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Crosby's defensive play

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:06 AM
  #51
hatterson
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I don't have access to zone by zone faceoff numbers so I can't comment on that.

(Edit: I assumed you meant Eric Staal, Mike Richards and Mikko Koivu)

But what I can say is that Eric Staal and Mike Richards are below 50%. Koivu is at 53.5, which is good. Crosby is at 55.8, Datsyuk is 56.2%, Kesler is 58.6

Takeways is really the only stat that Crosby doesn't have numbers up with the others.

Hits he's near the bottom of those five (only beats Koivu) but still in the pack

Blocked shots he's only behind Kesler and Richards which is significant because centers usually don't have large shot block numbers without playing significant SH time.

SH time he's at the bottom but that's already been explained. None of the others you mentioned are forced to carry so much offensive load in ice time so they have more PK time available.

SHG he's got 1, only Richards has 2. Which is good considering he doesn't play as much short handed as the others.

Production per ice time he blows the others out of the water. He's at 12:44 played per point. Datsyuk is 16:29 and the rest are above 21 minutes (Koivu is almost 24 minutes)

So by your metrics he's middle/upper of the pack in 4 of the 8 categories and the blow away leader in 1.

So defensively alone he's at least comparable to most of the guys you mentioned and offensively he blows them out of the water.

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:12 AM
  #52
IcedCapp
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Also, I know we don't put too much stock into +/- around here, but he can't be worthless defensively AND lead the league (1st for forwards, tied overall) in +/-, can he?

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12-29-2010, 10:13 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Also, I know we don't put too much stock into +/- around here, but he can't be worthless defensively AND lead the league (1st for forwards, tied overall) in +/-, can he?
he actually could be

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Old
12-29-2010, 10:13 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrskudra1 View Post
Some games during this streak he hasnt played to his capability in the defensive zone, but that doesnt change the fact when he wants to play D he's one of the best if not the best two way players in the league
Exactly. And who cares, the Penguins D is great and as long as he is scoring at will he should be playing with an offensive bias.

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12-29-2010, 10:15 AM
  #55
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Why is the best two-way forward measured solely by defense? Wouldn't that be best defensive forward? Offense is one of those two ways that makes up that term two-way forward.

Anyway, he is a very good defensive forward at this point in his career. He doesn't kill penalties all the time because the Pens don't need him to. We need him more at even strength and on the power play because he is the best offensive player in the league.

I would easily call him top 2 along with Datsyuk for 'two-way' forwards. Datsyuk is the only guy I would say might have a bigger edge defensively than Crosby has offensively.

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12-29-2010, 10:26 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Why is the best two-way forward measured solely by defense? Wouldn't that be best defensive forward? Offense is one of those two ways that makes up that term two-way forward.

Anyway, he is a very good defensive forward at this point in his career. He doesn't kill penalties all the time because the Pens don't need him to. We need him more at even strength and on the power play because he is the best offensive player in the league.

I would easily call him top 2 along with Datsyuk for 'two-way' forwards. Datsyuk is the only guy I would say might have a bigger edge defensively than Crosby has offensively.
That's why I asked him what metric he uses to compare better defense with better offense.

If I'm 90/100 offense and 90/100 defense am I the same two way as the guy who is 95/100 defense and 85/100 offense (or vise versa)?

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12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
  #57
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It would be a lie to say that Crosby doesn't take public skate laps in the defensive zone from time to time. He's not a Selke winner. As far as number one centers go, he's well above average in defensive diligence, and he's not afraid to block shots, but he he glides around sometimes.

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12-29-2010, 10:31 AM
  #58
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Open for business, but probably not for long knowing you guys.

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Old
12-29-2010, 11:01 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Dupuis also credits Crosby for the team's top-notch defense.

Although Crosby has been busy making opposing defenses look bad all season, he hardly ignores his responsibilities in Penguins' territory.

Crosby's hard work defensively seems to rub off on his teammates.

"When you see your point leader battling hard in his own zone," Dupuis said, "and winning battles, and blocking shots and winning faceoffs, it makes you work harder."
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...rce=rss&feed=8

Quote:
“But we depend on him to play against other team’s best lines. We depend on him to play in penalty kill situations. We depend on him for faceoffs. It’s playing all over the ice, and he’s doing it against the other team’s top lines. So there’s a lot to his game and a lot of detail to his game, with and without the puck.” - Dan Bylsma
Quote:
"Twenty or 25 years ago, (Bryan) Trottier was that kind of two-way player. He was one of my idols. He was killing penalties, winning draws and he was strong as an ox. As a manager, I feel very comfortable when Crosby's on the ice in our zone. He plays 200 feet, every inch of the ice. He can knock somebody off the puck and start the rush." --- Pittsburgh GM Ray Shero (Sun Media)
http://penguins.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=545872

Quote:
“Here we have one of the best players in our game, a young guy just driven to get better and be good in all areas,” Yzerman said on Tuesday at the NHL Board of Governors meeting in Palm Beach, Fla. “He's so important because he can play in all situations. He can score the goal, he can set up the goal, he can win the faceoff, he’ll block the shot—how valuable is that?”
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=344589


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 12-29-2010 at 11:08 AM.
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Old
12-29-2010, 11:05 AM
  #60
Saku11
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Deyr sayin what theyre supposta say

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Old
12-29-2010, 11:13 AM
  #61
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So then this is like the last game against Atlanta where he stepped off the ice for a line change and everyone thought he was cherry picking for a breakaway. Cool beans.

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Old
12-29-2010, 11:19 AM
  #62
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Crosby is extremely responsible defensively, I really don't know how one could even come close the conclusion that he floats or cherry picks by actually watching the games. He's a great player down low. Yeah, he's not gonna win the Selke, yet at least, but he's still very capable in his own zone and he plays well in his own zone.

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Old
12-29-2010, 11:26 AM
  #63
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Crosby's a responsible player. Not Kesler, Datsyuk, Zajac responsible, but much in the same way that Toews or Parise is responsible.

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Old
12-29-2010, 11:44 AM
  #64
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Does it really matter? He owns everyone else with his offense skills.

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12-29-2010, 11:57 AM
  #65
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Question for whoever said Datsyuk was the only one capable of playing Selke caliber defense and scoring 100+ points (sorry, quote isn't working for me).

Why is it assumed that Crosby would lose so much production when trying to become more of a force on defense, but that Datsyuk would lose none of his effectiveness in the D zone while increasing his scoring output? (I realize he has hit 97 points a few times so it isn't that big of a difference, but still).

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Old
12-29-2010, 11:59 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkmanx View Post
Datsyuk
Kesler
Staal
Koivu
Richards

no specific order.

I use defensive stats to define my picks. I've watched Crosby be shut down twice in the SCF by Zetterberg which heavily helps measure my picks.
You mean from two and three years ago? Not exactly as relevant today. And since Crosby faced Zetterburg's line consistently in those SCF games, it freed up Malkin's line. You know, that guy who won a Conn Smythe in 2009.

Whether you like it or not, Crosby's line faces the oppositions best every game and Crosby does not exactly have elite wingers at his disposal. His defense is solid, not exceptional, but his offensive game this year is off the charts. What more do you want from the guy?

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12-29-2010, 12:13 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
The only player in the NHL capable of playing elite defence and getting 100+ points, is Datsyuk.

Crosby is a 120+ point player who plays average defence. He is capable of better defence, but if he applied himself defensively like Datsyuk, Zetterberg etc., he wouldn't reach 120+ points.

Datsyuk has never scored 100 points..

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12-29-2010, 12:59 PM
  #68
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There's a difference between forwards who are poor defensively, and forwards who knowingly sacrifice defense for more offensive production. Crosby is usually playing solid defense when the Pens don't have the puck, but when he isn't it is usually because of the latter of those two options, not the former.

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:00 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drag View Post
Datsyuk has never scored 100 points..
He said "capable". Someone who has scored 97 points twice is capable of scoring 100. To say otherwise would be nitpicking.

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:04 PM
  #70
ArGarBarGar
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Crosby's defense?

Good, not great. Getting better over time, however.

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12-29-2010, 01:05 PM
  #71
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Crosby can be an elite player defensively, and has always been a very committed two way player. When watching him though, one has to realize, with the defensive pairings the way they are and how stout they have been, they give Sid much more of an opportunity to break up ice early, or maybe no come back as far as he normally would have to in the past. This was a positive of Ray Shero signing the defensemen he did this past offseason that many of the "OMG THEY DIDN'T SIGN WINGERZZ!!!1!" crowd didn't take into consideration.

In the beginning of the season when the Pens has defensemen dropping left and right, it was then many people thought Sid very well might win a Selke this year. That's how good his defensive play was. Since everyone has become healthy, he has the opportunity to maybe hang up ice a little more an take advantage of the turnovers this defense creates and their ability to transition the puck quickly.

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12-29-2010, 01:14 PM
  #72
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So Crosby needs to win the Selke now?
Is that what's left to criticize him?

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:27 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by invictus View Post
Question for whoever said Datsyuk was the only one capable of playing Selke caliber defense and scoring 100+ points (sorry, quote isn't working for me).

Why is it assumed that Crosby would lose so much production when trying to become more of a force on defense, but that Datsyuk would lose none of his effectiveness in the D zone while increasing his scoring output? (I realize he has hit 97 points a few times so it isn't that big of a difference, but still).
You basically explained it yourself. Datsyuk has already come extremely close twice. If Datsyuk focused more on offense, and less on backchecking, he would score at a higher rate. I don't think that is too much of a radical opinion

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:28 PM
  #74
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Crosby is the best defensive forward on the pens; if Bylsma said to Crosby before a playoff series I want you to take so and so out of the series and Malkin and Staal will provide the offense he could do it to a tee.

His defensive awareness is off the charts, and he wins more battles behind our net then any player on our team, including dmen. He doesn't cheat, which I feel is a fault because I would take Crosby cheating up ice for odd man rushes versus the Crosby who cleans up his own zone while Pascal Dupuis is in happy happy land anyday.

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Old
12-29-2010, 01:34 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
You basically explained it yourself. Datsyuk has already come extremely close twice. If Datsyuk focused more on offense, and less on backchecking, he would score at a higher rate. I don't think that is too much of a radical opinion
Crosby also can lose a large amount of offense and still get to 100 points. He can drop about 15% from his last few years offense and still be at 100.

So he'd likely lose some, but I think it's far form a foregone conclusion that he'd drop enough to not have him in triple digits.

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