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Old
12-24-2010, 05:29 AM
  #26
ricky0034
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Originally Posted by revolverjgw View Post
I know he was good, I'd campaign for his induction to the HOF, but look at the names around him, he's by far the worst player on there and the only guy not named Gretzky or Lemieux to get to 30. That's remarkable.

Also kind of statistically surprising he only scored 46 points during that incredibly long streak, just barely above his season average and well below the pace of everybody else on that list (and Crosby right now). It's just an all-around weird streak, that's all.



Good point. Crosby has put up an insane total over this streak/season yet he's only had one 4 point game all year. Incredible consistency.
kind of makes a 30 game point streak sound a lot less impressive too unfortunately

no offense to him but "something only Gretzky and Lemiux have done!" just plain sounds a lot more impressive than "something only Gretzky,Lemieux,and Sundin have done!"

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12-24-2010, 08:29 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Daryl View Post
I remember a insider saying that approximately 130 points today would be equal to 200 points back then when Gretzky played,if I recall correctly that is.
I'm thinking you heard wrong.
Anyone saying that is an idiot, not an insider heh.

More like the 170+ range and that's being conservative.

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12-24-2010, 11:45 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Daryl View Post
I remember a insider saying that approximately 130 points today would be equal to 200 points back then when Gretzky played,if I recall correctly that is.
An insider? What was he inside?

There's no group you can be part of that would give you inside information on this. It's not a trade rumor, it's a complex and controversial subject.

Anyway, if 130 is 200 then 112 is 172 and Henrik Sedin would be outscoring Mike Bossy, Peter Stastny and Denis Savard by a good 50 points.

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12-24-2010, 11:50 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl View Post
I remember a insider saying that approximately 130 points today would be equal to 200 points back then when Gretzky played,if I recall correctly that is.
Would Mike Bossy, Peter Stastny, Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk suddenly be your average run-of the-mill 80 point players in the New NHL? Because those guys were all basically 120-point players in the 1980s.

Edit: Beaten to it....

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12-24-2010, 12:19 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Would Mike Bossy, Peter Stastny, Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk suddenly be your average run-of the-mill 80 point players in the New NHL? Because those guys were all basically 120-point players in the 1980s.

Edit: Beaten to it....
Who are these run of the mill 80 point players today. There are less than 20 guys every year who score 80 points a year.

There is no exact year to predict how the 4 guys listed above would do in toady's NHL but it's a pretty fair bet that none of them would get 100 points in a year or maybe they all would , in the perfect situation.

The game has changed entirely since the early to mid 80's when Edmonton was trying to outgun every team out there and today were many teams are trying to win 2-1.

The role and impact and play of goalies, not to mention a slight increase in coverage from their pads for safety reasons keeps scoring down by quite a bit in today's NHL.

What Sid is doing is very special and he will be remembered with the big 4 when his career is finally over IMO.

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12-24-2010, 12:31 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Who are these run of the mill 80 point players today. There are less than 20 guys every year who score 80 points a year.

There is no exact year to predict how the 4 guys listed above would do in toady's NHL but it's a pretty fair bet that none of them would get 100 points in a year or maybe they all would , in the perfect situation.

The game has changed entirely since the early to mid 80's when Edmonton was trying to outgun every team out there and today were many teams are trying to win 2-1.

The role and impact and play of goalies, not to mention a slight increase in coverage from their pads for safety reasons keeps scoring down by quite a bit in today's NHL.

What Sid is doing is very special and he will be remembered with the big 4 when his career is finally over IMO.
An 80 point player is a pretty good first liner in the current NHL? You really think those all time greats would be nothing more than typical first liners today? If anything, 80s players ate becoming underrated - at the time, skill and offensive talent was the primary thing that scouts and gms were looking for

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12-24-2010, 01:44 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
An 80 point player is a pretty good first liner in the current NHL? You really think those all time greats would be nothing more than typical first liners today? If anything, 80s players ate becoming underrated - at the time, skill and offensive talent was the primary thing that scouts and gms were looking for
Don't waste your breath Devil, didn't you know, no player back then is as skilled or talented as players today.
Even if they got the same coaching and training, played with 30lbs less of equipment and were using the super sticks of today.

Pure nostalgia on our part
Bossy with one of today's super sticks would score less goals for sure and Mario was all but useless 7 years ago.

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12-24-2010, 03:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
An 80 point player is a pretty good first liner in the current NHL? You really think those all time greats would be nothing more than typical first liners today? If anything, 80s players ate becoming underrated - at the time, skill and offensive talent was the primary thing that scouts and gms were looking for

I agree that some 80's players are underrated, mostly because they played when Gretzky played then later Lemiuex.

Yes skill was at a greater premium as well, because there was less of it and slowly in the 80's and full force in the 90's the skill level of the NHL became higher with the influx of players from Europe and the US college system becoming new pipelines of talent.

It was a different era and much easier to score in and I think that Hawerchuck in particular is vastly underrated, kinda like the Marcel Dionne of the 80's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Don't waste your breath Devil, didn't you know, no player back then is as skilled or talented as players today.
Even if they got the same coaching and training, played with 30lbs less of equipment and were using the super sticks of today.

Pure nostalgia on our part
Bossy with one of today's super sticks would score less goals for sure and Mario was all but useless 7 years ago.
This sure is a surprising post

Someone really needs to make a straw-man icon for you for Christmas

Nothing really needs to be said except I will quote Mark Twain with some words you could live by

"Better to appear as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Cheers and Merry Christmas

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Old
12-24-2010, 04:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

This sure is a surprising post

Someone really needs to make a straw-man icon for you for Christmas

Nothing really needs to be said except I will quote Mark Twain with some words you could live by

"Better to appear as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

Cheers and Merry Christmas
Too bad my "straw-men" are built on example and reality, yours on opinion and theory.
Lemieux and Jagr, just to name two, constantly show your "theories" for the ignorance that they are.

Fools are quick to proclaim themselves wise and others the fool.
The wise are quick to proclaim themselves the fool.

If defending the greats of the game makes me look foolish then I will claim the title of fool gladly.

Merry X-mas to you as well.


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Old
12-24-2010, 06:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Too bad my "straw-men" are built on example and reality, yours on opinion and theory.
Lemieux and Jagr, just to name two, constantly show your "theories" for the ignorance that they are.

Fools are quick to proclaim themselves wise and others the fool.
The wise are quick to proclaim themselves the fool.

If defending the greats of the game makes me look foolish then I will claim the title of fool gladly.

Merry X-mas to you as well.
From your reply I'm thinking that maybe you aren't quite clear with what a straw man argument is here is a simplified version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

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Old
12-24-2010, 09:06 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
From your reply I'm thinking that maybe you aren't quite clear with what a straw man argument is here is a simplified version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

*Sigh*

Oh, I know what it means my friend.

My only question to you is who builds the Straw-man here?
The one who uses actual fact and examples or the one that only uses opinion and theories?
Who truly builds with fallacy and who builds with fact here my friend

Mario wishes you a Merry X-mas.

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Old
12-26-2010, 01:11 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Who are these run of the mill 80 point players today. There are less than 20 guys every year who score 80 points a year.

There is no exact year to predict how the 4 guys listed above would do in toady's NHL but it's a pretty fair bet that none of them would get 100 points in a year or maybe they all would , in the perfect situation.

The game has changed entirely since the early to mid 80's when Edmonton was trying to outgun every team out there and today were many teams are trying to win 2-1.

The role and impact and play of goalies, not to mention a slight increase in coverage from their pads for safety reasons keeps scoring down by quite a bit in today's NHL.

What Sid is doing is very special and he will be remembered with the big 4 when his career is finally over IMO.
What Sid is doing IS special, but it doesn't really compare to Gretzky's 51 game point scoring streak.

As for the whole players of today vs players of the past thing, this has been debated to death. I doubt anyone's opinion will change in the course of this discussion.

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12-26-2010, 11:04 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
What Sid is doing IS special, but it doesn't really compare to Gretzky's 51 game point scoring streak.

As for the whole players of today vs players of the past thing, this has been debated to death. I doubt anyone's opinion will change in the course of this discussion.
Sadly you are probably right as most people just look at the raw numbers of streaks whether it be DiMaggio's or Gretzky's and when players go on smaller streaks today under totally different conditions then the guys with longer streaks are always better ect...

I for one try to distinguish and investigate the difference and although there is no magic formula for doing so the area is worth investigation and discussion despite some, and the number is quite small thank God, closed minds on the subject in the history section.

As a final note while the history section as a whole is quite good there is still a small segment that treats past accomplishments with a non critical eye just like in some other sections where younger posters can only see what is happening today.

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12-26-2010, 11:16 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sadly you are probably right as most people just look at the raw numbers of streaks whether it be DiMaggio's or Gretzky's and when players go on smaller streaks today under totally different conditions then the guys with longer streaks are always better ect...

I for one try to distinguish and investigate the difference and although there is no magic formula for doing so the area is worth investigation and discussion despite some, and the number is quite small thank God, closed minds on the subject in the history section.

As a final note while the history section as a whole is quite good there is still a small segment that treats past accomplishments with a non critical eye just like in some other sections where younger posters can only see what is happening today.
Yeah, fair and unbiased, you're the voice of reason here to set us straight.
Save us oh great one.

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12-26-2010, 11:41 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah, fair and unbiased, you're the voice of reason here to set us straight.
Save us oh great one.
Everyone comes with a bias, point of view and starting point.

Why must yours be so childish?

And once again you set up your straw-man, which I truly think you do not understand.

Nowhere did I mention fairness or being unbiased or being the voice of reason.

Anyone can look at 51 and 23 and see which number is higher , that's easy, to actually think and take into account some kind of context truly seems beyond you but thankfully you are in the minority, at least others are actually open to discussion and informed thought on the matter.

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Old
12-26-2010, 12:15 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Everyone comes with a bias, point of view and starting point.

Why must yours be so childish?

And once again you set up your straw-man, which I truly think you do not understand.

Nowhere did I mention fairness or being unbiased or being the voice of reason.

Anyone can look at 51 and 23 and see which number is higher , that's easy, to actually think and take into account some kind of context truly seems beyond you but thankfully you are in the minority, at least others are actually open to discussion and informed thought on the matter.
Me putting it in context?
You seem to have the impression that I do not think what Sid is doing right now is special, I most certainly do and would love to see how far the kid can take it.

However, at the same time I am not going to sit here and watch you constantly berate anyone that doesn't agree with you that it's on the same level as what Gretzky and Mario did at this point.

Context...lets talk about that for a second.
If it was soooo much easier for someone to have 30+ game point streaks back in the day, then why in the hell was it only done 3 times by 2 different players.
I perfectly understand there being some willingness to argue a 22 game point streak today on par with a 30 game point streak of the past.
At least there's some validity to it even if I don't quite agree completely.
However, arguing 22 is any where on par with 39, 46 or 51 yet, is just freakin silly.

No one is insulting Sid by saying he's not on Wayne and Mario's level, no one is, it's a statement of fact, like saying the sky is blue.

No one is attacking Sid yet all you do is attack Wayne, Mario and anyone else for that matter that played more than 5 years ago.

Everyone agrees that Gretzky and Lemieux would not score as much as they did in the 80s and 90s but then you get your panties in a bunch when we don't think they would be reduced by as much as you do.

You call me fool, you accuse me of building straw-men, you say I'm childish.
Spare me already, how about debating the topics with theories and opinions based on actual facts and examples instead of theory and opinion based on other theories and opinions.


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Old
12-26-2010, 06:34 PM
  #42
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Single-season point streaks of 20+ games since 1990-91
20 Crosby, Sidney, PIT 11/05/2010 12/15/2010 (active)
20 Stastny, Paul, COL 02/03/2007 03/17/2007
22 Heatley, Dany, OTT 10/05/2005 11/29/2005
20 Oates, Adam, BOS 01/07/1997 02/20/1997
21 Oates, Adam, BOS 03/04/1993 04/14/1993
30 Sundin, Mats, QUE 10/08/1992 12/10/1992
25 Hull, Brett, STL 11/28/1991 01/23/1992
25 Gretzky, Wayne, LAK 02/08/1991 03/28/1991

As was posted before and like it was noted no one has had a 30 game streak since 92.

The original list also had most of it from the high scoring 80's, Yes 2 of the greatest scorers who ever lived are on that list but there are others as well which indicates that is was easier back then, how much easier is ahrd to say overall but as time goes on the the number of 10, 15 , 20 and 30 points streaks are calculated we will see an aberration in the high scoring 80's.

Just compare the numbers of shutouts in the league on a team basis and you will see how hard 20 games is today compared to 30-50 back in the 80's which are great achievements by the way.

I guess it will be a judgment call to see how to compare them to whatever number Sid ends up with (and IMO it will be less than 30).

Maybe Mantor can come up with one of his great lists?

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Old
12-26-2010, 06:39 PM
  #43
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Single-season point streaks of 20+ games since 1990-91
20 Crosby, Sidney, PIT 11/05/2010 12/15/2010 (active)
20 Stastny, Paul, COL 02/03/2007 03/17/2007
22 Heatley, Dany, OTT 10/05/2005 11/29/2005
20 Oates, Adam, BOS 01/07/1997 02/20/1997
21 Oates, Adam, BOS 03/04/1993 04/14/1993
30 Sundin, Mats, QUE 10/08/1992 12/10/1992
25 Hull, Brett, STL 11/28/1991 01/23/1992
25 Gretzky, Wayne, LAK 02/08/1991 03/28/1991

As was posted before and like it was noted no one has had a 30 game streak since 92.

The original list also had most of it from the high scoring 80's, Yes 2 of the greatest scorers who ever lived are on that list but there are others as well which indicates that is was easier back then, how much easier is ahrd to say overall but as time goes on the the number of 10, 15 , 20 and 30 points streaks are calculated we will see an aberration in the high scoring 80's.

Just compare the numbers of shutouts in the league on a team basis and you will see how hard 20 games is today compared to 30-50 back in the 80's which are great achievements by the way.

I guess it will be a judgment call to see how to compare them to whatever number Sid ends up with (and IMO it will be less than 30).

Maybe Mantor can come up with one of his great lists?
Why just show 20+ game point streaks since 90/91 though?
Why not include them all since 79/80 so we can also see how hard it was when Lemieux and Gretzky did it.
I mean hell, you keep saying how much easier it was then, why don't we see how much easier it actually was shall we.

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12-26-2010, 09:07 PM
  #44
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I don't have a definitive list, I was asking the question more than providing an answer but in the 2 lists provided there is a definitive time line and with the increased number of shutouts and decreased scoring overall, since the high peak of the 80's it is easy to see why this has happened (more players from the 80's and only 1 player with more than 30 points since 92).

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12-26-2010, 10:30 PM
  #45
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I don't have a definitive list, I was asking the question more than providing an answer but in the 2 lists provided there is a definitive time line and with the increased number of shutouts and decreased scoring overall, since the high peak of the 80's it is easy to see why this has happened (more players from the 80's and only 1 player with more than 30 points since 92).

You keep repeating that there has only been one 30 game point streak since '92.
You also keep saying "more players" had that much in the 80's but seemingly forget to mention that there was a total of 4 30 game points streaks and by a total of just 2 players.
Those players of course being Gretzky with 3 and Lemieux with 1.

It's pretty ignorant imo to conclude it was that much easier in the 80's to accomplish it when no one else other than the 2 greatest offensive players in history actually did do it.

Sounds to me like it had a lot more to do with a prime #99 and #66 themselves rather than any other factor especially considering that Lafleur held the previous record of 28 before it was absolutely shattered by Gretzky and Lemieux with 39, 51 and 46 respectively.

A little easier would be much more appropriate but that still doesn't come remotely close to explaining how they managed to produce 39, 46 and 51 game streaks when no one else under the exact conditions could even manage more than 28.

There really is no other explanation other than simply chalking it up to the greatness of Wayne and Mario.
Sorry but that's how it is and there is no argument worth a crap that can say otherwise, truly, there isn't.

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12-26-2010, 10:44 PM
  #46
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Yeah, can we please see a list of all time point streaks? Everyone and their dog knows the top point streaks since 1990-91, but I'd be interested in seeing how Sid's streak compares to all the streaks in hockey history.

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12-26-2010, 10:47 PM
  #47
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You keep repeating that there has only been one 30 game point streak since '92.
You also keep saying "more players" had that much in the 80's but seemingly forget to mention that there was a total of 4 30 game points streaks and by a total of just 2 players.
Those players of course being Gretzky with 3 and Lemieux with 1.

It's pretty ignorant imo to conclude it was that much easier in the 80's to accomplish it when no one else other than the 2 greatest offensive players in history actually did do it.

Sounds to me like it had a lot more to do with a prime #99 and #66 themselves rather than any other factor especially considering that Lafleur held the previous record of 28 before it was absolutely shattered by Gretzky and Lemieux with 39, 51 and 46 respectively.

A little easier would be much more appropriate but that still doesn't come remotely close to explaining how they managed to produce 39, 46 and 51 game streaks when no one else under the exact conditions could even manage more than 28.

There really is no other explanation other than simply chalking it up to the greatness of Wayne and Mario.
Sorry but that's how it is and there is no argument worth a crap that can say otherwise, truly, there isn't.
no other explanation other than Wayne and Mario being great (and for the record once again they are the 2 most offensively gifted players I have ever seen).

I would say from looking at the original list that the scoring in the 80's had something to do with the length of their streaks or maybe Wayne and Mario had something to do with Sundin's or Yzermans's streaks as well

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12-26-2010, 11:39 PM
  #48
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If goals are more frequent across the board, of course it is easier to post a longer points streak. Rhiessan, are you saying this is not true?

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12-26-2010, 11:44 PM
  #49
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Yeah, can we please see a list of all time point streaks? .
I'd like to see this, as well. Calling pnep!

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12-27-2010, 10:09 AM
  #50
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If goals are more frequent across the board, of course it is easier to post a longer points streak. Rhiessan, are you saying this is not true?
Naw man, I already said as much.
I'm simply arguing about exactly how much easier it was.
I have no issue with someone using such a hypothesis on the 28 game streaks by Coffey and Yzerman during this time but those are a far cry from the 39, 46 and 51 game streaks of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Any way you cut it, there is nothing "easy" about those kind of streaks what so ever.

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