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OT: Girl forced off of Boys Hockey Team

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:06 AM
  #126
Jimmy Carter
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Originally Posted by gifted88 View Post
It's a shame, for women to play with men they have to be twice as good to get anywhere.
Really is a shame. Was reminiscing about the 2010 Olympics with a buddy and we both agreed that some of the women hockey players could make it in the NHL. Some people argue size difference, but there are small men in the NHL. Hell, there are fragile men in the NHL who get injured multiple times a year, every year. I can't see how there won't be a woman consistently playing in the NHL sometime in the future.

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12-29-2010, 01:20 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter View Post
Really is a shame. Was reminiscing about the 2010 Olympics with a buddy and we both agreed that some of the women hockey players could make it in the NHL. Some people argue size difference, but there are small men in the NHL. Hell, there are fragile men in the NHL who get injured multiple times a year, every year. I can't see how there won't be a woman consistently playing in the NHL sometime in the future.
I want some of what you and your buddy were smoking because you must have been high as hell.

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12-30-2010, 10:54 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by clevelandcrusaders82 View Post
I want some of what you and your buddy were smoking because you must have been high as hell.
Too funny....let's just start on strength issues alone. The average bench press in the NHL is over 300 pounds. Not one woman on those teams probably comes within 100 pounds of that. Not to mention the speed aspect. They're fast...for women. But NHL fast? AHL fast? ECHL fast? SPHL fast? See where I'm going....

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12-30-2010, 11:15 PM
  #129
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Pretty sad that this happened on a team where these kids are going NOWHERE! They aint going to the OHL, NHL, AHL, s***! This story makes me realize how rude and unbelievable hockey parents are...

EDIT: If your a hockey parent, this should offend you... all of you have once or another made fun of a kid on your kid's team, which is just NOT right...

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12-31-2010, 12:27 AM
  #130
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Too funny....let's just start on strength issues alone. The average bench press in the NHL is over 300 pounds. Not one woman on those teams probably comes within 100 pounds of that. Not to mention the speed aspect. They're fast...for women. But NHL fast? AHL fast? ECHL fast? SPHL fast? See where I'm going....
Word that jumps out at me here is average. If you're speaking in averages, of course. But when you start talking highs and lows, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I really don't think it's laughable to think a woman could play a few regular season games one day (already had one play in the preseason), unless you think the league is on it's way out or something. Less possible if stuff like girls being forced off a guys team continues to happen though.

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12-31-2010, 10:50 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter View Post
Word that jumps out at me here is average. If you're speaking in averages, of course. But when you start talking highs and lows, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I really don't think it's laughable to think a woman could play a few regular season games one day (already had one play in the preseason), unless you think the league is on it's way out or something. Less possible if stuff like girls being forced off a guys team continues to happen though.


Stop. It hurts.

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12-31-2010, 11:24 AM
  #132
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Christ, the woman-bashing that goes on here.

I guess because I grew up where female sports is very progessed, I have a very positive view on girls playing sports with guys. We have male AND female hockey leagues, male and female competitive (provincial) hockey leagues, a very well-developped male and female high school hockey system, even female Junior and Senior tackle football leagues!

When I grew up, in Midget hockey (16-18 years old here) we had a female goaltender on our team and she was one of the best in the league. No taller than 5'4, but mobile and flexible like you wouldn't believe. Very solid. I'd say at least 50% of the league had at least one girl on the roster, and we even had an all-girls team called the "South-East Female Flyers" for those that wanted to play in our league, but felt more comfortable around girls.

So, to me, this whole issue is rediculous. Girl or boy, they are equals out there in my book.

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12-31-2010, 11:34 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter View Post
Word that jumps out at me here is average. If you're speaking in averages, of course. But when you start talking highs and lows, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I really don't think it's laughable to think a woman could play a few regular season games one day (already had one play in the preseason), unless you think the league is on it's way out or something. Less possible if stuff like girls being forced off a guys team continues to happen though.
Canada's gold medal winning olympic women's hockey team went 16-10 against AA and AAA midget teams in that series they played in western Canada before the Olympics. The games were non-contact, and they were playing against boys. Unless an NHLer gets a sex change, forget about it.

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12-31-2010, 11:57 AM
  #134
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Christ, the woman-bashing that goes on here.

I guess because I grew up where female sports is very progessed, I have a very positive view on girls playing sports with guys. We have male AND female hockey leagues, male and female competitive (provincial) hockey leagues, a very well-developped male and female high school hockey system, even female Junior and Senior tackle football leagues!

When I grew up, in Midget hockey (16-18 years old here) we had a female goaltender on our team and she was one of the best in the league. No taller than 5'4, but mobile and flexible like you wouldn't believe. Very solid. I'd say at least 50% of the league had at least one girl on the roster, and we even had an all-girls team called the "South-East Female Flyers" for those that wanted to play in our league, but felt more comfortable around girls.

So, to me, this whole issue is rediculous. Girl or boy, they are equals out there in my book.
The trouble with that is, biology disagrees. Women, on average, are simply not as strong as men. Higher pain tolerance and whatever, but they are not as strong. Testosterone is in reality, a big ****ing deal when it comes to strength and athletics. Goaltending is certainly different, quickness is much more important then strength. Look at Ryan Miller, for crying out loud. He looks like a stick figure. A girl could certainly make it in that position. But as a skater, where strength matters, the occasional girl could very well make it on a peewee team. But in the Pros, where all the players are fully grown men with all the muscle bulk that entails, and there are only the best of the best, it just wouldn't work. There's no rule against it in pro hockey, but there's a reason why it hasn't happened yet except for one goalie.


Males and females get equal rights and such obviously, but there are very real chemical differences.

Edit: just wanted to be clear that I don't mean this to apply to A level 12 year olds. It doesn't, the guy is an utter dick.


Last edited by cptjeff: 12-31-2010 at 12:09 PM.
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Old
12-31-2010, 12:08 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by clevelandcrusaders82 View Post
Canada's gold medal winning olympic women's hockey team went 16-10 against AA and AAA midget teams in that series they played in western Canada before the Olympics. The games were non-contact, and they were playing against boys. Unless an NHLer gets a sex change, forget about it.


Please no facts are allowed in this discussion.


Yes. The best womens team in the world lost 10 games out of 26 against 16 year old boys. And yes, the rules were changed by removing body checking to handicap the boys. What are you trying to prove here? That women can't compete with men at the highest levels of sport?


You have proven nothing other than the fact that you are misogynist.



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12-31-2010, 12:40 PM
  #136
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How good was she, relative to other players?

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12-31-2010, 01:02 PM
  #137
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Angela Ruggerio played one game in the CHL, as a defenseman, and easily could have played the season with them, she did it to play one game of professional hockey with her brother, who was the goaltender at the game.

I believe it was Wickenheiser that played over in Europe, for a season or 2 etc,

To say with absolute certainty that no woman could ever play in the NHL is asinine and absurd. The same comments were made about numerous players that they would never ever play in the show, and yet, they are.

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12-31-2010, 01:13 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter View Post
Really is a shame. Was reminiscing about the 2010 Olympics with a buddy and we both agreed that some of the women hockey players could make it in the NHL. Some people argue size difference, but there are small men in the NHL. Hell, there are fragile men in the NHL who get injured multiple times a year, every year. I can't see how there won't be a woman consistently playing in the NHL sometime in the future.
I'd predict that the first woman that will regularly play in the NHL will be a goalie, and, about 10-20 years after that goalie started playing will forwards or D-women follow. (Maybe some D-women in that Olympic team would be faster than a certain Hal Gill or Roman Hamrlik...)

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12-31-2010, 01:28 PM
  #139
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umm a woman already played in the nhl... as a backup and she wasn't very good when she started. might sound a little sexist here but don't think a woman can ever be a top 4 nhl d or top 6 forward. can a girl be 4th line grinder or 3rd line energy player? i doubt that too... i think that's the only position a woman can handle at the nhl level is in goal.

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12-31-2010, 01:43 PM
  #140
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The fact that women aren't physically made to play a half-decent physical game doesn't preclude women from playing an intelligent game (be it on the offensive or the defensive) or being able to receive passes from others and feed the puck to other players.

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12-31-2010, 01:54 PM
  #141
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Having her around boys that were changing is bizarre, I agree with that much.
The article said that the boys didn't want to change in front of her which I agree with.

What I don't understand is, if she's supposed to change with the boys, how come they're changing and she's not?

As far as the physical play goes, 12 is the maximum age that there should be co-ed teams. By 14 they'll be killed in a checking league.

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12-31-2010, 01:55 PM
  #142
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The fact that women aren't physically made to play a half-decent physical game doesn't preclude women from playing an intelligent game (be it on the offensive or the defensive) or being able to receive passes from others and feed the puck to other players.
Strength is still required. Say, leg and core strength. I watch Women's hockey on a regular basis, as our school has DI teams in both. The Men skate much faster and play a much faster game. Some of the best female players in the world come into the rink for any given game, and it's obvious enough they wouldn't be able to really keep up in the men's side of the NCAA, much less the NHL.

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12-31-2010, 02:00 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by cptjeff View Post
Strength is still required. Say, leg and core strength. I watch Women's hockey on a regular basis, as our school has DI teams in both. The Men skate much faster and play a much faster game. Some of the best female players in the world come into the rink for any given game, and it's obvious enough they wouldn't be able to really keep up in the men's side of the NCAA, much less the NHL.
When Chris Evert was the number one women's tennis player in the world she was married to John Lloyd, who was somewhere in the top 300 male players. People asked Chris Evert if she could beat Lloyd since she was #1 and he was #250 or so. She said, "I'd be lucky to win one game."

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12-31-2010, 02:03 PM
  #144
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the non physical/intelligent players usually are the best of the best, the best woman player in the world couldn't dominate lower level men's league i don't see how they can make it to the nhl.

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12-31-2010, 09:20 PM
  #145
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the non physical/intelligent players usually are the best of the best, the best woman player in the world couldn't dominate lower level men's league i don't see how they can make it to the nhl.
Spoken out of true ignorance lol.

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01-01-2011, 02:02 AM
  #146
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Dump and Chase wants facts? Here are some factual things he apparently doesn't know!.

Did you guys know that women's hockey was a checking game until 1990, when the IIHF took it out because the US and Canada were too dominant physically (the more things change, eh?)? And did you know that they don't measure NHL bench press stats in max outs, but in repetitions at weight since raw strength isn't the main point of hockey (the combine makes them do reps at 150 pounds, and the 2009 max number was 18)? Did you know several current and former elite NHL players can't bench their own body weight?

Did you know that it's actually harder to knock a woman off the puck with a body check than it is a similar-sized man because a woman's center of gravity is lower, which makes her more stable? Did you know women generally have a higher pain tolerance than men for biological reasons (labor FTW!) and greater endurance?

To quote myself from another thread, discussing the average high-level or international female hockey player versus the average NHL hockey player is dumb for two reasons.

One, at the moment, they have to play different sports, so saying "women don't check" means nothing. Women certainly could check if the game, as drawn up by the IIHF, had that in the rules. Several of the bigger elite players have publicly stated they wished checking was allowed in women's hockey. The ones who want to keep it non-check are, generally, the smaller players who would face a natural disadvantage just like smaller NHL players are at a natural disadvantage. There is nothing that physiologically prevents a 5-11, 190 pound woman like Angela Ruggerio from being able to play with men in a checking league.

And two, "average" means nothing when you are selecting only the elite of the elite. You will almost certainly not get the 5-4, 125 pound Mia Hamm body types in a sport where size is a huge factor, so factoring them into an average is pointless. Plenty of women are 6-feet tall or taller, and a very small percentage rival the tallest of the NHLers (6-7 or taller). It would be a fairly small group that had the chance to make the NHL, but that's also true of males to a lesser degree. Remember, the average male is 5-9. With the way the women's game is set up right now, though,

I think that if/when/whatever a the right female skater comes along, some organization will take a chance on her, even just to give her a dry run at the AHL level. There's no reason not to, and there are no rules against it (as there are in the Olympics, where it's men's hockey and women's hockey, not hockey and women's hockey). Given the way the current system is set up, the most likely candidates are girls who grow up playing on boys' teams because they will have more experience with a checking game, which is a completely different beast than a non-check game.

But boys boys boys. Your male bodies aren't as impressive as you think.

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01-01-2011, 02:48 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Dump and Chase wants facts? Here are some factual things he apparently doesn't know!.

Did you guys know that women's hockey was a checking game until 1990, when the IIHF took it out because the US and Canada were too dominant physically (the more things change, eh?)? And did you know that they don't measure NHL bench press stats in max outs, but in repetitions at weight since raw strength isn't the main point of hockey (the combine makes them do reps at 150 pounds, and the 2009 max number was 18)? Did you know several current and former elite NHL players can't bench their own body weight?

But boys boys boys. Your male bodies aren't as impressive as you think.
Quote:
left out the rest of the pwnage


yeah,.. what SHE said

I find the negative, self serving reaction towards the possible presence of females in male sports, kind of amusing. Now the gretzky's and bill ruggiero's of the world who're perfectly confident in their own masculinities usually have an attitude of, "if she can keep up, why not?" What is the big deal? Its not like EVERY girl will be able to do it. If you're elite for a certain area, then you try out for a travel team.. if you're elite overall you enter the nhl draft. If you can't cut it, you're out.

And before someone breaks out the line about "being destroyed cause they're smaller, weaker..."
I used to coach a "little girl" (and I use the word little cause now she's my height, maybe 170lbs) that's vacilating btw playing boys or girls midget travel hockey (last year she was the most penalized player on her team for throwing too many rough hits ) Can every girl do what she can? doubtful... but then she's been exposed to the environment that pushed her to her present abilities..


Yet, hockey isn't 100% about hitting.. hell its not even 30% nowadays. Next time there's a game, watch and tell me how many "scott stevens" kill a mother****er, type of hits you see.. most of the time its straightforward simple body checking and the biggest hitters rarely throw beyond 5 hits a game, (if that) they often take more out of the thrower anyways.

Angela ruggiero, who kritter brought up above is one example of a woman (even more than wickenheiser) who's more than capable of dealing with (And has shown that she could deal with) mens hockey (Where it not that she makes more doing what she does now). I do wish she'd at least try it out part time as beyond opening doors it'd definately raise the consciousness of the world towards the sport




Like my ex-player, I think one of the biggest issues girls deal with (aside from the absence of body checking) is the inequality in terms of training and competition. Most of the best girls are drawn towards boys hockey.. the gap is narrowing, especially in off ice training (for those who brought up the series against AAA midget teams, remember, bottom line is, the women won more than they lost.... By your logic they shouldn't have even been able to compete right? )



At the development stage though, this father caused a massive fail, beyond messing with the psychie of a little girl. Imagine the effect their ability to improve this little girls skills would've had on her and anyone else she herself inspired?

Anyways, back to george *****.. er.. i mean atis. Seems that his son's "minor league NHL" team STILL hasn't shown any improvement, (besides the fact that his son's little johnson will now, safely, only be seen by other MALES! phew! )

I sent an email to the team complaining that they'd better be on penguins type win streak the next time I check in.. dammit ) I feel for his, and the other sons, on that team though.. They had a perfectly good chance to learn an important life lesson about resolving conflict and evolving as humans... which is what would've mattered 10 yrs or so from now, when they've "retired" due to lack of interest from the nhl (or are playing for the maple leafs )

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01-01-2011, 02:53 PM
  #148
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One thing that bugs me is that it is girl forced off team
If you do not think their is not discussion about getting weaker
players off your kids team your living in a dream world.

My nephew was one of these kids although the parents
were good when he was on the school bus his supposed
friends would blame him for losses thus he quit.

I also wonder if the boys have caught up to her
and passed her because of puberty.

The change room issue is a seperate matter
one thing it should have never become
public and the headline should have been
weaker player being forced off team

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01-01-2011, 03:55 PM
  #149
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the gap is narrowing, especially in off ice training (for those who brought up the series against AAA midget teams, remember, bottom line is, the women won more than they lost.... By your logic they shouldn't have even been able to compete right? )

Yes. They won more than they lost this is true. The point is that it was a team of adult women on the best female hockey team in the world who beat teams of teen aged boys.


Making the argument that these women are even in the same universe as the top 700 adult male hockey players in the world is asinine. Anyone who disputes this fact is deluding themselves.


Using the case of the handful of girls who play midget travel hockey as an argument is not very convincing. For that handful of girls who can play at that level there is a sea of boys doing the exact same thing. Here are some numbers to back that up:



The 1975 Birth year in Ontario had 30,000 players who played minor hockey in the province.

The 1975 group of players was considered by many NHL Scouts as the strongest group of players the province
has ever produced.

Out of those 232 players drafted to the OHL, only 105 ever played one game in the OHL.
Out of those 105 players, only 90 finished their full 3 or 4 years of eligibility in the OHL.
There were 56 players from the 1975 age group that were either drafted or signed by a National
Hockey League team (by far the most of any birth year Ontario has experienced!). Forty-eight
(48) of those 56 players were drafted by NHL teams!
Of the 48 drafted players only 39 signed contracts with NHL teams. Eight players signed as free agents
after going un-drafted as NCAA or major junior players.
Of the 48 signed players, only 32 have seen action to date in an NHL game.
Of the 32 players with NHL experience, only 15 have played more than one (1) full NHL season!


I repeat. 32 of those 30,000 boys in the strongest player pool ever got to suit up for an NHL game.


What do you think the player pool in western Canada was for that group of midget boys who went 10-16 against the best womens team in the world? How about all of Canada? What if we add the US? And then the world?



Sure some women have been given opportunities to play a few games of pro hockey but that is more about marketing than it is ability. If they had the ability why did they not put together a career? Or even 1 full season?


If a women comes along who can handle the speed and strength of the mens game I think she should get the opportunity. As of right now in the world there is not a single female who is capable of sharing the ice with the elite men in the world and there doesn't appear to be any in the foreseeable future.


Oh, and for all of the women who take offense to this subject I have one last thing to say. You can blame men for not believing in you and you can blame men for not giving you the opportunity but it is your own genetics more than anything that is to blame. Unfortunately it is easier to blame someone else.

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01-01-2011, 04:20 PM
  #150
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this is just stupid... theres a girl on my juvenile team and there have been many instances where she's been weak on the puck or made dumb decisions but who hasn't really? from what i've seen she wants it way more than a few players even tho its just a regular juvenile white league... she even got checked badly last time and popped right back up

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