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Old
12-21-2010, 11:35 AM
  #76
WJG
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
i used to be a firm believer that the 31 december deadline was (like all previous deadlines) loose at the very best....if there was even a shred of progress it would be allowed to continue.

after seeing the panic in glendale's eyes last week, i am begining to think differently....they voted to accept what seemed to be an unfinished agreement, with all its to be determined revenue sources and such.....it looks to me that they felt the pressure to show the NHL that they are progressing.

all this leads me to speculate that the deadline might be a more significant milestone than i had originally considered.

i also didnt give goldwater much credit, but the deal seems so easy to pull apart that they might be a factor....they were lobbed a big fat watermelon and all they really have to do is swing at it....if it was even remotely difficult i suspect they would move along but im not sure how they can not step up to the plate on this one.
Agreed.

My personal theory is that the NHL set a number of deadlines for COG to meet over the past few months, and each time they have desperately tried to meet them the best they can.

IMO, it's no coincidence that positive news (or news of any kind, really) regarding the Coyotes has always been released on exactly the 15th of each month. That leads me to believe that monthly deadlines of some type may have existed on or prior to the 15th of each month.

Sept. 15th - COG announces Hulsizer has placed a 25 million deposit down on buying the Coyotes (the same amount the NHL wanted in order to keep the team in Glendale another year). The deadline could have been for COG to actually place the money they agreed to in an account for the NHL to draw from.

Oct. 15th - the NHL and Hulsizer announce they have a "conceptual agreement" in place. Whatever and whenever the deadline was, Hulsizer (and by extension, COG) must have met it.

November 15th - Daly on the FAN 590 announces that the COG will vote on a lease agreement at the council meeting that week and that Hulsizer would be approved by the BOG in December. That vote never took place and Hulsizer was subsequently never approved as an owner by BOG (although they did meet with him). Possibly a missed deadline?

December 15th - COG approves a partial lease agreement with Hulsizer at their council meeting the night before. Really, they could have done this weeks ago, considering we all knew there was no chance of them rejecting it, so why wait until the last council meeting of the year? It's not like they needed the extra time to complete it, parts of the approved lease are still TBA.


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Old
12-21-2010, 01:21 PM
  #77
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Here is an interesting interview with Bill Daly by a local Phoenix radio station.
When asked about the value in Glendale paying $197 million to keep the team, Daly does a real nice tap dance then never really answers the question

http://www.xtra910.com/cc-common/med...KGME-AM&TRACK=


Last edited by JetFan4Ever: 12-21-2010 at 01:25 PM. Reason: broken link
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Old
12-21-2010, 02:10 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by JetFan4Ever View Post
Here is an interesting interview with Bill Daly by a local Phoenix radio station.
When asked about the value in Glendale paying $197 million to keep the team, Daly does a real nice tap dance then never really answers the question

http://www.xtra910.com/cc-common/med...KGME-AM&TRACK=

Bill Daly says when asked about the close of the deal "Cautiously Optimistic..."

Jesus, Marry, and Joseph!!!! (2nd time I've said that this week) Cautiously Optimistic????!?!??!? I was expecting him to say "I've been wearing a damn party hat since last tuesday, that's how good I feel about this deal closing"

The closer it looks like everything is wrapping up the more aloof all the players involved seem. It looks abysmal and the deal is imminent... It looks great and they are cautiously optimistic.

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12-21-2010, 02:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Actually, you are incorrect. Bonds do not work like a car payment where you are paying down principal as well as making interest payments. Bonds are interest only payments with a balloon payment to retire them. They may not be able to pay down any of the prioincipal or retire any of the bonds early, it depends on the terms when the bond is issued.
FYI, from page 60 of the Glendale Financial statement, the Bonds do appear to have a principal component associated with them.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Glendale bonds.pdf‎ (38.2 KB, 12 views)

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Old
12-21-2010, 02:35 PM
  #80
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I have been following this Phoenix thing for quite sometime and I love this whole HF board area because I don't have the time to check on the more detailed areas of the Coyotes situation. So I say thank you to all of you devoted posters that are doing all of the grunt work!.

For me this whole saga was done a long long time ago, I believed and still believe that Bettman would not have let this team move under any circumstance except maybe an earthquake destroying Jobing arena. This whole GI threat is at best a stall. I have wanted more teams in Canada as much as the next Canadian, but I believe that Bettman's pride is stopping that. It's not fair to blame Pheonix and Atlanta and it just breeds resentment on both sides of the boarder. If it was up to me I would expand the NHL and create 3-4 more teams in Canada and 2-3 more teams in the US. It has been discussed here more than once that good management and ownership is critical for a productive NHL team, if the NHL would screen potential owners more, than problems would not arise like they have in the past or like they are right now.

Merry Christmas Hockey Fans!!!

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12-21-2010, 03:05 PM
  #81
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Conspiracy Theory Alert!

Here's one.

CoG realizes that this is a lose lose for them. Lose in signing a bad lease, or lose if they choose to cut losses and walk away from the Coyotes so the knowingly come up with a lease that Goldwater will challenge and win. That way they can say that they tried their hardest but its those darn Goldwater guys that lost the Coyotes.

Far fetched but fun to think of conspiracy theories none the less.

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12-21-2010, 03:55 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jimmy999 View Post
Conspiracy Theory Alert!

Here's one.

CoG realizes that this is a lose lose for them. Lose in signing a bad lease, or lose if they choose to cut losses and walk away from the Coyotes so the knowingly come up with a lease that Goldwater will challenge and win. That way they can say that they tried their hardest but its those darn Goldwater guys that lost the Coyotes.

Far fetched but fun to think of conspiracy theories none the less.
Not a great result if GI decides not to sue and they are left with a contract they didn't want.

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12-21-2010, 04:05 PM
  #83
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It seems at the deadline got closer Mayor Scruggs and the Glendale council sure change their tune wrt to subsidies. here is a quote from AZ Central discussing Reinsdorf's bid:

Resnik reported that Jerry Reinsdorf, who hopes to keep the team in Glendale, was seeking $15 million in incentives from the city. He quoted Scruggs as saying, "That's far beyond anything we would be willing to do regardless of our means."

15 mil would have been a good ol fashion bargoon!

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12-21-2010, 04:07 PM
  #84
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I have been following this Phoenix thing for quite sometime and I love this whole HF board area because I don't have the time to check on the more detailed areas of the Coyotes situation. So I say thank you to all of you devoted posters that are doing all of the grunt work!.

For me this whole saga was done a long long time ago, I believed and still believe that Bettman would not have let this team move under any circumstance except maybe an earthquake destroying Jobing arena. This whole GI threat is at best a stall. I have wanted more teams in Canada as much as the next Canadian, but I believe that Bettman's pride is stopping that. It's not fair to blame Pheonix and Atlanta and it just breeds resentment on both sides of the boarder. If it was up to me I would expand the NHL and create 3-4 more teams in Canada and 2-3 more teams in the US. It has been discussed here more than once that good management and ownership is critical for a productive NHL team, if the NHL would screen potential owners more, than problems would not arise like they have in the past or like they are right now.

Merry Christmas Hockey Fans!!!
I agree that the League was/is deeply committed to keeping the team in Phoenix. But I also believe that this is the last chance. If for some reason this falls apart, (though I really doubt this happens) the team is gone.

You will not see expansion for a good while. Certainly not until after the next CBA and the ramifications of any changes have played out, so five or six years from now at least I would guess.

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12-21-2010, 04:32 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by JetFan4Ever View Post

Resnik reported that Jerry Reinsdorf, who hopes to keep the team in Glendale, was seeking $15 million in incentives from the city. He quoted Scruggs as saying, "That's far beyond anything we would be willing to do regardless of our means."
Was that 15 mil total or 15 mil a year in a similar arrangement to what they're doing now with Hulsizer?

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Old
12-21-2010, 04:34 PM
  #86
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It's not fair to blame Phoenix and Atlanta and it just breeds resentment on both sides of the boarder. If it was up to me I would expand the NHL and create 3-4 more teams in Canada and 2-3 more teams in the US. It has been discussed here more than once that good management and ownership is critical for a productive NHL team. If the NHL would screen potential owners more, than problems would not arise like they have in the past or like they are right now.
Well said, and thanks for the thanks!. Unfortunately, the NHL doesnt have much choice in terms of "potential" owners in the aforementioned markets as its' not like people were, are or would ever likely be lining up to bid on the Coyotes, Thrashers, Panthers etc etc etc, so the oft Heralded "strict screening process" basically "depends on the situation". You could probably count on one and a half hands how many "good" ownership groups exist in the NHL, a league with a long, rich & colorful history of duplicity & self dealing. I dont think Gary Bettmans ego has a thing to do with whether or not the Coyotes live or die, stay or go, everything to do with initially fending off the Balsillie & secondarily & of even far more importance, protecting NHL insiders & friends of the leagues investments in Glendale. As unprecedented & one sided a deal as this is between the COG & Hulsizer, you'll hear nary a word of concern or care from Bettman or Daly whose consciences are apparently clear (no gain with shame). Mathew Hulsizer & Company the kind of owner the league wants. Im in the camp that believes the NHL can actually survive & thrive in Phoenix given the right ownership group & a turnaround in the economy. But this?. This deal?. Dubious to say the least.

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12-21-2010, 07:20 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by AllByDesign View Post
Bill Daly says when asked about the close of the deal "Cautiously Optimistic..."

Jesus, Marry, and Joseph!!!! (2nd time I've said that this week) Cautiously Optimistic????!?!??!? I was expecting him to say "I've been wearing a damn party hat since last tuesday, that's how good I feel about this deal closing"

The closer it looks like everything is wrapping up the more aloof all the players involved seem. It looks abysmal and the deal is imminent... It looks great and they are cautiously optimistic.
He's cautiously optimistic because he's worried the day of the press conference, after MH has his cheque, there's breaking news that Jobbing arena suddenly imploded-fortunately no one was hurt. MH's response? "I understand a gent in Winnipeg would like a hockey team....."

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12-21-2010, 10:04 PM
  #88
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Actually, you are incorrect. Bonds do not work like a car payment where you are paying down principal as well as making interest payments. Bonds are interest only payments with a balloon payment to retire them. They may not be able to pay down any of the prioincipal or retire any of the bonds early, it depends on the terms when the bond is issued.




Not sure where you live but the assessed value of a property is multiplied by a tax rate to determine a tax bill. They do not go "gee, I am spending $2,000 so you pay x and you pay y". If the tax rate remains the same and the assessed value falls, tax revenue falls. Increases in tax rates for property taxes usually requires approval from the voters/city council/etc., depending on where you live. This is why governments are struggling right now, the tax base is falling.

Same principal with sales tax. If sales within an area fall, the revenue provided by taxes on those sales declines as well.
This varies greatly from state to state and even town to town.

In my city, assessed value is essentially a weight. The city calculates how much it needs in property tax revenue (it can't go up more than 2.5% a year here in MA) then divides by the total assessed value to come up with the rate.

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12-21-2010, 10:06 PM
  #89
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FYI, from page 60 of the Glendale Financial statement, the Bonds do appear to have a principal component associated with them.
Actually, that just shows payments and interest amounts, it does not mean they work the way you think. For example, the bonds that were used to pay the construction have several different lengths of maturities thus causing principal payments in some years. You would have to look at the actual bond issue itself to determine what if any principal is being paid down as part of any payments being made. The bonds may have had no principal payments the first 20 years then graduated principal payments.

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12-21-2010, 10:24 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Actually, that just shows payments and interest amounts, it does not mean they work the way you think. For example, the bonds that were used to pay the construction have several different lengths of maturities thus causing principal payments in some years. You would have to look at the actual bond issue itself to determine what if any principal is being paid down as part of any payments being made. The bonds may have had no principal payments the first 20 years then graduated principal payments.
i tried this once earlier and i will give it one more shot.......is a bond issue affected by an outstanding lawsuit?.....for example if GWI were to file a suit against the CoG and focus on the management fees but also wrap the sale of the rights to the parking into the suit could the bonds still be taken to the market to raise the $125 million? what if any impact could a GWI stink bomb legit or otherwise have on the funding? i am not into the bond game so any insight would be appreciated!

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12-21-2010, 10:39 PM
  #91
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He's cautiously optimistic because he's worried the day of the press conference, after MH has his cheque, there's breaking news that Jobbing arena suddenly imploded-fortunately no one was hurt. MH's response? "I understand a gent in Winnipeg would like a hockey team....."

I hope the COG gives him an oversized novelty cheque. That would make my year.

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12-21-2010, 11:07 PM
  #92
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Well said, and thanks for the thanks!. Unfortunately, the NHL doesnt have much choice in terms of "potential" owners in the aforementioned markets as its' not like people were, are or would ever likely be lining up to bid on the Coyotes, Thrashers, Panthers etc etc etc, so the oft Heralded "strict screening process" basically "depends on the situation". You could probably count on one and a half hands how many "good" ownership groups exist in the NHL, a league with a long, rich & colorful history of duplicity & self dealing. I dont think Gary Bettmans ego has a thing to do with whether or not the Coyotes live or die, stay or go, everything to do with initially fending off the Balsillie & secondarily & of even far more importance, protecting NHL insiders & friends of the leagues investments in Glendale. As unprecedented & one sided a deal as this is between the COG & Hulsizer, you'll hear nary a word of concern or care from Bettman or Daly whose consciences are apparently clear (no gain with shame). Mathew Hulsizer & Company the kind of owner the league wants. Im in the camp that believes the NHL can actually survive & thrive in Phoenix given the right ownership group & a turnaround in the economy. But this?. This deal?. Dubious to say the least.
I wish more would give consideration to your point here, Killion. While those of us in Phoenix would love to believe Bettman and the league are doing this primarily because they believe that much in this market (just as some Jets-back-to-the-Peg hopefuls love to believe they don't have a team because Bettman hates Canada), many of us know better.

Of course it's about the Balsillie-concocted BK plan sold to Moyes, and the league wanting to make the point to other owners not to try this again. And with Judge Baum's ruling the league does hold the right to decide where a team plays, owners now understand that. If they wish to challenge that legal ruling, more power to them. The league won't swoop in and buy the team, but they'll sure block any attempt of a non-local sale using Baum's ruling as the basis.

The perception of not leaving the COG hanging enters into it as well, but I'm not naive enough to believe that the NHL isn't man behind the curtain, encouraging the COG to do whatever is necessary to keep the team here: part belief in the long-term viability of the market; part NHL not wanting to look like JB was successful in any way, shape or form.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
Actually, that just shows payments and interest amounts, it does not mean they work the way you think. For example, the bonds that were used to pay the construction have several different lengths of maturities thus causing principal payments in some years. You would have to look at the actual bond issue itself to determine what if any principal is being paid down as part of any payments being made. The bonds may have had no principal payments the first 20 years then graduated principal payments.
I believe it was kdb or mouser last year who searched out the bonds and reported on both the maturity dates and those that could be paid off early without penalty. It was during the BK period when people were suggesting COG take Balsillie's $25M and simply pay off arena debt.

I'll try and dig that up if neither one has it handy.

EDIT: Think this it. Happy reading.

http://emma.msrb.org/MS207161-MS182469-MD353821.pdf


Last edited by RR: 12-21-2010 at 11:26 PM.
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Old
12-21-2010, 11:29 PM
  #93
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I said it before, but here goes again: I'll believe this deal is done once all the docs are signed, sealed and delivered.

GHOST

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12-21-2010, 11:37 PM
  #94
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i am in total shock that daly is reduced to 'cautiously optimisitc'....the NHL was just plain optimisitc months ago.....they seem to have gone backwards.

i really thought last week would be the end....i seriously want this to be over....

i have emotionally picked up my marbles and started playing in another pot....i dont want to come back to this one.


it is interesting that when i type 'matt' into the google search bar matthew hulsizer is the third reccommendation it makes....behind a guy who's body they found in the river in montreal today and matt damon...one place above mattel.

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12-21-2010, 11:39 PM
  #95
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I said it before, but here goes again: I'll believe this deal is done once all the docs are signed, sealed and delivered.

GHOST
In reality not going out on much of a limb there, Ghost?

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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
i am in total shock that daly is reduced to 'cautiously optimisitc'....the NHL was just plain optimisitc months ago.....they seem to have gone backwards.

i really thought last week would be the end....i seriously want this to be over....

i have emotionally picked up my marbles and started playing in another pot....i dont want to come back to this one.
What can he say, peter? The league has contended for some time now it's up to the COG and MH. The league's not going to step on its you-know-what at this point and potentially be seen as the entity that brought the deal down. That honor is reserved for COG or MH. And the league will have done all it could.

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12-21-2010, 11:49 PM
  #96
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i tried this once earlier and i will give it one more shot.......is a bond issue affected by an outstanding lawsuit?.....for example if GWI were to file a suit against the CoG and focus on the management fees but also wrap the sale of the rights to the parking into the suit could the bonds still be taken to the market to raise the $125 million? what if any impact could a GWI stink bomb legit or otherwise have on the funding? i am not into the bond game so any insight would be appreciated!
I think that there could be storm clouds here. Would Glendale want to go ahead with a bond sale with potential litigation from Goldwater looming. The worst case scenario is that the issue the bonds give Hulsizer his $100 million and then have a court invalidate the lease agreement.

Then again, Glendale seems to have a penchant for achieving the worst case scenario. Last April, would anyone have believed that Glendale would have an agreement to cover up to $25 million in losses this year and enter into an agreement that directly provided $197 million to the new owner, with no CFD in sight? I didn't think so...

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12-22-2010, 12:17 AM
  #97
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I think that there could be storm clouds here. Would Glendale want to go ahead with a bond sale with potential litigation from Goldwater looming. The worst case scenario is that the issue the bonds give Hulsizer his $100 million and then have a court invalidate the lease agreement.

Then again, Glendale seems to have a penchant for achieving the worst case scenario. Last April, would anyone have believed that Glendale would have an agreement to cover up to $25 million in losses this year and enter into an agreement that directly provided $197 million to the new owner, with no CFD in sight? I didn't think so...
Do you think if GWI is successful in proving the $100M (or $97M) is a direct subsidy AFTER the bonds are sold, that Hulsizer keeps the money if he has been paid? Does Goldwater have to sue him to get it back? Can the court demand he return it? Will he have to sue to keep it? What other legal ramifications could there be?

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12-22-2010, 01:22 AM
  #98
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I hope the COG gives him an oversized novelty cheque. That would make my year.
an hour of my life i'll never get back but here ya go...




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12-22-2010, 01:46 AM
  #99
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^Absolute brilliance.

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12-22-2010, 02:08 AM
  #100
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an hour of my life i'll never get back but here ya go...


oh my god hahahahaha brilliant

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