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:21 PM
  #42
AllByDesign
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Doesn't look like they are trying too hard
Really? The last paragraph sounds quite similar to a leather glove across the face and the pronouncement 'I challenge you to a duel'...

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by King Woodballs View Post

WITH SOUND.

Should be interesting to see in the coming days what most people would reasonably argue is fair market value for arena management. Doug Maclean was recounting yesterday that they paid $250,000 to SMG to manage the arena in Columbus, but that the team was responsible for a lot of expenses on top of that.

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:21 PM
  #44
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How come the $17 million arena management is only over 5 years? Shouldn't that be for the entire 23 years of the lease if it is actually for arena management? Or is it simply a 5 year contract which has to be renewed in 5 years?

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:22 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by leek View Post
They are a conservative political organization who like anyone else can file a lawsuit if they so choose.

They really aren't the big deal many seem to think.
However, they have the incentive and the funds needed to at least attempt a lawsuit when governments strike deals like this that absolutely reek. Your average Glendale citizen cannot stop it on his own, whereas Goldwater might be able to.

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12-14-2010, 01:22 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Keep movin', movin', movin',
Though they're disapprovin',
Keep them threads a movin' Rawhide!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just rope and throw and grab 'em,
Soon we'll be living high and wide.
By my post counts calculatin'
We will all still be waitin', be waiting at the end of this ride.

Move 'em on, head 'em up,
Head 'em up, move 'em out,
Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!
Post 'em out, read 'em in
Read 'em in, post 'em out,
Cut 'em out, paste 'em in Rawhide.

05-05-2009 Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes
05-07-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part II
05-18-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part III
05-22-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part IV
06-03-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix part V
06-09-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI
06-12-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VII: I'm just waitin' on a judge
06-16-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part VIII: It's dead, Jim
06-24-2009 Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey
07-25-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part X: The Truth? You Can't Handle The Truth!
08-03-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XI: A Fistful of Dollars?
08-07-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XII: For a Few Dollars More
08-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIII: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
08-21-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XIV: The Wrath of Baum
08-27-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XV - SITREP: SNAFU
09-02-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVI: Barbarian at the Gate
09-08-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVII: Wake Me Up When September Ends
09-10-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy/ownership Part XVIII: Is that a pale horse in the distance?
09-12-2009 Phoenix bankruptcy Part XIX: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Baum
09-21-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XX: There Will Be Baum
09-28-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXI: 2009 -- A Sports Odyssey
10-26-2009 Phoenix Bankruptcy Part XXII: Long and winding road

11-24-2009 Keeping up with potential owners for NHL Phoenix Coyotes (UPD: Ice Edge signs LOI)
03-14-2010 Part II. Potential owners of NHL's Phoenix Coyotes
03-26-2010 Part III. Prospective Owners - Phoenix Coyotes (UPD Lease vote 4/13; IEH signs MOU)
04-10-2010 Part IV Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy; UPD COG approves Reinsdorf MOU, not IEH MOU
05-02-2010 Part V Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy UPD Reinsdorf out? IEH back in? else Winnipeg?
05-11-2010 Part VI Phoenix Coyotes post bankruptcy
05-23-2010 Part VII Phoenix Coyotes post bankrtuptcy
06-07-2010 Part VIII: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankrtuptcy
06-22-2010 Part IX: Phoenix Coyotes Post-bankruptcy UPD: Pres Moss fired 6/30 with IEH input
07-26-2010 Part X: Phoenix Coyotes - Between Scylla and Charybdis
08-27-2010 Part XI: Phoenix Coyotes -- Greetings, Starfighter, You have been selected ...
09-16-2010 Part XII: Phx Coyotes - Still haven't found what I'm looking for
10-12-2010 Part XIII: Phoenix Coyotes - The Final Cut?
10-27-2010 Part XIV: Phoenix Coyotes - To Infinity And Beyond....
12-05-2010 Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore
12-14-2010 Part XVI: Phoenix -- Money for Nothing

and only III more threads until our "XIXth Nervous Breakdown"

This is the greatest forum post I've seen in a very long time.

Doesn't hurt that I just flashed back to the Blues Brothers singing Rawhide and kdb ended everything with a Stones reference.

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:23 PM
  #47
kdb209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg
So there is one way Hulsizer can get out of the lease.

Hulsizer has an escape clause that might allow him to move the team: If the city ever misses a payment for managing the arena, he can brake the proposed lease.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle1836409/
Not really. Under Article 14 (Defaults and Remedies), in order for the Arena Manager to terminate the lease:
- the city has to be notified that it is in default
- the city does not cure the default within 30 days
- the Arena Manager files suit for specific performance and/or damages
- a court has to order specific performance or damages
- the city does not comply with the court order within 90 days.

Then, and only then, can the Arena Manager terminate the lease for breach.

The Team can sue for damages or specific performance, but it cannot terminate the lease.

There are special procedures for default in Management Fees:
- the city has to be notified that it is in default
- the city does not cure the default within 30 days
- the parties submit to binding arbitration within 45 days
- an arbiter rules within 210 days
- the city refuses to arbitrate or ignores the arbiters ruling
- the Arena Manager is unable to offset the the amount of the default by deducting it from money due to the city,

Then, and only then, and after a minimum of 300 days from the notice of default and a minimum of 30 days notice to the city of its intent, may the Arena Manager terminate the agreement.

Hardly what I would call an escape clause.

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:23 PM
  #48
metalfoot
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Wow. Time to get out the beer and popcorn again, I guess, with the GWI jumping into the fray... this is what we've all been waiting for!

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:27 PM
  #49
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

Shoalts on GWI threat

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Old
12-14-2010, 01:27 PM
  #50
Tom ServoMST3K
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Originally Posted by metalfoot View Post
Wow. Time to get out the beer and popcorn again, I guess, with the GWI jumping into the fray... this is what we've all been waiting for!
WEEEEELCOOME to the MAIN event

in one corner the challenger GWI

and in the other the defending champion with the coyotes future in the balence the COG!!!!!!!


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