SH goals don't impact a player's +/- , just as PP goals don't.
Yes they do. Shorthanded goals, both for and against, count. Powerplay goals, both for and against, don't.
That is, shorthanded goals as in when the other team is shorthanded count against you. And shorthanded goals as in when you're shorthanded count for you.
Scoring on the PP and being scored against on the PK don't count because those are supposed to happen.
After reviewing the article (hate to admit, try to avoid hockeybuzz), Garner provides a solid analysis of Couture- nothing particularly groundbreaking but nothing to be debated either.
His analysis of Marleau however, is as always, off the mark. "He'll be lucky to hit twenty goals". Yes, the player who leads our forwards in ice time, plays on the first PP, and has averaged over 40 goals the past two years, is going to fail to get 9 more, in 50 games. Exaggeration will always have a place in writing, but that is absurd. I bet Marleau will have 20 goals by mid February.
Furthermore, he completely fails to discuss the reasons of why such a trade falls under the category of "extremely unlikely." First, Marleau was tremendous against Chicago and authored the type of performance that is rarely seen. He was in on every goal but one. Had his teammates had a pulse in the series we could have had a chance against a superior team. It isn't fair to criticize the entire team, given that Marleau's performance against Colorado was abysmal, however, it must be pointed that every player (yes Crosby, Zetterberg, Briere) go cold in the playoffs at some point.
However, their are two other factors that are even more important. First he just re-signed with San Jose, a team that he loves for four more years. It isn't often that Wilson has traded players quickly into their deals. However, when he has done it the player hasn't had a NTC, and certainly not a NMC. Does he really think that A) Marleau would waive B) Wilson has the balls to ask him to waive, potentially alienating a star player causing him to sulk in a way similar to the 06-07 season and C) of all the teams he'd waive for Toronto is the one you'd point to? The team with Ron Wilson. The team with the craziest hockey media in the world? The team with the most brutal fans in the world? Does he not recognize the concept of selling high versus selling low. Marleau is a streaky player, he will bounce back.
I am not denying Marleau has been bad, he has been quite awful. However, this article is simply absurd.
After reviewing the article (hate to admit, try to avoid hockeybuzz), Garner provides a solid analysis of Couture- nothing particularly groundbreaking but nothing to be debated either.
His analysis of Marleau however, is as always, off the mark. "He'll be lucky to hit twenty goals". Yes, the player who leads our forwards in ice time, plays on the first PP, and has averaged over 40 goals the past two years, is going to fail to get 9 more, in 50 games. Exaggeration will always have a place in writing, but that is absurd. I bet Marleau will have 20 goals by mid February.
Furthermore, he completely fails to discuss the reasons of why such a trade falls under the category of "extremely unlikely." First, Marleau was tremendous against Chicago and authored the type of performance that is rarely seen. He was in on every goal but one. Had his teammates had a pulse in the series we could have had a chance against a superior team. It isn't fair to criticize the entire team, given that Marleau's performance against Colorado was abysmal, however, it must be pointed that every player (yes Crosby, Zetterberg, Briere) go cold in the playoffs at some point.
However, their are two other factors that are even more important. First he just re-signed with San Jose, a team that he loves for four more years. It isn't often that Wilson has traded players quickly into their deals. However, when he has done it the player hasn't had a NTC, and certainly not a NMC. Does he really think that A) Marleau would waive B) Wilson has the balls to ask him to waive, potentially alienating a star player causing him to sulk in a way similar to the 06-07 season and C) of all the teams he'd waive for Toronto is the one you'd point to? The team with Ron Wilson. The team with the craziest hockey media in the world? The team with the most brutal fans in the world? Does he not recognize the concept of selling high versus selling low. Marleau is a streaky player, he will bounce back.
I am not denying Marleau has been bad, he has been quite awful. However, this article is simply absurd.
Well said. I don't read that site (I avoid it at all costs), so I had no idea what was going on.
I don't like Eklund, but I do enjoy reading some of the writers on hockeybuzz, primarily why I go there.
That said Garner writes terrible articles. Pure uncencored non-stop negativity from the guy. If Garner was always right, this team would have been demoted to the AHL by now.
I've actually been entertaining the idea of emailing Eklund and asking him to find a new Sharks writer. Someone who actually LIKES the Sharks maybe?
SHGF and SHGA do count on +/-. PPGF and PPGA do not count.
I was incorrect (or, rather, incomplete). This poster did say it correctly (and I assume that this is what you meant too).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognition
Yes they do. Shorthanded goals, both for and against, count. Powerplay goals, both for and against, don't.
That is, shorthanded goals as in when the other team is shorthanded count against you. And shorthanded goals as in when you're shorthanded count for you.
Scoring on the PP and being scored against on the PK don't count because those are supposed to happen.
If the Sharks are going to deal Marleau just because of this slump (i.e., trade anyone who in the short-term has been slumping), they might as well do the following as well:
1.) Healthy scratch Seto except for games AT Dallas;
and
2.) Put a gun to Vlasic's head and force him to retire.
Does SJEasy write articles re: Sharks for a blog? That's who I want to read for Sharks analysis.
__________________
2011: Outcoached by Vigneault. 2012: Outcoached all season and postseason by Hitch.
2013: Outcoached by most coaches in the NHL. Who's left? 12 year olds on Xbox Live? SACK T-MAC NOW
If the Sharks are going to deal Marleau just because of this slump (i.e., trade anyone who in the short-term has been slumping), they might as well do the following as well:
1.) Healthy scratch Seto except for games AT Dallas;
and
2.) Put a gun to Vlasic's head and force him to retire.
Does SJEasy write articles re: Sharks for a blog? That's who I want to read for Sharks analysis.
Better yet, Have SJEasy start his own blog and write his thoughts! I'd pay to read that!
Toronto has nothing for Marleau trust me. I live in T.O i see every leafs and sharks game and there is NOTHING from the leafs outside of Kaberle that would help the sharks. theres no ****ing way Marleau goes for Kaberle.
Beauchemin = garbage
gunnarsson = garbage
Komisarek = garbage
Lebda = Garbage
Schenn = won't be traded (i like Schenn but hes not that good, right now i rate him as a #4 or #5 defenceman)
If this even had any merit to it, Kulemin + Kaberle would be a starting point at the very least. Kulemin is literally the only player on the leafs that i enjoy watching besides Gustavsson, and he is really starting to become a better player, should hit 20-25+ goals easily this year and he is great on the boards.
Problem here is we need defence, and Toronto has none, Kaberle is mediocre defensively. The only way i move Marleau is for Burns and he isn't in Toronto.
Of course you wouldn't. Your team is rebuilding and with the possible exception of Kessel, those are the two most important players to accomplishing a successful rebuild. Meanwhile, San Jose wouldn't either. The sharks are in a position to compete (or perhaps more correctly, try to compete) for a cup, and trading a player who scored 44 goals, PPG, and is our best or second best defensive forward makes no sense in attempting to accomplish those goals, because such a trade makes the team worse.
Also, I agree with replacing Garner with Easy, Wineshark, USF Shark, Max, several others. The three of them are every bit as knowledgable as any blogger (though some are much better connected). Maybe we could have KBD provide (overly ) detailed cap information and a sidebar including lady stanley's most recent links. Perhaps the occasional guest article from Patty Ice?
I have the same sentimental attachment to the player we drafted 13 years ago and was there for us when Nolan left as any of you, but I would not be opposed to trading him for a worthy defenseman, to be honest. My biggest problem with that is that our forwards corps already lacks speed as it is.
I'd take neither. Kaberle is gone after this year if he's dealt to the Sharks. Kadri is overrated and nothing special. Same goes for Schenn. He'll be a right-handed Vlasic with a little more physicality.
I'd take neither. Kaberle is gone after this year if he's dealt to the Sharks. Kadri is overrated and nothing special. Same goes for Schenn. He'll be a right-handed Vlasic with a little more physicality.
I bet Kaberle would stay if we won the cup.
Kadri is overrated by Leafs fans but every prospect is overrated by their own fan base, he's still a blue chip prospect.
Schenn is pretty good and will get better. A good young defenseman is exactly what we need.
If the Sharks are going to deal Marleau just because of this slump (i.e., trade anyone who in the short-term has been slumping), they might as well do the following as well:
1.) Healthy scratch Seto except for games AT Dallas;
and
2.) Put a gun to Vlasic's head and force him to retire.
Does SJEasy write articles re: Sharks for a blog? That's who I want to read for Sharks analysis.
Sjeasy and wineshark I think would be excellent writers.
Most of us have player fatigue over our former captains on-again off-again play. Its great fodder for debate. I've heard all the excuses ... he's young, Sutter was too tough on him, Ron Wilson doesn't know how to develop players, his confidence has been shattered, he needs better players around him, he's hurt .... blah blah blah. The stories and excuses have been there for his entire career.
When will we evaluate Patty fairly? What we have is a well-liked player who can at times be one of the better players in the game, and at other times when he stops putting out effort, isn't worthy of the 3rd line on his own team.
Why bring this up? Today IMO there is a logjam for players who aren't worthy of the 3rd line (bottom pair). Its not just Patty who is a high paid languishing player. Add Jumbo early and Boyle and Heater to the equation as well now, and even Pavelski. Its not just Marleau. Its the team that isn't responding. While Patty is the poster child for the teams failings once again, if he started playing like he can, its still not going to fix this team.
If Marleau was playing well and this team is still not headed for a Cup, then trading Marleau from this inconsistent team is not going to bring us a Cup either. If this were Patty's great "Season of Despair" when most around him were putting out and he wasn't, OK. Move him. But with this team, getting the players we have playing the way they can, and then adding a defenseman is the way we will get the best chance.
So if I am GM, trading Marleau is not very high on my list this year, unless I get a stupid return back from an ignorant GM. Brian Burke isn't ignorant and Cory Perry isn't a GM. So Marleau is staying a Shark (E1).
Last edited by WineShark: 12-18-2010 at 12:25 AM.
Reason: redundant
Aside from the Marleau talk, I do agree Couture needs to be given a bigger role, give him some time with the top PP, hell see what he can do playing with Thornton. With the way he is going, he is definitely being underplayed.
