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Old
12-27-2010, 10:12 AM
  #51
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You too often confuse easier with easy. Pay attention.

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12-27-2010, 10:27 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
You too often confuse easier with easy. Pay attention.
I think not, considering this was all started when Sid's (at the time) streak was only at 23 and was said as being comparable to Gretzky's 51 game streak.

I'm not the one confused or not paying attention here me thinks.

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Old
12-27-2010, 11:06 AM
  #53
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Scoring was easier in the 80's and therefore streaks were easier.

Gretzky and Lemieux would not get the points they did in today's NHL. Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin are just as talented, if not more so, than Gretzky and Lemieux were.

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12-27-2010, 11:23 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Naw man, I already said as much.
I'm simply arguing about exactly how much easier it was.
I have no issue with someone using such a hypothesis on the 28 game streaks by Coffey and Yzerman during this time but those are a far cry from the 39, 46 and 51 game streaks of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Any way you cut it, there is nothing "easy" about those kind of streaks what so ever.
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I think not, considering this was all started when Sid's (at the time) streak was only at 23 and was said as being comparable to Gretzky's 51 game streak.

I'm not the one confused or not paying attention here me thinks.
No one said there was anything easy about it that's the point. You go on and complain about things people don't even say.

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12-27-2010, 11:24 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Scoring was easier in the 80's and therefore streaks were easier.

Gretzky and Lemieux would not get the points they did in today's NHL. Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin are just as talented, if not more so, than Gretzky and Lemieux were.
As possible as that may be, people here will think you're retarded if you even think it's possible let alone actually think it.

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12-27-2010, 11:35 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Lord brought up a great point in that Sundin is the only guy past 90 on this list, tells us something about how the game has changed.

I have heard more than a couple of hockey experts say that Crosby's streak this season so far rivals Wayne's at 51 in terms of difficulty in that there are no more easy games anymore and scoring is at a much higher premium.

23 games and counting, a season for the ages from the Kid.
It IS a great streak at 24 games now and counting. Lets not get crazy either that it was EVER easy to attain this type of streak. Sid is entering very difficult waters right now. As you can see, the high scoring streaks are spread out over the course of NHL history. It was never easy. Never. Can we now stop pretending the NHL started in 2010 and admit that people did try back in the day as well?

Sid now has a point streak (24) that is bettered by:
Gretzky - 51 in 1983-'84
Lemieux - 46 in 1989-'90
Gretzky - 39 in 1985-'86
Sundin - 30 in 1992-'93
Gretzky - 30 in 1982-'83
Lafleur - 28 in 1976-'77
Gretzky - 28 in 1984-'85
Yzerman - 28 in 1988-'89
Coffey - 28 in 1985-'86
Lemieux - 28 in 1985-'86
Hull - 25 in 1990-'91
Gretzky - 25 in 1990-'91

Do you see the common denominator there? Take away the two most offensive players in NHL history (#99 and #66) and there are a mere 4 players who have a higher point streak than Sid all-time (I took Coffey out because I have a feeling without Gretzky he wouldn't have hit 28 games, with all due respect). That means no one - no one - in the 1980s up until Yzerman in 1988-'89 has a streak that beats Crosby. Does that not paint a better picture for you? Do you not think the two greatest offensive players of all time would be the likely leaders in these records and not because scoring was so easy?

Take away Gretzky and Lemieux and all of the sudden Paul Stastny, Adam Oates and Heatley's point streaks are similar to the apparently easy scoring 1980s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalie Guru View Post
Scoring was easier in the 80's and therefore streaks were easier.

Gretzky and Lemieux would not get the points they did in today's NHL. Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin are just as talented, if not more so, than Gretzky and Lemieux were.
No they aren't. Lemieux is the most talented player in NHL history. Past or present and maybe even in my lifetime. This is no disrespect to Crosby or Ov or Stamkos either. This is paying homage to Mario. Gretzky was talented not as much physically but mentally. In NHL history no one can touch him in that department in my mind. We are witnessing some great talents in the NHL right now, but they are not the best we've seen, not quite.

By the way, with all this talk about how apparently easy it was for a poitn scoring streak in the 1980s I want to ask some people about the streaks of guys like Kurri, Bossy, Trottier, Savard etc. I don't have the stats, but neither of them ranked as high as 20 in streaks. So to the critics of every other generation but 2010, here is my question. Did those players suck, or was it really harder to do than you think?

Before you answer that here's another stat. Wayne Gretzky, yes him, needed an empty net goal with 10 seconds left in Chicago in the middle of his 51 game point streak. It wasn't "easy" for the Great One either.

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Old
12-27-2010, 11:36 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Naw man, I already said as much.
I'm simply arguing about exactly how much easier it was.
I have no issue with someone using such a hypothesis on the 28 game streaks by Coffey and Yzerman during this time but those are a far cry from the 39, 46 and 51 game streaks of Gretzky and Lemieux.

Any way you cut it, there is nothing "easy" about those kind of streaks what so ever.
nope, for sure they're not ever easy. But if scoring's higher they are easier. Goals are generally scored at a poisson distribution so someone with understanding of the formula could easily show how a higher scoring player (which you are more likely to be if you're in a higher scoring era) would have a certain percentage easier time having the same length point streak in a higher scoring environment.

The Mario/Wayne point just illustrates how special they were, but looking at 30+ game streaks is breaking it down to ridiculously small sample sizes so it proves nothing. If you counted the 15+ game streaks, and then the 12+ game streaks, and then 10+, and so on, you'd see big differences on a per-player basis (maybe there was the same amount league wide but there are 30 teams now as opposed to 21)

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Old
12-27-2010, 02:57 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
nope, for sure they're not ever easy. But if scoring's higher they are easier. Goals are generally scored at a poisson distribution so someone with understanding of the formula could easily show how a higher scoring player (which you are more likely to be if you're in a higher scoring era) would have a certain percentage easier time having the same length point streak in a higher scoring environment.

The Mario/Wayne point just illustrates how special they were, but looking at 30+ game streaks is breaking it down to ridiculously small sample sizes so it proves nothing. If you counted the 15+ game streaks, and then the 12+ game streaks, and then 10+, and so on, you'd see big differences on a per-player basis (maybe there was the same amount league wide but there are 30 teams now as opposed to 21)
Good point and rather refreshing considering what was previously going on in this thread.

I agree, I would love to see all streaks of 10 or more games and see how they lay out. I still don't think the difference between the era's is going to be much though but we'll see for sure.
Sounds like a lot of work though and not really up my alley compared to others like Overpass ect who do this stuff in their sleep

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12-27-2010, 03:05 PM
  #59
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There's got to be some mathematical formula that can take how easy it is to get points and convert that to how easy it is to have a scoring streak, but I can't think of what it would be. It wouldn't just be proportionate. If it's twice as easy to get points in that era, it wouldn't quite be twice as easy to get a scoring streak I imagine, it would be a little less.

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12-27-2010, 03:12 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I have heard more than a couple of hockey experts say that Crosby's streak this season so far rivals Wayne's at 51 in terms of difficulty in that there are no more easy games anymore and scoring is at a much higher premium.

23 games and counting, a season for the ages from the Kid.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Corey Perry had 19 game scoring streak last season. Enough said.

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12-27-2010, 03:47 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I agree, I would love to see all streaks of 10 or more games and see how they lay out. I still don't think the difference between the era's is going to be much though but we'll see for sure.
without having done the work myself, my hypothesis is that it would be proportional to league scoring levels (on some sort of curve, most likely)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
There's got to be some mathematical formula that can take how easy it is to get points and convert that to how easy it is to have a scoring streak, but I can't think of what it would be. It wouldn't just be proportionate. If it's twice as easy to get points in that era, it wouldn't quite be twice as easy to get a scoring streak I imagine, it would be a little less.
it's probably some manipulation of the poisson formula.

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12-27-2010, 03:47 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Lord brought up a great point in that Sundin is the only guy past 90 on this list, tells us something about how the game has changed.

I have heard more than a couple of hockey experts say that Crosby's streak this season so far rivals Wayne's at 51 in terms of difficulty in that there are no more easy games anymore and scoring is at a much higher premium.

23 games and counting, a season for the ages from the Kid.
I'd like to know who these "hockey experts" are because frankly that's incredibly ignorant.

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12-27-2010, 04:09 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
There's got to be some mathematical formula that can take how easy it is to get points and convert that to how easy it is to have a scoring streak, but I can't think of what it would be. It wouldn't just be proportionate. If it's twice as easy to get points in that era, it wouldn't quite be twice as easy to get a scoring streak I imagine, it would be a little less.
It's a bit tricky (it requires using two different probability distributions) but it can be done. Is there something specific you wanted to see a calculation for?

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12-27-2010, 04:41 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
It's a bit tricky (it requires using two different probability distributions) but it can be done. Is there something specific you wanted to see a calculation for?

Doesn't have to be over complicated.
Just providing a complete list of all point streaks past either 10 or 15 games since say '75, accompanied by the year they were done in should be more than enough.

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12-28-2010, 07:44 PM
  #65
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anyone know what Teemu's longest point strreak was? im assuming from 92/93, but those 54 assists aren't helping him.

his lasy year in winnipeg, and his first stint at the end of 95/96 in Anaheim. he had 68 assists, so very well could have had a longer streak that year... or 96/97 or 98/99.

don't know how to use those stat sites well enough.

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12-28-2010, 08:23 PM
  #66
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I'd like to know who these "hockey experts" are because frankly that's incredibly ignorant.
yeah really, more like comparable to sundin's streak, or something around 35.

51 game streak comparable to 25 and counting. do your math again, and find real "experts"

he's scored a crap ton of goals, but its not a 20 game goal streak or anything. The key to getting good streaks is assists. Crosby has always been an assists machine, but the fact that he's scoring so many goals is making such a streak so awesome.

if he get's to 45, you can start comparing it to Wayne's streak. but a 51 game streak that includes 92 assists, unless crosby makes it to 50 games, realize it is not yet comparable at all.

all this talk is just setting up for the end of the streak at the winter classic. i really hope he beats the record, and i bet Wayne even does too.


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12-28-2010, 10:24 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Infinite Vision View Post
As possible as that may be, people here will think you're retarded if you even think it's possible let alone actually think it.
OMG. Young punks who haven't got a clue. there is a reason 99/66 put up the numbers they did, it is because they were several levels above the rest. and if you had seen them, it wasn't their stats that proved it, it was your eyes.

I haven't seen anything from the current crop of stars that distinguished them from any other era. Cros, OV and Stamkos are Lafleur, Dion and Perrault, or Jagr, Forsberg and Bure.

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12-28-2010, 10:56 PM
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OMG. Young punks who haven't got a clue. there is a reason 99/66 put up the numbers they did, it is because they were several levels above the rest. and if you had seen them, it wasn't their stats that proved it, it was your eyes.

I haven't seen anything from the current crop of stars that distinguished them from any other era. Cros, OV and Stamkos are Lafleur, Dion and Perrault, or Jagr, Forsberg and Bure.
I've tried saying that. People hear what they want to hear. In this age of an ADD society people don't like facts getting in the way of a good story.

I will say this. I have never seen Crosby play better. And right now I would say he has played better than anything I have ever seen Jagr do. He's on pace for a 70 goal 140 point year. If he keeps this up all year he will have beaten the best year of Jagr's career (1999 IMO). That would also smash anything Forsberg or Bure or Stamkos, Ovechkin, Dionne and Perreault have done. I also believe Crosby will have surpassed Lafleur at his best (it's close with him, Jags and Guy though). I will stop short at saying he is at the Gretzky/Lemieux level. That is a couple notches higher. We'll wait and see. But he has a lot of hockey ahead of him.

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12-28-2010, 11:32 PM
  #69
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Crosby = ****ing god

I just wanted to let all of you know that.

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12-28-2010, 11:46 PM
  #70
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'And right now I would say he has played better than anything I have ever seen Jagr do. He's on pace for a 70 goal 140 point year. If he keeps this up all year he will have beaten the best year of Jagr's career (1999 IMO). That would also smash anything Forsberg or Bure or Stamkos, Ovechkin, Dionne and Perreault have done'

true. but since we like to discredit anything from the 80s, JJ, Fors, and Bure played in the stingiest era for offense. Lafleur, Perrault and Dion played in the dirtiest era without 65 minute games. How many o/t points will these guys get over 1000 games? 50? 100?

Cros is 'on pace' for 70 and 140. when he does, it will be impressive. but, let's not forget, that is post-lockout, which is like 60 and 120 in 1999.

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12-28-2010, 11:49 PM
  #71
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Cros is 'on pace' for 70 and 140. when he does, it will be impressive. but, let's not forget, that is post-lockout, which is like 60 and 120 in 1999.
Scoring's not all that dramatically different in 2010 as opposed to 1999.

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12-28-2010, 11:57 PM
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Remember, Crosby is have a great season... A, being the opperative word.

Just 6 months ago some guy named Sedin was choosen as the Most Valuable Player in the NHL.

When Crosby does what he is doing right now, 6 TIMES IN A ROW, come talk to me.

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Old
12-29-2010, 12:03 AM
  #73
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Remember, Crosby is have a great season... A, being the opperative word.

Just 6 months ago some guy named Sedin was choosen as the Most Valuable Player in the NHL.

When Crosby does what he is doing right now, 6 TIMES IN A ROW, come talk to me.
- No one came and spoke to you in the first place. You entered a pre-existing thread on a forum.
- Why? Do you only want to hear about players who are the greatest of all time?
- Why would you say something like that? No one compared Crosby to any all-time greats. Who are you arguing with?

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12-29-2010, 12:11 AM
  #74
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hey, don't get me wrong. I'm no Crosby/OV hater. they are great players and, if they last, they will be top 20 all time, maybe better (if they prove it).

but, let's just hold off on the 99/66 comparisons. they will need to be clearly better than the rest, FOR A DECADE (and in the first 5 years OV has had one 65 goal season, and Crosby is now having a great season, so 1/2 of the first decade is already used up and neither have been dominate in totality), as well acheive some absolutely mindblowing accomplishments before you get to that level.

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12-29-2010, 12:12 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Cognition View Post
- No one came and spoke to you in the first place. You entered a pre-existing thread on a forum.
- Why? Do you only want to hear about players who are the greatest of all time?
- Why would you say something like that? No one compared Crosby to any all-time greats. Who are you arguing with?
hmm. fair enough

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