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PK Subban: At what point do we worry?

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Old
12-24-2010, 05:04 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Metropolitsky View Post
Better then believing CBC and everything Cherry said don't you think. ?

Sure everybody here would be better than the coach...let's call ourselves expert but don't forget to add the at the end
Hockey isn't a exact science. It is more a probability game than everything. In that way, we couldn't say that one opinion is better than another. I don't like peoples blaming someone for his opinion, because in the end, it could be the best one.

Many peoples call Gauthier crazy after dealing Halak, but it ended up as the best decision. Chose Price over Brule, etc.. etc..

So, I don't see the problem of listening to either RDS or CBC.

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12-24-2010, 05:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
I would bet my life that if Subban we're put on the trading block Boucher would whisper into Yzerman's ear "acquire this young man at whatever costs necessary".

He may have things to learn, but he isn't going to learn them from the press box.
I'll trade PK straight Up for Stamkos

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12-24-2010, 05:08 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
I'll trade PK straight Up for Stamkos
It's pretty much a given that Stamkos is untouchable, but the only other player on that roster who *may* be untouchable would be Hedman.

I have zero doubts Boucher would love to build his blue line for the years to come around Hedman and Subban.

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12-24-2010, 05:19 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
It's pretty much a given that Stamkos is untouchable, but the only other player on that roster who *may* be untouchable would be Hedman.

I have zero doubts Boucher would love to build his blue line for the years to come around Hedman and Subban.
Yeah but you said whatever cost necessary. I want Stamkos or no deal.

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12-24-2010, 05:22 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
It's pretty much a given that Stamkos is untouchable, but the only other player on that roster who *may* be untouchable would be Hedman.

I have zero doubts Boucher would love to build his blue line for the years to come around Hedman and Subban.

Yeah, but him being in TB means he'd lose his demigod status.

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12-24-2010, 05:58 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
Yeah but you said whatever cost necessary. I want Stamkos or no deal.

You could offer Subban, Price, and a 1st for the next 5 years for Stamkos and Yzerman would still laugh in your face. I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, but if not Stamkos is pretty much untouchable especially to Montreal because they don't have the value to match the value of Stamkos.

When it comes to PK i think those who are worrying should take a page from Price's book and just chill. Relax. I'm not a big fan of the guy, but i got to admit that i feel kinda sorry for Subban. He came into the NHL expecting to be a superstar from game 1. He's pretty much on par offensively than what everyone should expect of him but the truth is, he's a liability on defence more than most people expected. If he wasn't as hyped up as he was coming into the league and at the start of this season than i think he wouldn't be getting as much discussion as he's getting now that he's been scratched a few times. Fact of the matter is, he's just not as good right now as he was expected to be. He's only young and will be a star in this league but right now he's a rookie in the best league in the world who needs a little more time to develop his skills defensively. IMHO this is what should have been expected from a player in this stage of his career.

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12-24-2010, 06:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Talent Analyst View Post
Hockey isn't a exact science. It is more a probability game than everything. In that way, we couldn't say that one opinion is better than another. I don't like peoples blaming someone for his opinion, because in the end, it could be the best one.

Many peoples call Gauthier crazy after dealing Halak, but it ended up as the best decision. Chose Price over Brule, etc.. etc..

So, I don't see the problem of listening to either RDS or CBC.
This is ALWAYS false. There's always one argument who is better than another.

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12-24-2010, 06:33 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Great One View Post
You could offer Subban, Price, and a 1st for the next 5 years for Stamkos and Yzerman would still laugh in your face. I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, but if not Stamkos is pretty much untouchable especially to Montreal because they don't have the value to match the value of Stamkos.

When it comes to PK i think those who are worrying should take a page from Price's book and just chill. Relax. I'm not a big fan of the guy, but i got to admit that i feel kinda sorry for Subban. He came into the NHL expecting to be a superstar from game 1. He's pretty much on par offensively than what everyone should expect of him but the truth is, he's a liability on defence more than most people expected. If he wasn't as hyped up as he was coming into the league and at the start of this season than i think he wouldn't be getting as much discussion as he's getting now that he's been scratched a few times. Fact of the matter is, he's just not as good right now as he was expected to be. He's only young and will be a star in this league but right now he's a rookie in the best league in the world who needs a little more time to develop his skills defensively. IMHO this is what should have been expected from a player in this stage of his career.
Pretty sure Stevie Y jumps on this deal.

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12-24-2010, 08:30 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Great One View Post
You could offer Subban, Price, and a 1st for the next 5 years for Stamkos and Yzerman would still laugh in your face. I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, but if not Stamkos is pretty much untouchable especially to Montreal because they don't have the value to match the value of Stamkos.

When it comes to PK i think those who are worrying should take a page from Price's book and just chill. Relax. I'm not a big fan of the guy, but i got to admit that i feel kinda sorry for Subban. He came into the NHL expecting to be a superstar from game 1. He's pretty much on par offensively than what everyone should expect of him but the truth is, he's a liability on defence more than most people expected. If he wasn't as hyped up as he was coming into the league and at the start of this season than i think he wouldn't be getting as much discussion as he's getting now that he's been scratched a few times. Fact of the matter is, he's just not as good right now as he was expected to be. He's only young and will be a star in this league but right now he's a rookie in the best league in the world who needs a little more time to develop his skills defensively. IMHO this is what should have been expected from a player in this stage of his career.

That would be a huge overpayment on our part. Granted a player a franchise forward is always more valuable on the trade market than a franchise goalie. But adding a potential franchise offensive-defencemen and a first rounder would be an overpayment for Stamkos? LOL.

EDIT: I am not saying Yzerman would take the deal btw. Washington could offer Ovie,Semin and Carlson for Crosby and the Penguins would likely reject it even though it would be an overpayment( not counting marketability).

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12-24-2010, 10:07 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BlackStar View Post
That would be a huge overpayment on our part. Granted a player a franchise forward is always more valuable on the trade market than a franchise goalie. But adding a potential franchise offensive-defencemen and a first rounder would be an overpayment for Stamkos? LOL.

EDIT: I am not saying Yzerman would take the deal btw. Washington could offer Ovie,Semin and Carlson for Crosby and the Penguins would likely reject it even though it would be an overpayment( not counting marketability).

I was actually exaggerating with that proposal but to be honest i don't think Yzerman would take Price, Subban and a first for Stamkos and rightfully so. Stamkos is a franchise player that is arguably top 3 in the league. Even though Price is an awesome goalie his value combined with Subban still don't match what Stamkos brings to the table. Also the 1st is always hit or miss, especially a later 1st round pick.

In saying that, Montreal probably wouldn't do that deal either because i'm sure they have alot of faith in Price and Subban which is totally understandable.

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12-24-2010, 10:21 PM
  #111
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I don't think "worry:" is the right word. We might feel impatient or exasperated. He's a rookie with very few NHL games. His talent is obvious and in time he'll cut down on his errors of omission/commission and his unnecessary altercations. Believe me, he's a valuable asset anf quite a few teams would gladly trade for him right now despite all his imperfections.

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12-24-2010, 10:29 PM
  #112
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i cant believe some posters.... PK will be just fine i would be more worried about Hamrlik or Spacek who just seem to be getting worse as the season goes on. hey jack martin get subban back in there

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12-24-2010, 10:44 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Great One View Post
You could offer Subban, Price, and a 1st for the next 5 years for Stamkos and Yzerman would still laugh in your face. I'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic, but if not Stamkos is pretty much untouchable especially to Montreal because they don't have the value to match the value of Stamkos.

When it comes to PK i think those who are worrying should take a page from Price's book and just chill. Relax. I'm not a big fan of the guy, but i got to admit that i feel kinda sorry for Subban. He came into the NHL expecting to be a superstar from game 1. He's pretty much on par offensively than what everyone should expect of him but the truth is, he's a liability on defence more than most people expected. If he wasn't as hyped up as he was coming into the league and at the start of this season than i think he wouldn't be getting as much discussion as he's getting now that he's been scratched a few times. Fact of the matter is, he's just not as good right now as he was expected to be. He's only young and will be a star in this league but right now he's a rookie in the best league in the world who needs a little more time to develop his skills defensively. IMHO this is what should have been expected from a player in this stage of his career.
The "you" Yzerman would be laughing at bears the screen name of Great One. With Stamkos plus the bloody stump of the Habs minus Price and Subban the Habs still wouldn't be serious contenders. They'd be left with Auld in goal and a collection of decrepit Dmen. Also, they wouldn't be able to rebuild without those five first rounders. Nor would they able to trade for strong supporting players to go with Stamkos. The final straw is that Stamkos would get fed up with playing with such a rotten team that he'd go UFA at the very first opportunity, not to mention that other teams (especially the Lightning, who would have 10 first rounders) would be able to give Stamkos an offer sheet as soon as he became an RFA. The folly of your proposal is so mindboggling that it would make Toronto's trade for Phil Kessel look like a stroke of genius in comparison. So, are you trying to sabotage the Habs for the next decade?


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Old
12-24-2010, 10:49 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by HabsHockey View Post
Pretty sure Stevie Y jumps on this deal.
Agree and Stamkos is one of my favorite player (so are Subban and Price, though... but FIVE 1st pick in extra? Who do you think he is to decline that offer? Brian Burke?)

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12-24-2010, 11:39 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Great One View Post
I was actually exaggerating with that proposal but to be honest i don't think Yzerman would take Price, Subban and a first for Stamkos and rightfully so. Stamkos is a franchise player that is arguably top 3 in the league. Even though Price is an awesome goalie his value combined with Subban still don't match what Stamkos brings to the table. Also the 1st is always hit or miss, especially a later 1st round pick.

In saying that, Montreal probably wouldn't do that deal either because i'm sure they have alot of faith in Price and Subban which is totally understandable.
Stevie Y would be an idiot if he even thinks twice about that deal.

You can argue what's the most important pieces of a NHL team, but it usually goes with the three #1s:
#1 Goalie.
#1 Dman.
#1 Center.

Even though goalies has lost some value because there's just so many talented ones out there fighting for just 30 jobs, it remains the most important player of any hockey team IMO. The reason why I still feel that way is because the rest of your team will need to compensate a whole lot more if they don't have a #1 goalie.
Put a franchise goalie on a team with decent forwards and Dmen ; that team will become a very good one.
Put a superstar center on a decent team, that team will remain decent.

A #1 Goalie is more important, the market value of one is irrelevant. Importance is not what dictates the value, the law of demand and supply does. There's just too many goalies available, making the market poor. But, a solid franchise keeper will still attract a good return, unless the GM gets ripped.

After goalkeeping, I believe it's a matter of opinion, but I'd certainly chose a superstar Dman over a superstar center. Surely, the marketing side of it would disagree. Everybody knows a guy like Ovechkin would sell more T-Shirts and be in more highlights than a guy like Lidstrom.
But I'm a firm believer that Defense is more important than Offense. Or perhaps I should say, Offense is easier to compensate than Defense.

It really just comes down to numbers really. You have one Goalie playing the game, you have 6 Dmen, and then 12 forwards. So it's really not surprising that the order is Goalie-Dman-Center.

Stamkos would be great, but a superstar Dman (in the making, but still) + a superstar Goalie (also in the making), is better. Add the 1st rounder and you added a cherry on top of a sunday.
I also disagree that our draft pick would be a late one. Our D squad without PK and Markov would crumble, not to mention Auld would now be our #1 Keeper.
Even with Stamkos, I feel we would miss the POs.

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12-24-2010, 11:51 PM
  #116
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Pk Subban will be the next Phaneuf.

Until he gets out of Montreal and gets his career back on track.
Keep up the quality posting.

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12-25-2010, 02:59 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The "you" Yzerman would be laughing at bears the screen name of Great One. With Stamkos plus the bloody stump of the Habs minus Price and Subban the Habs still wouldn't be serious contenders. They'd be left with Auld in goal and a collection of decrepit Dmen. Also, they wouldn't be able to rebuild without those five first rounders. Nor would they able to trade for strong supporting players to go with Stamkos. The final straw is that Stamkos would get fed up with playing with such a rotten team that he'd go UFA at the very first opportunity, not to mention that other teams (especially the Lightning, who would have 10 first rounders) would be able to give Stamkos an offer sheet as soon as he became an RFA. The folly of your proposal is so mindboggling that it would make Toronto's trade for Phil Kessel look like a stroke of genius in comparison. So, are you trying to sabotage the Habs for the next decade?


Well Teufelsdrek the "folly" of this whole post is the fact that if you read my comments from about a half hour before you posted this ludicrous you would realize that i was exaggerating with this proposal like i stated a few posts ago. And as i recall i even stated that Montreal wouldn't do this trade either. I completely understand that Montreal would never trade their franchise goalie, especially seeing how Auld is their other option, plus a future all star dman but i also understand that Yzerman would not even consider trading Stamkos unless a Crosby, Ovechkin or a Malkin + is going the other way. Maybe i was a little too sarcastic with my comments about Yzerman laughing in your face, but the whole point i was trying to make is that Stamkos is untouchable unless Crosby, Ovechkin or Malking are in the mix, and i'm pretty sure everyone can agree that this is just not going to happen.

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12-25-2010, 03:41 AM
  #118
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[QUOTE=Kriss E;29766414]"Put a superstar center on a decent team, that team will remain decent."


How can you say this after watching Crosby play the last few seasons including the year they won the cup as well as the way they've been playing this season? The Penguins had a decent team the year they won the cup and without Crosby there was no way they were coming out on top. Crosby is the superstar center that made this team elite compared to every other team in the league and to say that they were still only a decent team with him is ridiculous.



"A #1 Goalie is more important, the market value of one is irrelevant. Importance is not what dictates the value, the law of demand and supply does. There's just too many goalies available, making the market poor. But, a solid franchise keeper will still attract a good return, unless the GM gets ripped."


Not saying it's not important but i believe it depends on the entire team in principle. Take the Blackhawks last year for example. Even though Niemi didn't play terrible i still wouldn't consider him the #1 goalie you'd expect to win you a cup. I believe it had alot more to do with the team in front of him than it did his play in net throughout the playoffs that won them the cup.



After goalkeeping, I believe it's a matter of opinion, but I'd certainly chose a superstar Dman over a superstar center. Surely, the marketing side of it would disagree. Everybody knows a guy like Ovechkin would sell more T-Shirts and be in more highlights than a guy like Lidstrom.
But I'm a firm believer that Defense is more important than Offense. Or perhaps I should say, Offense is easier to compensate than Defense.



I don't really disagree with this statement but how can you call Subban a superstar Dman after only playing 33 games in the NHL thus far. Not to mention he has been a healthy scratch for 2 or 3 games and a liability on defence in other games he has played in this season. This was the exact point i was trying to make in another post earlier in this thread. If most fans just had to let him play his game and not hype him up to be the next superstar of the league than i think he wouldn't have half as much pressure on him as he do now and he could just play his game and develop like most high calibre NHL players do.

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12-25-2010, 08:31 AM
  #119
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Well Teufelsdrek the "folly" of this whole post is the fact that if you read my comments from about a half hour before you posted this ludicrous you would realize that i was exaggerating with this proposal like i stated a few posts ago. And as i recall i even stated that Montreal wouldn't do this trade either. I completely understand that Montreal would never trade their franchise goalie, especially seeing how Auld is their other option, plus a future all star dman but i also understand that Yzerman would not even consider trading Stamkos unless a Crosby, Ovechkin or a Malkin + is going the other way. Maybe i was a little too sarcastic with my comments about Yzerman laughing in your face, but the whole point i was trying to make is that Stamkos is untouchable unless Crosby, Ovechkin or Malking are in the mix, and i'm pretty sure everyone can agree that this is just not going to happen.
No doubt Stamkos is untouchable, so why are you wasting your time (and ours) by stating and embellishing the obvious? You wasted a lot of words in expelling hot air from the wrong opening.

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12-25-2010, 08:39 AM
  #120
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So you're happy with the way he deal with P.K. ?
Yes, next step would be to send him back to Hamilton

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12-25-2010, 10:44 AM
  #121
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How can you say this after watching Crosby play the last few seasons including the year they won the cup as well as the way they've been playing this season? The Penguins had a decent team the year they won the cup and without Crosby there was no way they were coming out on top. Crosby is the superstar center that made this team elite compared to every other team in the league and to say that they were still only a decent team with him is ridiculous.
Pittsburgh has more than just Crosby. Don't be fooled to think the rest of the team isn't good. The year they won the cup, Malkin finished the year with the most points.
Him, Crosby, Stall, Gonchar, Letang, Orpik with specialists like Gill (that we all know can be a monster in the POs), made them win. It wasn't just Crosby. Fleury only had to be good.
Also, Crosby always gets more love (probably because he's Canadian), but Malkin was the scoring leader again in the POs, not Crosby.

As well, in 07-08, when Crosby got injured for about 30Games, Malkin took over and lead that team through a solid hot streak. Let's not forget Staal's contribution either.

Pittsburgh have a good team. When they didn't have a good team, like during Crosby's rookie year, they finished 29th in the NHL.

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Not saying it's not important but i believe it depends on the entire team in principle. Take the Blackhawks last year for example. Even though Niemi didn't play terrible i still wouldn't consider him the #1 goalie you'd expect to win you a cup. I believe it had alot more to do with the team in front of him than it did his play in net throughout the playoffs that won them the cup.
I didn't say you can't win without one. The Blackhawks had Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Versteeg, Buff, Seabrook, Keith, Campbell, Bolland.
No wonder they didn't need a franchise goalie. Still, Niemi had to play some solid games for them. I know this for a fact because I washed every Blackhawks game. He stepped up at times, but was inconsistent.

But like I said, what would be your first pick, a franchise goalie, or try to find the 12 group of forwards that will help you compensate for a rather average goalie??

Look at Philly?...How many times do you think they could have won the cup in the last 15years had they had a strong keeper?..They could have been a dynasty.

Franchise goalies don't run the streets, that's why they will still attract a good return despite having a lot of decent-good goalies available.
When you have a chance to bring a guy that you are sure will take care of your net for the next 5years or more, then you jump on it. After that, you can find a way to build a winning team in front of him.

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I don't really disagree with this statement but how can you call Subban a superstar Dman after only playing 33 games in the NHL thus far. Not to mention he has been a healthy scratch for 2 or 3 games and a liability on defence in other games he has played in this season. This was the exact point i was trying to make in another post earlier in this thread. If most fans just had to let him play his game and not hype him up to be the next superstar of the league than i think he wouldn't have half as much pressure on him as he do now and he could just play his game and develop like most high calibre NHL players do.
I said PK (and Price) were superstars in the marking. You don't need to see them play more to know just how good and dominant they will be. That's why Gauthier chose Price over Halak and didn't hesitate for a second about it.
With some players, you just know they will be solid. PK and Price are that type of players.

PK isn't playing bad because of pressure. He was doing some of the same mistakes in the AHL except doing those at the NHL level is more costly.
The kid is in his rookie year, he will get better and better as time progresses.

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12-25-2010, 11:24 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Pittsburgh has more than just Crosby. Don't be fooled to think the rest of the team isn't good. The year they won the cup, Malkin finished the year with the most points.
Him, Crosby, Stall, Gonchar, Letang, Orpik with specialists like Gill (that we all know can be a monster in the POs), made them win. It wasn't just Crosby. Fleury only had to be good.
Also, Crosby always gets more love (probably because he's Canadian), but Malkin was the scoring leader again in the POs, not Crosby.

As well, in 07-08, when Crosby got injured for about 30Games, Malkin took over and lead that team through a solid hot streak. Let's not forget Staal's contribution either.

Pittsburgh have a good team. When they didn't have a good team, like during Crosby's rookie year, they finished 29th in the NHL.



I didn't say you can't win without one. The Blackhawks had Kane, Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Versteeg, Buff, Seabrook, Keith, Campbell, Bolland.
No wonder they didn't need a franchise goalie. Still, Niemi had to play some solid games for them. I know this for a fact because I washed every Blackhawks game. He stepped up at times, but was inconsistent.

But like I said, what would be your first pick, a franchise goalie, or try to find the 12 group of forwards that will help you compensate for a rather average goalie??

Look at Philly?...How many times do you think they could have won the cup in the last 15years had they had a strong keeper?..They could have been a dynasty.

Franchise goalies don't run the streets, that's why they will still attract a good return despite having a lot of decent-good goalies available.
When you have a chance to bring a guy that you are sure will take care of your net for the next 5years or more, then you jump on it. After that, you can find a way to build a winning team in front of him.



I said PK (and Price) were superstars in the marking. You don't need to see them play more to know just how good and dominant they will be. That's why Gauthier chose Price over Halak and didn't hesitate for a second about it.
With some players, you just know they will be solid. PK and Price are that type of players.

PK isn't playing bad because of pressure. He was doing some of the same mistakes in the AHL except doing those at the NHL level is more costly.
The kid is in his rookie year, he will get better and better as time progresses.

I'm not saying Pittsburgh didn't have a good team without Crosby. The point i was trying to make is that they did have a good team without him but with Crosby in the lineup they become a great team. You mentioned earlier that a decent team with a superstar center is still just a decent team. I'm just saying this is not the case in every situation such as in Pittsburgh or Anaheim for that matter.

Also i don't think you understood my comments about Pk. I wasn't saying he was playing bad because of pressure at all. I just think that if the kid wasn't overhyped to be better than what he has been playing then fans wouldn't be spending so much time worrying about his progress or making such a big deal about him being scratched. He's a 21 year old rookie, fans should have been expecting him to have some ups and downs and probably should have even expected a scattered healthy scratch instead of expecting him to be a superstar in the league right off the hop.

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12-25-2010, 11:48 AM
  #123
mikeg
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Originally Posted by knuck View Post
This thread is not stupid at all. It was well written by OP and discussed seriously by everyone else
FACT - PK SUbban has played 47 career NHL games
FACT - PK Subban is a rookie
FACT - PK Subban is 21 years old
FACT - PK Subban has won squat as a pro athlete
FACT - PK Subban was a mid second round draft pick
SPECULATIVE FACT - PK Subban's only goal should be to please his coach. Why? Because he is a freaking rookie.
FACT - PK Subban is not Bobby Orr
FACT - PK Subban is just a kid, trying to earn his way into a full time starting role on a professional hockey club.

Posting hypothetical threads about when we start to worry is time wasting irrational self-indulgence; it serves no good other than to possibly cement an idiotic train of thought (or on these boards something called "debate") that will be picked up by the general mass that giving up and trading him might be a smart move.

The best thing we can all do for PK is to stop talking about PK. Let him develop without putting this ridiculous load on his shoulders to be the player we all know he can be before he is actually ready to be it.

In other words, let him learn how to be a pro first before judging and speculating about him as a pro.

merry christmas

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12-25-2010, 12:01 PM
  #124
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Old
12-25-2010, 06:24 PM
  #125
Galchenyuk27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg View Post
FACT - PK SUbban has played 47 career NHL games
FACT - PK Subban is a rookie
FACT - PK Subban is 21 years old
FACT - PK Subban has won squat as a pro athlete
FACT - PK Subban was a mid second round draft pick
SPECULATIVE FACT - PK Subban's only goal should be to please his coach. Why? Because he is a freaking rookie.
FACT - PK Subban is not Bobby Orr
FACT - PK Subban is just a kid, trying to earn his way into a full time starting role on a professional hockey club.

Posting hypothetical threads about when we start to worry is time wasting irrational self-indulgence; it serves no good other than to possibly cement an idiotic train of thought (or on these boards something called "debate") that will be picked up by the general mass that giving up and trading him might be a smart move.

The best thing we can all do for PK is to stop talking about PK. Let him develop without putting this ridiculous load on his shoulders to be the player we all know he can be before he is actually ready to be it.

In other words, let him learn how to be a pro first before judging and speculating about him as a pro.

merry christmas
Even if we are discussing a situation that at this point is purely hypothetical and nothing else, this is a message board. In which we discuss things. I don't know why you have such an issue with a mere discussion of something, although nobody, including myself, the threadstarter, is suggesting that PK Subban is no good and it's time to move on.

You're acting like he's reading these message boards and we're helping ruin his confidence by even discussing it.

I'm sorry you disapprove of the thread, but if that is so, then you also don't have to read it.

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