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The Spezza, Subban Comparison

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Old
12-16-2010, 06:37 AM
  #1
Stan
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The Spezza, Subban Comparison

I've been thinking about the criticism Martin has taking for being tough on Subban. It reminds me of the situation in Ottawa when Spezza was just entering the league and Martin was trying to make him learn defense and play a complete game. Martin was fired for the teams lack of playoff success and Spezza was allowed to play his game.

I think its important that fans support Subban, but we have to realize that Martin is doing whats best for the team and for Subban. We want him to develop into a complete player that can play in all situations.

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12-16-2010, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan View Post
I've been thinking about the criticism Martin has taking for being tough on Subban. It reminds me of the situation in Ottawa when Spezza was just entering the league and Martin was trying to make him learn defense and play a complete game. Martin was fired for the teams lack of playoff success and Spezza was allowed to play his game.

I think its important that fans support Subban, but we have to realize that Martin is doing whats best for the team and for Subban. We want him to develop into a complete player that can play in all situations.
A lot easier to hide a poor defensive center than a poor defensive d-man.

That being said I don't think Subban has been THAT bad defensively, though Price's heroics this year have hidden a lot of mistakes by PK and Picard at times.

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12-16-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan View Post
I've been thinking about the criticism Martin has taking for being tough on Subban. It reminds me of the situation in Ottawa when Spezza was just entering the league and Martin was trying to make him learn defense and play a complete game. Martin was fired for the teams lack of playoff success and Spezza was allowed to play his game.

I think its important that fans support Subban, but we have to realize that Martin is doing whats best for the team and for Subban. We want him to develop into a complete player that can play in all situations.

Martin don't doubt the offensive talent of Spezza/Subban
But you have to calculate your risks

Look at the Game ATL/OTT last week
ATL was leading 3-1 and then Neil and Spezza(Penalty shot) scored in the 3rd

Spezza was awesome on his goal (generating the penalty shot + goal)

But the play he made in OT that lead to Little's goal was atrocious. for the standing, they got 1 pt. but for efforts, its frustrating for the players to end the game like that. As a coach, im sure he hated the way they lost. If it happens once, its ok. but if you append all errors, it can be very frustrating.

And its not only Subban's fault
Pouliot was also atrocious yesterday excluding his assists on Pleks goal.

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12-16-2010, 08:37 AM
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What have you done for me lately? A neofury story ;)

I think Subban's "bad D" is being blown way out of proportion. Before the benching and mistake that cost us a game against Edmonton everyone was on his dick. So quickly people forget that earlier in the season he was a big reason why many goals against did not occur. He's had stretches of being bad defensively, normal defensively and phenomenal defensively. I've seen some odd man rushes and even breakaways where he's used his speed to get back in the play and effectively stopped a goal from happening. I've seen the exact same scenario where he didn't. He's a rookie and he's making defensive mistakes, does this sound far fetched to people?

Truth is at every stage of the game he's struggled defensively and at every stage of the game he's become good defensively. We need to be patient. Remember Carey Price how a lot of you weren't patient? Remember Benoit Pouliot how a lot of you weren't patient? What about Andrei Kostitsyn? What about basically any young player who panned out who was either bashed unfairly or nearly run out of town?

You guys have such high expectations. He's a rookie and some people around these forums need a reality check. Rookie defenseman are going to make mistakes that are going to cost you games. Even the stay at home D type who are solid in their own end. I know lately there's been a fluctuation of these PK mistakes but it had to come at some point in time.

Let the guy play his game, learn the ropes of playing defensive minded and he'll one day be one of the most important players on our team. Don't be patient and bash the guy and whine whenever he makes a rookie mistake (yes, ROOKIE MISTAKE) then you'll drive him out of town and rightfully so.

It's just a good thing we get players with a solid head on their shoulders or we'd be in real trouble. Seriously though before you criticize the defensive game of a player whose shown flashes of brilliance at both ends of the ice why don't you stop, take a look in the mirror and think for a second about where you were sitting when you were 18-23 years old and think about how hard the pressure really is, not just to perform but to wear the CH and do so with respect. There's a huge reputation to uphold. You're young and expected to do so much, the #1 D is injured, your team has had scoring issues, you're still trying to learn the game and a million people are watching your every move.

Not saying it's an excuse for crybabies like Sergei but really people need to wake up and stop criticizing young players for playing the way young players do. In 2-3 years everyone here is going to be on Subbans dick, he's going to be one of our best players and might even have a season where he is our best player. He has all the tools and even if he never pans out in his own end he's a massive upgrade over MAB defensively and it's obvious his offensive game is going to be incredible once he gains some more confidence and works on his game a bit more.

Really the PK bashing is petty unwarranted and stupid. He's a young player wake up and realize even guys like Tavares and Hall picked 1st overall are making mistakes and learning the game as they go. Do you see them on pace for a 100pt season? Do you see them playing like veterans? Not everyone is Crosby/Ovechkin, it's rare a player comes up produces right away and is sound at both ends of the ice. Expecting PK to be is down right ridiculous. It's like some people around here expect the habs to got 82-0-0, Price 82 shutouts and no rookie ever makes a mistake. This isn't the 95-96 wings and teams that consistent only come around once in a lifetime practically and even then I'm sure their rookies made mistakes they just had solid vets to win them games despite that.

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Old
12-16-2010, 08:58 AM
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Neofury...you nailed it well done

But you shouldn't be surprised...this is Habs fans were talking about, building up players to God-like status and then tearing them up at first sign of trouble seems to be a Habs fan staple.

It's just what 'we' do...

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12-16-2010, 09:49 AM
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This whole PK thing is a joke. PK OWNED Crosby last year in the playoffs. The mistakes now are all about a lack of confidence. Yes, that's due to Martin but that doesn't mean Martin is wrong. He has to reel this kid in and teach him how to be a pro. Every rookie makes rookie mistakes. He's awesome but don't say he's the second coming of Bobby Orr in his first full quarter season. There's ups and downs. People just like talking about anything and everything possible cause they have nothing better to do

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12-16-2010, 10:14 AM
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What I hate the most about Subban is how most fans treat him! It seems that Subban has to somehow be above any critism, and that one or two spin-o-ramas per game gives him the right to commit as many mistakes as he want. I just don't buy that.

Jacques Martin is honest when talking about Subban. He needs to make better decisions, and ne needs to make them faster. This thread compares Subban to Spezza. I want to compare Subban to Price. We all know that Subban has the talent to succeed. Most honest fans knew since day one that Price had the talent to go all the way, althought some Halak fanbois suddenly denied that. Price worked hard, focused and is now using all of his talent. Subban will eventually do the same, but at the moment, he is little more than a great source of untapped potential.

A calmer, more mature Subban will see the game slow down around him. That will allow him to pick his spots better for his rushes and pinches while also being a better passer. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be a good player, but fans that view him as such right now are just fooling themselves.

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12-16-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ketzlaf View Post
What I hate the most about Subban is how most fans treat him! It seems that Subban has to somehow be above any critism, and that one or two spin-o-ramas per game gives him the right to commit as many mistakes as he want. I just don't buy that.

Jacques Martin is honest when talking about Subban. He needs to make better decisions, and ne needs to make them faster. This thread compares Subban to Spezza. I want to compare Subban to Price. We all know that Subban has the talent to succeed. Most honest fans knew since day one that Price had the talent to go all the way, althought some Halak fanbois suddenly denied that. Price worked hard, focused and is now using all of his talent. Subban will eventually do the same, but at the moment, he is little more than a great source of untapped potential.

A calmer, more mature Subban will see the game slow down around him. That will allow him to pick his spots better for his rushes and pinches while also being a better passer. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be a good player, but fans that view him as such right now are just fooling themselves.
That's called 'irrational hate'...makes no sense to dislike Subban because of how OTHERS treat him.

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12-16-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's called 'irrational hate'...makes no sense to dislike Subban because of how OTHERS treat him.
That just lets you know that there isn't much that I hate about Subban

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Old
12-16-2010, 01:22 PM
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Stan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Neofury...you nailed it well done

But you shouldn't be surprised...this is Habs fans were talking about, building up players to God-like status and then tearing them up at first sign of trouble seems to be a Habs fan staple.

It's just what 'we' do...
I don't think anyone is tearing Subban down. I think most on this board realize he has amazing potential...but he's not there yet. Thats expected from a rookie. My point in making this comparison is that Martin is doing the right thing. He's received a lot of criticism and I think its unfounded in this case.

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Old
12-16-2010, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I think Subban's "bad D" is being blown way out of proportion. Before the benching and mistake that cost us a game against Edmonton everyone was on his dick. So quickly people forget that earlier in the season he was a big reason why many goals against did not occur. He's had stretches of being bad defensively, normal defensively and phenomenal defensively. I've seen some odd man rushes and even breakaways where he's used his speed to get back in the play and effectively stopped a goal from happening. I've seen the exact same scenario where he didn't. He's a rookie and he's making defensive mistakes, does this sound far fetched to people?

Truth is at every stage of the game he's struggled defensively and at every stage of the game he's become good defensively. We need to be patient. Remember Carey Price how a lot of you weren't patient? Remember Benoit Pouliot how a lot of you weren't patient? What about Andrei Kostitsyn? What about basically any young player who panned out who was either bashed unfairly or nearly run out of town?

You guys have such high expectations. He's a rookie and some people around these forums need a reality check. Rookie defenseman are going to make mistakes that are going to cost you games. Even the stay at home D type who are solid in their own end. I know lately there's been a fluctuation of these PK mistakes but it had to come at some point in time.

Let the guy play his game, learn the ropes of playing defensive minded and he'll one day be one of the most important players on our team. Don't be patient and bash the guy and whine whenever he makes a rookie mistake (yes, ROOKIE MISTAKE) then you'll drive him out of town and rightfully so.

It's just a good thing we get players with a solid head on their shoulders or we'd be in real trouble. Seriously though before you criticize the defensive game of a player whose shown flashes of brilliance at both ends of the ice why don't you stop, take a look in the mirror and think for a second about where you were sitting when you were 18-23 years old and think about how hard the pressure really is, not just to perform but to wear the CH and do so with respect. There's a huge reputation to uphold. You're young and expected to do so much, the #1 D is injured, your team has had scoring issues, you're still trying to learn the game and a million people are watching your every move.

Not saying it's an excuse for crybabies like Sergei but really people need to wake up and stop criticizing young players for playing the way young players do. In 2-3 years everyone here is going to be on Subbans dick, he's going to be one of our best players and might even have a season where he is our best player. He has all the tools and even if he never pans out in his own end he's a massive upgrade over MAB defensively and it's obvious his offensive game is going to be incredible once he gains some more confidence and works on his game a bit more.

Really the PK bashing is petty unwarranted and stupid. He's a young player wake up and realize even guys like Tavares and Hall picked 1st overall are making mistakes and learning the game as they go. Do you see them on pace for a 100pt season? Do you see them playing like veterans? Not everyone is Crosby/Ovechkin, it's rare a player comes up produces right away and is sound at both ends of the ice. Expecting PK to be is down right ridiculous. It's like some people around here expect the habs to got 82-0-0, Price 82 shutouts and no rookie ever makes a mistake. This isn't the 95-96 wings and teams that consistent only come around once in a lifetime practically and even then I'm sure their rookies made mistakes they just had solid vets to win them games despite that.
Gross exaggeration. Seriously, no one has been hard on Subban. I think the media has been too focused on it, but thats just because there is interest. Anyway, my point is I believe Martin is doing the right thing for his development and taking unfair criticism by fans.

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Old
12-16-2010, 06:47 PM
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I think Martin has done what needs to be done. I love Subban, and the "edge" he plays with. He is a great talent and will continue to develop his skills.
My problem is with the COCKY attitude. It does get under everyones skin and rightfully so! After his goal last night he went straight to the glass to show his fans!...........Not even looking to his team mates. Time for him to realize he should probably start paying attention to his relationship with his team, not his fans.

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Old
12-16-2010, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan View Post
I've been thinking about the criticism Martin has taking for being tough on Subban. It reminds me of the situation in Ottawa when Spezza was just entering the league and Martin was trying to make him learn defense and play a complete game. Martin was fired for the teams lack of playoff success and Spezza was allowed to play his game.

I think its important that fans support Subban, but we have to realize that Martin is doing whats best for the team and for Subban. We want him to develop into a complete player that can play in all situations.
Good point, both Spezza and Subban are highly skilled but the comparisons end there, cause one is a great competitor playing this game with alot of fire while the other isnt particulary knew for his work ethic if you know what I mean...

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12-16-2010, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue View Post
I think Martin has done what needs to be done. I love Subban, and the "edge" he plays with. He is a great talent and will continue to develop his skills.
My problem is with the COCKY attitude. It does get under everyones skin and rightfully so! After his goal last night he went straight to the glass to show his fans!...........Not even looking to his team mates. Time for him to realize he should probably start paying attention to his relationship with his team, not his fans.
You kidding me?

A lot of players turn and celebrate to the fans, or start skating up the ice all alone to celebrate. Pacioretty went to the glass tonight as well, I guess he's cocky as well? Gionta has done it from time to time too, the guy on our team most associated with "team play" and a "class".

Everyone celebrates differently and I don't see that as a problem at all.

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12-16-2010, 08:06 PM
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I realize a lot of players go straight to the glass, and I did see Pacioretti do it tonight and immediately turn to look for his team to celebrate with.
All I am saying is that for a guy who has been labelled as incredibly cocky and having "problems" with some of his team mates ( only rumors, so who knows ), that maybe he should tone it done for a bit

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Old
12-16-2010, 08:55 PM
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Stan
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Good point, both Spezza and Subban are highly skilled but the comparisons end there, cause one is a great competitor playing this game with alot of fire while the other isnt particulary knew for his work ethic if you know what I mean...
Absolutely. You're right. They are very different personalities. I think this is interesting from the Martin perspective. I think he has done a good job

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