HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

In Retrospect: The Turgeon trade

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-15-2010, 03:42 AM
  #1
schumway2
Registered User
 
schumway2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,207
vCash: 500
In Retrospect: The Turgeon trade

In the mid-nineties I wasn't old enough to understand the intricacies of the league and why trades were made. All I remember when Turgeon played for the Habs was that he was damn good. In the end why did they trade him after playing 1 full season with the Habs (in which he put up 96 pts) for Murray Baron, Shayne Corson and a draft pick? Not to mention they threw in Conroy and Fitzpatrick. Was it simply cause of Houle's suckitude as a GM?

schumway2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 03:50 AM
  #2
habtastic
Registered User
 
habtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai via MTL
Country: India
Posts: 9,414
vCash: 500
I still have no freakin clue. As much as I loved Muller, when Turgeon came in and we had him, Recchi and Damphousse, in retrospect (and even the time perhaps) it didn't seem as dire as the dark ages were and were going to get. I guess it was cuz he was captain (during the move to the BC if you remember). Turgeon the Surgeon (obviously doesn't rhyme, but that was the tagline). I remember him being very good. But hey, management then was awesome. Didn't we also have Rucinsky around that time developing into a decent forward? I just have a random memory of him scoring a hat trick in florida.

habtastic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 04:04 AM
  #3
Crystal Met
Registered User
 
Crystal Met's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,500
vCash: 500
I was young too but i remember the talk about ''the habs would never win a cup with turgeon as a captain''. I found a good article about all the captains of the 90's.http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...r-of-the-1990s. Here's the part about Turgeon:

Quote:
Pierre Turgeon, as per Corey's wishes, was then annointed the Canadiens new captain. Coming off an excellent 96 point season, he seemed to have everything in Corey's mind, a Habs captain needed. He was a quiet, clean living player, who also happened to be a star. Only Turgeon didn't really have his heart in the job.


After the Canadiens were ousted of the 1996 playoffs after one round, the criticism of all that Turgeon wasn't, came to a head. Turgeon was simply an offensive talent, and little else. He was a puppet captain, in a sense, and his leadership and desire were often being questioned. He had long worn a "tin man" reputation that he couldn't shake, and quickly became terribly unhappy in his pressured role as Canadiens captain.

What was also nagging at Turgeon was his demotion to third line center. The Habs started the 1996-97 season off well enough, and second year centerman Koivu was leading the league in scoring after 10 games. Top line center, Vincent Damphousse was also producing well and was employed in a two-way role totally alien to Turgeon.

Turgeon balked at the decreased ice time and complained to new GM Rejean Houle. The team tried to up Turgeon's minutes by having him on the left side of Koivu, and he registered 4 assists in his final game as a Hab. Houle, never one to show much patience with unhappy stars, dealt Turgeon to St.Louis in a package that returned a temporarily rejuvenated Shayne Corson to Montreal.

Crystal Met is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 06:57 AM
  #4
mikey82
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 27
vCash: 500
I remember at the time after we we're ousted from the playoffs, Houle was under pressure to add toughness which apparently we we're lacking (isn't this always the case? ) and this was the result

mikey82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 07:37 AM
  #5
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,766
vCash: 500
That was a good summary.

Damphousse had recently been moved to center and was playing the best hockey of his career. He was more of a 2 way player than Turgeon, and played with more grit which was more to Tremblay's liking.

Koivu was considered the best player outside of the NHL, had a solid rookie season and playoffs and was poised to be the future of the organization. It was clear early in the season that he had surpassed Turgeon and was the teams #1 or #2 C with Damphousse.

In retrospect, the deal was rushed. 15-20 games later Koivu sustained his first serious injury (in a brutal home and home with the Hawks), and Damphousse couldn't replicate the previous seasons numbers. The Habs wanted to add more sandpaper to the lineup and believe it or not at the time Murray Baron was considered a real good, tough stay at home guy in STL....of course he was a complete disaster in Montreal.

Patty Roy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 07:44 AM
  #6
Pepe Lemieux
Registered User
 
Pepe Lemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 88
vCash: 500
That trade is not that bad

Turgeon was a bit overated. He was still a good offensive player at the time be he only produced 80 pts once after he played in Montreal.

Corson played 4 decent seasons with the habs. He even made team Canada in Nagano. He was a tough customer and a great team player.

The problem was that the Molson's were giving us low budget at the time so we were forced to trade away our offensive guys like Recchi. So we were left whitout much offensive talent. Koivu -Savage and Corson were our first line guys and we had guys like Petrov, Rucinsky, Zubrus, Zholtok all them were injury prone.


It's a shame Corson signed with leafs as a UFA cause I think we would not talk about that trade this way.

Pepe Lemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 08:47 AM
  #7
Chazz
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Chazz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,486
vCash: 500
wow down memory lane

Chazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 09:01 AM
  #8
alexstream
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,396
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habtastic View Post
I still have no freakin clue. As much as I loved Muller, when Turgeon came in and we had him, Recchi and Damphousse, in retrospect (and even the time perhaps) it didn't seem as dire as the dark ages were and were going to get. I guess it was cuz he was captain (during the move to the BC if you remember). Turgeon the Surgeon (obviously doesn't rhyme, but that was the tagline). I remember him being very good. But hey, management then was awesome. Didn't we also have Rucinsky around that time developing into a decent forward? I just have a random memory of him scoring a hat trick in florida.
team lacked caracter. we had 3 good centers (damphousse, turgeon, Koivu).
They wanted to make room for Koivu and get a "power forward" winger.

that's my take on it.

alexstream is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 09:12 AM
  #9
googlymoogly
Registered User
 
googlymoogly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,025
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepe Lemieux View Post
That trade is not that bad

Turgeon was a bit overated. He was still a good offensive player at the time be he only produced 80 pts once after he played in Montreal.

Corson played 4 decent seasons with the habs. He even made team Canada in Nagano. He was a tough customer and a great team player.

The problem was that the Molson's were giving us low budget at the time so we were forced to trade away our offensive guys like Recchi. So we were left whitout much offensive talent. Koivu -Savage and Corson were our first line guys and we had guys like Petrov, Rucinsky, Zubrus, Zholtok all them were injury prone.


It's a shame Corson signed with leafs as a UFA cause I think we would not talk about that trade this way.
Yes it wasn't that bad of a trade except they threw in Conroy as well. Those are what I hated about the Houle era, he would throw in our best upcoming farm team players, it didn't take long to destroy any form of depth in the Hab organization. He barely drafted any good players as well, I know Serge Savard was bad with 1st rounders but he was able to produce in later rounds where as Houle drafted Ryder and Markov that is the only two names I can think of maybe Ribeiro is the other

googlymoogly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 09:34 AM
  #10
Not The One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montréal, Qc.
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepe Lemieux View Post
That trade is not that bad

Turgeon was a bit overated. He was still a good offensive player at the time be he only produced 80 pts once after he played in Montreal.

Corson played 4 decent seasons with the habs. He even made team Canada in Nagano. He was a tough customer and a great team player.

The problem was that the Molson's were giving us low budget at the time so we were forced to trade away our offensive guys like Recchi. So we were left whitout much offensive talent. Koivu -Savage and Corson were our first line guys and we had guys like Petrov, Rucinsky, Zubrus, Zholtok all them were injury prone.


It's a shame Corson signed with leafs as a UFA cause I think we would not talk about that trade this way.
That trade was an ABOMINATION. It made me sick at the time and it still does.

Turgeon was a star in St-Louis with 355 points in only 327 games, while Corson was an overrated grinder with 136 points in 242 games. We missed the playoffs during his two last years, and he then bolted for the LEAFS of all teams.

The trade was a byproduct of the thinking at that time that teams can win only with GRIT, CHARACTER , and GOOD CANADIAN BOYS like Corson rather than wimpy frenchmen like Turgeon. Look how that turned out for us, and for the 1998 Olympic team.

IMO this was the trade that directly lead to the dark years. We have never recovered for loosing all that talent and getting nothing in return.


Last edited by Not The One: 12-15-2010 at 09:39 AM.
Not The One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 09:56 AM
  #11
Habbadasher
Registered User
 
Habbadasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: My couch
Country: Germany
Posts: 1,699
vCash: 500
The summary of the situation is a good one, Turgeon was heavily criticized at the time and needed to be sent away, think Brisebois.

Habbadasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 10:04 AM
  #12
smon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,007
vCash: 500
It definitely looks terrible in hindsight, but not as bad as you think. In the years following Turgeon didn't produce huge numbers, nowhere near that Habs year and nowhere near the 100pt years with the Isles. As mentioned, the guy was soft and the fans hated him at the time, despite his points. He was criticized heavily for his style of play and lack of leadership. I'd doubt he would have re-signed with the club anyway, he didn't like his role.

Corson was really the draw for Houle, this guy was a highly prized player for years in the '90's. Everyone always wants power forwards right? When he first left Montreal he got the Canadiens Vincent Damphousse. Corson was overrated, but if we looked at this trade a year later Corson was putting up dynamite numbers with Recchi and Koivu. Turgeon was overrated too, he wasn't the player he was in the early '90's, the Hunter incident really shook him up - there was a reason the Isles traded him for Muller.

Frankly, Corson for Turgeon straight up would not be as bad. What makes this trade especially bad was that Craig Conroy was also sent to StL in the trade.

smon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 10:05 AM
  #13
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,766
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habbadasher View Post
The summary of the situation is a good one, Turgeon was heavily criticized at the time and needed to be sent away, think Brisebois.
I dont think the criticism was THAT bad. Certainly Damphousse and Koivu were looked at more favourably, but it wasn't to the point where Turgeon had to go.

Houle jumped the gun and moved too quickly.

Patty Roy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 10:09 AM
  #14
Patty Roy
Registered User
 
Patty Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,766
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
Corson was really the draw for Houle, this guy was a highly prized player for years in the '90's. Everyone always wants power forwards right? When he first left Montreal he got the Canadiens Vincent Damphousse. Corson was overrated, but if we looked at this trade a year later Corson was putting up dynamite numbers with Recchi and Koivu. Turgeon was overrated too, he wasn't the player he was in the early '90's, the Hunter incident really shook him up - there was a reason the Isles traded him for Muller.

Frankly, Corson for Turgeon straight up would not be as bad. What makes this trade especially bad was that Craig Conroy was also sent to StL in the trade.
I was always a big Corson fan, but he only had the one good season with us...and by good i mean 55 points (21 goals). Turgeon put up a PPG or better for the following 5 seasons after he was dealt. Sure he was a bit on the soft side but look at his career playoff nbrs....97 points in 109 games, not bad.

Patty Roy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 10:15 AM
  #15
smon
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
I was always a big Corson fan, but he only had the one good season with us...and by good i mean 55 points (21 goals). Turgeon put up a PPG or better for the following 5 seasons after he was dealt. Sure he was a bit on the soft side but look at his career playoff nbrs....97 points in 109 games, not bad.
Yeah, I'm not saying it was a good move, but it wasn't the worst trade Houle made (we all know that one!).

Turgeon was a PPG player, no doubt, but he missed considerable amounts of time due to injury almost every year following the trade - he was past his peak. The 55 points you mention by Corson were at almost a point-per-game pace in only 62 games. Corson was nowhere near the player Turgeon was, but he wasn't a fourth liner at that stage, either. That only happened as he got injured more, lost the chance to play with Koivu due to Koivu's injuries, etc..

smon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 10:32 AM
  #16
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 13,430
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
I dont think the criticism was THAT bad. Certainly Damphousse and Koivu were looked at more favourably, but it wasn't to the point where Turgeon had to go.

Houle jumped the gun and moved too quickly.
As per usual...Houle always moved too quickly.......it was a bad trade...as was his Patty Roy trade, but that's a whole different case of beer...

BLONG7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 10:51 AM
  #17
Mad Habber
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,713
vCash: 500
I was fine with trading Turgeon as he was redundant in Montreal at the time. Both Damphousse and Koivu were more complete players and neither shied away from physical contact. I always remember Turgeon playing the Flyers in perfect control of the puck until a Flyer got close and Turgeon was effectively taken off the puck as he wouldn't use his body to protect the puck. He earned that nickname Tin Man and it suited him well.

The problem with the trade was the same as the Roy trade which was the problem with all Houle trades of the time. Give away too much and receive too little. I have no problem trading Roy or Turgeon. You just need to receive fair market value in return. For the Roy trade, there was no need to include Keane. Also how do we not end up with a first liner in that trade rather than second liners.

With the Turgeon trade, Turgeon alone should have been enough for Corson, Baron and a pick. There was no need to add Fitzpatrick (all-star defenseman almost) and our top prospect.

Houle's biggest failings. Not getting fair market value in his trades and depleting any depth the team had without ever being able to replenish it.

Mad Habber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:04 AM
  #18
CanadienErrant*
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Cook Islands
Posts: 4,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
I was fine with trading Turgeon as he was redundant in Montreal at the time. Both Damphousse and Koivu were more complete players and neither shied away from physical contact. I always remember Turgeon playing the Flyers in perfect control of the puck until a Flyer got close and Turgeon was effectively taken off the puck as he wouldn't use his body to protect the puck. He earned that nickname Tin Man and it suited him well.

The problem with the trade was the same as the Roy trade which was the problem with all Houle trades of the time. Give away too much and receive too little. I have no problem trading Roy or Turgeon. You just need to receive fair market value in return. For the Roy trade, there was no need to include Keane. Also how do we not end up with a first liner in that trade rather than second liners.

With the Turgeon trade, Turgeon alone should have been enough for Corson, Baron and a pick. There was no need to add Fitzpatrick (all-star defenseman almost) and our top prospect.

Houle's biggest failings. Not getting fair market value in his trades and depleting any depth the team had without ever being able to replenish it.
You can add Bob Gainey to this....

CanadienErrant* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:05 AM
  #19
Analyzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,747
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not The One View Post
That trade was an ABOMINATION. It made me sick at the time and it still does.

Turgeon was a star in St-Louis with 355 points in only 327 games, while Corson was an overrated grinder with 136 points in 242 games. We missed the playoffs during his two last years, and he then bolted for the LEAFS of all teams.

The trade was a byproduct of the thinking at that time that teams can win only with GRIT, CHARACTER , and GOOD CANADIAN BOYS like Corson rather than wimpy frenchmen like Turgeon. Look how that turned out for us, and for the 1998 Olympic team.

IMO this was the trade that directly lead to the dark years. We have never recovered for loosing all that talent and getting nothing in return.
Pretty sure that was the trading of Roy.

Analyzer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:07 AM
  #20
Jedrik
Registered User
 
Jedrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by schumway2 View Post
In the mid-nineties I wasn't old enough to understand the intricacies of the league and why trades were made.
Neither did Rejean Houle

*Bada-boums*

But seriously, though, he was awful. Consider it a blessing that your age might have prevented you from appreciating how bad we were as an organization. I actually feel really bad for fans who 'grew up' with the mid-90s Habs. I count myself lucky to be old enough to at least have been a lucid fan in the early 90s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
I was always a big Corson fan, but he only had the one good season with us...and by good i mean 55 points (21 goals). Turgeon put up a PPG or better for the following 5 seasons after he was dealt. Sure he was a bit on the soft side but look at his career playoff nbrs....97 points in 109 games, not bad.
I was a huge Corson fan as well. If we could clone him he'd be a guaranteed fan favourite today. But considering where he was in his career and what we were giving up (including all of the Houlean pluses in the deal), we got hosed hard.

On a random note, I actually remember that Turgeon had a four-assist night in his last game before getting dealt.

Jedrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:23 AM
  #21
Not The One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montréal, Qc.
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Pretty sure that was the trading of Roy.
I actually think at started from the Carbonneau trade and snowballed from there, but I think there was still plenty of high-end talent on the team after the Roy trade, and the team actually had a pretty good season.

The Turgeon trade severely depleted the team's pool of talented forwards, and with Koivu's injuries and Damphousse's struggles the team never recovered.

Not The One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:31 AM
  #22
zzoo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 2,393
vCash: 500
I remember why we traded Turgeon.

That year, we Turgeon, Damphousse and Koivu as center. At that time, Damphousse played slightly better than Turgeon. And Koivu was young, but he got better and better. Turgeon, as talented as he was, is our 3rd center. He wasn't happy about that situation. I'm not sure whether he requested a trade. For Habs organization, it was clear that they won't trade the young and potential Koivu. So they decided to trade away Turgeon.

Among all the trades (including Roy trade), I hate this one the most.
I blame Tremblay for this awful trade as he didn't manage the team appropriately. He should play Damphousse as LW, as he used to be (Damphousse played LW before converting into C in Montreal). Then it leaves the center position to Turgeon. Problem solved !

zzoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:41 AM
  #23
tinyzombies
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Calif via Montreal
Posts: 11,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
I remember why we traded Turgeon.

That year, we Turgeon, Damphousse and Koivu as center. At that time, Damphousse played slightly better than Turgeon. And Koivu was young, but he got better and better. Turgeon, as talented as he was, is our 3rd center. He wasn't happy about that situation. I'm not sure whether he requested a trade. For Habs organization, it was clear that they won't trade the young and potential Koivu. So they decided to trade away Turgeon.

Among all the trades (including Roy trade), I hate this one the most.
I blame Tremblay for this awful trade as he didn't manage the team appropriately. He should play Damphousse as LW, as he used to be (Damphousse played LW before converting into C in Montreal). Then it leaves the center position to Turgeon. Problem solved !
Turgeon had been finished for awhile and was playing soft. At the time, having three offensive centers was taboo. Those were the days of a third line checking line and fourth line energy line. To have three scoring lines meant you were not a defensively sound team.

Gainey tried the same thing when he was GM of Dallas, the year after they won the Cup by signing Turgeon. Major disaster again that cost him his job in Dallas.

tinyzombies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:45 AM
  #24
Jedrik
Registered User
 
Jedrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,819
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
I remember why we traded Turgeon.

That year, we Turgeon, Damphousse and Koivu as center. At that time, Damphousse played slightly better than Turgeon. And Koivu was young, but he got better and better. Turgeon, as talented as he was, is our 3rd center. He wasn't happy about that situation. I'm not sure whether he requested a trade. For Habs organization, it was clear that they won't trade the young and potential Koivu. So they decided to trade away Turgeon.

Among all the trades (including Roy trade), I hate this one the most.
I blame Tremblay for this awful trade as he didn't manage the team appropriately. He should play Damphousse as LW, as he used to be (Damphousse played LW before converting into C in Montreal). Then it leaves the center position to Turgeon. Problem solved !
He really didn't seem comfortable as captain, as far as I recall. I think it was a misstep to give him the 'C'. He was a quiet, finesse player. Not a rambunctious war general-type.

Jedrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-15-2010, 11:47 AM
  #25
Not The One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Montréal, Qc.
Posts: 1,483
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
Turgeon had been finished for awhile and was playing soft. At the time, having three offensive centers was taboo. Those were the days of a third line checking line and fourth line energy line. To have three scoring lines meant you were not a defensively sound team.

Gainey tried the same thing when he was GM of Dallas, the year after they won the Cup by signing Turgeon. Major disaster again that cost him his job in Dallas.
Finished? He had 353 points in 327 games in St-Louis, before going for the money in Dallas. He had 96 points the years before!

If that is finished, I guess Corson and Baron were zombies.

Not The One is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:01 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.