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Old
12-19-2010, 03:00 PM
  #26
bigwillie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
The other assets, if you want to marginalize it, that's fine. However, guys like Suter from teams like Nashville, when they get traded, they get traded for those packages. Plain and simple. You don't EVER get the other team's best young assets...ever.
Which is why guys like Suter rarely ever get traded unless there's some sort of circumstance that absolutely necessitates a trade. Franchise defenseman just don't get traded for a handful of quality assets unless something forces the organization's hand.

And even then, if something forces Nashville to look to trade Suter, teams will be lining up for a shot at acquiring him, and I guarantee you that someone will make a better offer. Or an offer more suited to Nashville's needs, which this one doesn't cater to particularly well.

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Old
12-19-2010, 03:34 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by bigwillie View Post
Which is why guys like Suter rarely ever get traded unless there's some sort of circumstance that absolutely necessitates a trade. Franchise defenseman just don't get traded for a handful of quality assets unless something forces the organization's hand.

And even then, if something forces Nashville to look to trade Suter, teams will be lining up for a shot at acquiring him, and I guarantee you that someone will make a better offer. Or an offer more suited to Nashville's needs, which this one doesn't cater to particularly well.
Of course guys like Suter rarely get traded. And yes teams will be lining up for a shot but I disagree that the Sharks couldn't offer a package that would be exactly what Nashville would want if they put Suter on the table. The biggest reason why the Sharks wouldn't land Suter in such a scenario is because the Preds would probably take less to send him East than take the best value and keep him in the same conference.

But these proposals that marginalize Pavelski's value and asking for Logan Couture is simply ludicrous. There is no precedent at all that would warrant a rational mind into thinking that Suter would return a package including Couture. Pavelski would definitely be on the table under most circumstances but I really doubt that the Preds would want to trade Suter in conference and take on a larger amount of salary in doing so.

I'd think the deal would be around Setoguchi and either Demers, Braun, or Vlasic, plus a 1st than Pavs or Couture.

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:05 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flutie Flakes View Post
Change Doherty, Joslin, and MacIntyre out and replace with Couture and the value would be closer...

TO SJ

Suter OR Weber
Ellis

TO NSH

Pavelski
Couture
1st
Honestly right now if somebody offered me Suter straight up for Couture, i'd heavily think about it. Couture has 17 goals and is leading the Sharks. He is tied with Rick Nash at 5th in the NHL behind only the likes of Crosby, Semin, Stamkos and Sharp. He is still 21 and can only get better. He only has 7 assists, but over time I am sure that number will raise. My eyebrows definaltley already have, this guys the future Superstar on this team. Not only that, moving him wouldn't allow us to bring in a defensman that has alot of cap hit because his contract is only 1.2 million (w/o bonuses which he is earning). Right now Clowe and Couture are the Sharks two best forwards, and they feed off eachother really well. A duo that I do not want to break up.

But this speaks for every forward on the Sharks. Every one is valuble in it's own way, and some will draw more assets back in a trade

UNTOUCHABLES
Marleau-NTC, fastest forward on the team, last years leading goal scorer
Heatley-Doubt he gets traded, don't know precise things about NTC
Thornton-Captain, Core of team

Our 4-second line forwards
Clowe-producing very well this year, arguably best forward thus far
Couture-Created tons of chemistry with Clowe, 21 years old, shows a promising career ahead of him
Setoguchi-Won't fetch close to the value that he would of as a rookie, but I still believe he can get his act together, he is 23. Also is signed to a cheap contract that expires at the end of this season (RFA)
Pavelski-Great forward, very clutch, big reason for postseason sucsesses last year and is a premier second line center


Last edited by sweHockeypunk21: 12-19-2010 at 04:14 PM.
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Old
12-19-2010, 04:17 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flutie Flakes View Post
Change Doherty, Joslin, and MacIntyre out and replace with Couture and the value would be closer...

TO SJ

Suter OR Weber
Ellis

TO NSH

Pavelski
Couture
1st
Giving up Couture is a rip-off for SJ. The Kid is off limits.

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jonny2134 View Post
Giving up Couture is a rip-off for SJ. The Kid is off limits.
And our best player is off limits as well. Couture would have to be involved for Poile to stay on the phone.

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:24 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Because 90% of the time that is exactly what happens. Very rare for these kinds of deals to go down 1-to-1.
really, 90% of the time? the only time that trades like these happen are when players request trades and GMs have to scramble to get a deal. Suter is a top 10 d-man in the league, you can't just put together good players to obtain him. Nashville needs an elite player going back.

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:27 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
And again, you're simply generalizing things because you don't know anything about the assets involved. Marginalizing someone like Pavelski as a 'nice asset' is severely misrepresenting his actual trade value.

The other assets, if you want to marginalize it, that's fine. However, guys like Suter from teams like Nashville, when they get traded, they get traded for those packages. Plain and simple. You don't EVER get the other team's best young assets...ever.
Yeah, everything you are saying is true...when elite players request trades and GMs have their hands tied. As good as Pavelski is, he is not going to get an ELITE defenceman back in a trade. I'm marginalizing the other assets because they are unproven and not enough to get Suter back. You're just trying to get a star player without having to give up anything too significant outside of Pavelski, and that is stupid because acquiring Suter will take your best assets.

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by svat View Post
really, 90% of the time? the only time that trades like these happen are when players request trades and GMs have to scramble to get a deal. Suter is a top 10 d-man in the league, you can't just put together good players to obtain him. Nashville needs an elite player going back.
Dion Phaneuf didn't ask for a trade and he got a 2nd pairing d-man and a 2nd line forward in return for the most part. That's the closest comparable you're likely going to get. But the way the NHL trading works is that top players NEVER get full value. That is why they're not traded unless they need to move on.

So in reality, either Nashville keeps Suter (99.9% likely) or they trade him for substantially less than what is perceived to be full value. They never get a team's top prospects nor do they get a team's top few young players. If they get anyone off of a pro team, it's going to be guy in their mid-20's and not the early 20's.

Elite players almost never return elite players. The last exception that I can remember off the top of my head was Heatley for Hossa.

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Old
12-19-2010, 04:39 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by svat View Post
Yeah, everything you are saying is true...when elite players request trades and GMs have their hands tied. As good as Pavelski is, he is not going to get an ELITE defenceman back in a trade. I'm marginalizing the other assets because they are unproven and not enough to get Suter back. You're just trying to get a star player without having to give up anything too significant outside of Pavelski, and that is stupid because acquiring Suter will take your best assets.
It's not just trade requests. It's whenever a GM decides for whatever reason to put the player on the trade block. Phaneuf, Pronger, and Boyle were all put on the block and didn't get significant returns that you seem to think Suter is worth. It's simply not going to happen.

Elite players NEVER get perceived full value. What else has to happen for you to get that? There is simply no trade that a superstar gets what people like you seem to be asking for with Suter. Suter is never going to return a Calder trophy candidate mid-season or in the off-season after said player potentially wins that award. Elite players will never return another team's top two or three young roster players and a team's top two or three prospects. You may get one but certainly not both and you'll be lucky to get one or the other as it generally doesn't happen.

Elite players will always return packages that will seem like he is being undersold. That is simply the reality of today's NHL. If Suter is put on the block for whatever reason, he's either going to get a Phaneuf deal or a Pronger deal. He's not returning an elite player. That's why Nashville will keep him but don't make some argument that if he's put on the table he'd return an elite player because history says otherwise.

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Old
12-19-2010, 08:53 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Dion Phaneuf didn't ask for a trade and he got a 2nd pairing d-man and a 2nd line forward in return for the most part. That's the closest comparable you're likely going to get. But the way the NHL trading works is that top players NEVER get full value. That is why they're not traded unless they need to move on.

So in reality, either Nashville keeps Suter (99.9% likely) or they trade him for substantially less than what is perceived to be full value. They never get a team's top prospects nor do they get a team's top few young players. If they get anyone off of a pro team, it's going to be guy in their mid-20's and not the early 20's.

Elite players almost never return elite players. The last exception that I can remember off the top of my head was Heatley for Hossa.
... Did you really just equate Dion Phaneuf to Ryan Suter...?

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Old
12-19-2010, 09:05 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Dion Phaneuf didn't ask for a trade and he got a 2nd pairing d-man and a 2nd line forward in return for the most part. That's the closest comparable you're likely going to get. But the way the NHL trading works is that top players NEVER get full value. That is why they're not traded unless they need to move on.

So in reality, either Nashville keeps Suter (99.9% likely) or they trade him for substantially less than what is perceived to be full value. They never get a team's top prospects nor do they get a team's top few young players. If they get anyone off of a pro team, it's going to be guy in their mid-20's and not the early 20's.

Elite players almost never return elite players. The last exception that I can remember off the top of my head was Heatley for Hossa.
Suter doesn't have anywhere near the baggage that The Dion came with though.

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Old
12-19-2010, 10:23 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Jonny2134 View Post
Giving up Couture is a rip-off for SJ. The Kid is off limits.
Need to give to get... if SJ wants their top 4 d-man in Suter they would need to give up a great package to get him. SJ isn't trading with Boston (lol) so won't be able to get a star player for spare parts

hopefully for San Jose, Couture does not follow the same career paths as Cheechoo and Seto (for now at least), as a young forward who dominates early on then forgets how to play

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Old
12-19-2010, 10:24 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Dfence033 View Post
... Did you really just equate Dion Phaneuf to Ryan Suter...?
Hopefully that was a joke

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Old
12-19-2010, 10:31 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Flutie Flakes View Post
Need to give to get... if SJ wants their top 4 d-man in Suter they would need to give up a great package to get him. SJ isn't trading with Boston (lol) so won't be able to get a star player for spare parts

hopefully for San Jose, Couture does not follow the same career paths as Cheechoo and Seto (for now at least), as a young forward who dominates early on then forgets how to play
? Cheechoo wasn't young when he put his Richard trophy winning season together. He also has had 2 pulled groins. Setoguchi is learning how to play at both ends of the ice so his production has fell off a bit.

Your generalizations about sharks players show you never watch them.

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Old
12-19-2010, 10:39 PM
  #40
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? Cheechoo wasn't young when he put his Richard trophy winning season together. He also has had 2 pulled groins. Setoguchi is learning how to play at both ends of the ice so his production has fell off a bit.

Your generalizations about sharks players show you never watch them.
Yea you're right... 25 is an aged, experienced, veteran

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Old
12-19-2010, 10:50 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's not just trade requests. It's whenever a GM decides for whatever reason to put the player on the trade block. Phaneuf, Pronger, and Boyle were all put on the block and didn't get significant returns that you seem to think Suter is worth. It's simply not going to happen.
There were extenuating circumstances with each of those defensemen that simply aren't there with Suter.

Quote:
Elite players NEVER get perceived full value. What else has to happen for you to get that? There is simply no trade that a superstar gets what people like you seem to be asking for with Suter. Suter is never going to return a Calder trophy candidate mid-season or in the off-season after said player potentially wins that award. Elite players will never return another team's top two or three young roster players and a team's top two or three prospects. You may get one but certainly not both and you'll be lucky to get one or the other as it generally doesn't happen.
Elite players are never dealt on a bargain contract like the one Suter's on either, a fact that's getting repeatedly glossed over.

The guy makes as much as Jeff Finger.

Quote:
Elite players will always return packages that will seem like he is being undersold. That is simply the reality of today's NHL. If Suter is put on the block for whatever reason, he's either going to get a Phaneuf deal or a Pronger deal. He's not returning an elite player. That's why Nashville will keep him but don't make some argument that if he's put on the table he'd return an elite player because history says otherwise.
The reality that ignores Suter's age, cap hit, and absence of circumstances that would lead to a trade...conveniently in a proposal that has him coming to your team.

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Old
12-19-2010, 11:15 PM
  #42
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We say no to all of these deals plain and simple, Pavelski doesn't equal Suter, we are not looking for more prospects and The Sharks first round pick will between 20-32, thus we don't no need to trade our best player these players. The only way that Nashville would go after a 4+ million dollar forward is if it was for a game breaker and despite the fact that we can all agree that Pavelski is a very solid player, he is not what Nashville is looking for at this juncture.

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Old
12-20-2010, 01:41 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
It's not just trade requests. It's whenever a GM decides for whatever reason to put the player on the trade block. Phaneuf, Pronger, and Boyle were all put on the block and didn't get significant returns that you seem to think Suter is worth. It's simply not going to happen.

Elite players NEVER get perceived full value. What else has to happen for you to get that? There is simply no trade that a superstar gets what people like you seem to be asking for with Suter. Suter is never going to return a Calder trophy candidate mid-season or in the off-season after said player potentially wins that award. Elite players will never return another team's top two or three young roster players and a team's top two or three prospects. You may get one but certainly not both and you'll be lucky to get one or the other as it generally doesn't happen.

Elite players will always return packages that will seem like he is being undersold. That is simply the reality of today's NHL. If Suter is put on the block for whatever reason, he's either going to get a Phaneuf deal or a Pronger deal. He's not returning an elite player. That's why Nashville will keep him but don't make some argument that if he's put on the table he'd return an elite player because history says otherwise.
What do you not understand about circumstances and context? Those names are not comparable. Pronger was sent away because Anaheim chose Niedermayer over him. The Phaneuf trade is a jumbled mess that few actually know the context behind, and Boyle was traded because their GM was full retard and because he was injured. Again, Ryan Suter is an elite defenceman with no problems and the team has no reason to trade. If he was traded, it would be for an elite player. Stop being foolish.

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Old
12-20-2010, 09:17 AM
  #44
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typical hyperbole around here.

You seriously consider moving Suter if Pavelski is on the table, let alone a package of very good prospects and NHL ready players. Not saying you do the deal, but 'not even close' is such crap.
nashville doesn't because down the middle they have lombardi when he heals up and o'reilly leading their top two lines, and legwans and goc centering their bottom two. pavelski does not fit.

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12-20-2010, 09:43 AM
  #45
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What do you not understand about circumstances and context? Those names are not comparable. Pronger was sent away because Anaheim chose Niedermayer over him. The Phaneuf trade is a jumbled mess that few actually know the context behind, and Boyle was traded because their GM was full retard and because he was injured. Again, Ryan Suter is an elite defenceman with no problems and the team has no reason to trade. If he was traded, it would be for an elite player. Stop being foolish.
What you're not understanding is that it won't matter what circumstances or context it is. If and when the GM decides to put Ryan Suter on the trading table, he's not going to get an elite player back.

You seem unable to separate the two comments I'm making. Right now, there is no reason for Nashville to trade Ryan Suter. However, if he gets put on the table, he's not getting an elite player back no matter the circumstances. He either stays put in Nashville or he gets a package in return...not an elite player.

Ryan Suter is not getting dealt anytime soon because Poile is a smart man. He knows damn well that if he ever did have to deal Suter, he's not going to get what he wants because that is simply how the trade landscape works with elite players and it doesn't matter what context the trade discussion ends up being. He won't get perceived full value.

Give an example of an elite level player that was dealt for full value w/o any sort of baggage or criticisms. Because they are few and far between. The point is that something would have to happen for Suter to be put on the block and what that something is will significantly reduce his trade value.

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Old
12-20-2010, 09:57 AM
  #46
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Nashville wouldn't pay $4million for a forward.
Dumont - 4 million
Legwand-5.75 million
Erat- 5.75 million

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Old
12-20-2010, 12:07 PM
  #47
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Any trade for Suter or Weber would have to blow the Preds away.

Pavs
Setoguchi
Top dman prospect
2 1sts

For either guy.
Those 2 aren't going to fall into the Sharks lap the way Thornton, Heatley and Boyle did.
Of course there's the obvious point that Nashville doesn't need to make any trade including those guys.

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12-20-2010, 12:32 PM
  #48
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It's pretty funny how everyone thinks that their team will never be the one that has to take a package for its star player. I can't think of a single trade since the lockout involving an elite player that has returned another elite player. The last trade of that nature I remember was Hossa-for-Heatley (and de Vries in there somewhere too).

Thornton? Package. Heatley? Package. Boyle? Package. Kovalchuk? Package. Phaneuf? Package. Pronger? Package. Richards? Package. Starting to see a pattern here?

If the Predators decide to unload one of Weber or Suter, something I find rather unlikely, only a delusional Predators homer could think that their elite player will be the first one in half a decade to fetch an elite player in return. And to the posters above that talk about how everyone in that list is a victim of some kind of circumstance - you think that if Suter or Weber gets moved, that it WON'T be because there's some circumstance? Like, for example, the Preds LOSING and needing to rebuild/add forward depth/shake things up/whatever? That's about as much of a circumstance as is necessary, and that bar isn't very high.

Boyle (and Lukowich) went for Carle, Wishart, 1st, 4th. Pronger went for Lupul, Sbisa, 2 1sts, and a conditional 3rd. If you take the most recent superstar blockbuster, Kovalchuk fetched Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier, 1st. LMFAO at the Sharks giving up Pavelski + Setoguchi PLUS a top defensive prospect PLUS two firsts. You're dreaming.


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Old
12-20-2010, 02:28 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraith985 View Post
If the Predators decide to unload one of Weber or Suter, something I find rather unlikely, only a delusional Predators homer could think that their elite player will be the first one in half a decade to fetch an elite player in return. And to the posters above that talk about how everyone in that list is a victim of some kind of circumstance - you think that if Suter or Weber gets moved, that it WON'T be because there's some circumstance? Like, for example, the Preds LOSING and needing to rebuild/add forward depth/shake things up/whatever? That's about as much of a circumstance as is necessary, and that bar isn't very high.

Boyle (and Lukowich) went for Carle, Wishart, 1st, 4th. Pronger went for Lupul, Sbisa, 2 1sts, and a conditional 3rd. If you take the most recent superstar blockbuster, Kovalchuk fetched Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier, 1st. LMFAO at the Sharks giving up Pavelski + Setoguchi PLUS a top defensive prospect PLUS two firsts. You're dreaming.
His value comes down to who is making the phone call. If its Poile calling teams(highly unlikely) then, yes, he is getting packaged offers. Most likely, it'd be the other GM calling in which case Poile is asking for the sun and the moon or telling that GM to **** off. So if a team is desperate enough I think Suter could fetch another elite player.

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12-20-2010, 02:47 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by wraith985 View Post
Boyle (and Lukowich) went for Carle, Wishart, 1st, 4th. Pronger went for Lupul, Sbisa, 2 1sts, and a conditional 3rd. If you take the most recent superstar blockbuster, Kovalchuk fetched Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier, 1st. LMFAO at the Sharks giving up Pavelski + Setoguchi PLUS a top defensive prospect PLUS two firsts. You're dreaming.
All the trades you mentioned were players that were not going to be retained for various reasons. Weber and Suter are not in that situation. Poile doesn't have to listen to any offers he doesn't want to. In order to pry someone as good as Weber or Suter away you're going to have to make a ridiculous offer. Hence the huge payment suggested. When a player doesn't want or need to be moved his value is much higher. Your examples simply don't apply here.

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