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Is John Scott the best P4P fighter in the NHL?

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Old
12-30-2010, 05:01 AM
  #51
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Deryk Engelland

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Old
12-30-2010, 11:35 AM
  #52
Ensane
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Originally Posted by mustache feeling View Post
And where, if all things were equal, has Scott proved his isnt P4P the best?
With such a small sample size, your standard is ridiculously hard to meet.

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Just saying he isnt obviously isnt enough. Where and what are his flaws when, yet again, he has proven atm he has none?
Maybe he is, maybe he's not, but he hasn't done enough to prove that in my mind he's anything more than a good fighter who is a product of his size. Hats off to him, since size isn't everything--otherwise Steve McKenna would have been heavyweight champion in the 90s.

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Always willing to debate, but would like more then speculation and conjecture to back up what Scott has done not to be considered P4P best.
Well that's what you're going to get, especially for someone like Scott who hasn't fought enough to justify some of the leaps in logic you're proposing here. So if you're not willing to debate the specuation and conjecture, what are you left with? Seems like you're just looking for self-confirmation, amirite?

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Both easy wins, the second one Scott with 17 punches that connected to Kocis 5.

Now, how is that not destroying somebody?
Easily winning and destroying are not tantamount. He's destroyed a few guys this year, Westgarth and Stortini of the top of my mind, but he did not destroy Koci.

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12-30-2010, 12:14 PM
  #53
Mr. Canucklehead
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John Scott may be the toughest heavy in the league right now, really don't know.

Best P4P before this season for me would have gone to Rypien. This season, Engelland has taken that title. For me, "Best P4P" means that all things being equal, including size, and just based on fighting skill--who is the best figther. Engelland has certainly had a heck of a year in this respect.

Scott has a tremendous natural advantage, that being his size. If he's Rypien or Engelland's size, does he still win? I don't know. Conjecture, and speculation, sure--but you also can't really argue the opposite.

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12-30-2010, 12:14 PM
  #54
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I'm pretty sure P4P is used more for smaller guys, who can beat bigger guys.

Not towering heavy guys that can outreach anyone else, big or small.

This thread is way off.

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Old
12-30-2010, 12:15 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by mustache feeling View Post
Wrong. Scott destroyed Koci. He also rag dolled Janssens the first time they fought this year, smiling when Janssens hit him in the face. Last nights game was still a Scott win even with Cam dropping two bombs that didnt do anything but make Scott mad.

Many of whom were not fighters. He lost to Eager last year and was beat down by Staubitz this year, hardly heavies.I can say Scott would beat both easily.And it has very little to do with size, Scott just a better fighter with an iron chin.




It does on account of Scott has not lost yet in the NHL.

His size and reach shouldnt be use against him just to nit pick a title onto certain fanbases tough guys.

Anderson Silva is the best P4P fighter in MMA, make him bigger or smaller and he dominates any weight division he is in.BJS is no different.
OK So maybe I'll put this a way you can understand
Deryk Engelland Height 6.02 -- Weight 202 = Anderson Silva @ light heavyweight
John Scott 6.08 -- Weight 258 = Brock Lesnor @ Heavyweight
Do you really think a 205lb Silva would have a chance vs a 260lb Lesnor? Now if Lesnor dropped 55lbs Silva would pick him apart because he is arguably the best pound for pound fighter in MMA
You might have an argument if Scott has fought and won vs. a player that he stacks up to POUND FOR POUND....IE Boogarde or MacIntyre. But he fights guys 6" smaller, and 40 pounds lighter.
Simply put - John Scott is a heavy Weight who hasnt fought another true heavyweight yet

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Old
12-30-2010, 01:06 PM
  #56
stevecanuck16
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This guy clearly has no idea what P4P means. It means, pound for pound. Not pound as in hit, but pound as in the unit of weight. It means toughest relative to their size. That's why you would always hear that "pound for pound, Tie Domi is the toughest in the NHL" even though guys like Probert were always tougher than Domi. It was his size that made him remarkable.

John Scott is the opposite, actually. He's been an enforcer for 2 seasons and has yet to fight a single top-10 heavyweight, despite being 6'8" and 260 lbs. He's avoided fighting Orr, Boogaard, MacIntyre, Belak, Godard, Gillies, and the like. If he did, I don't think he would be undefeated. He's a second tier fighter with giant size. Again, the opposite of "pound for pound," as he isn't "top 10 heavyweight tough" but he is "top 10 heavyweight size." Therefore, his toughness is pretty low in comparison to his size, and therefore he is far from the best "pound for pound." Because that's what pound for pound means.

If you're 6'8" and a heavyweight and the toughest guys on your card are young Westgarth and miniature Janssen, you're not pound for pound tough at all.

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12-30-2010, 01:25 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ensane View Post
No one's arguing it's not exceptional. He's likely the consensus top heavyweight in the league at the moment.
I disagree here. I would say the consenus top heavyweights at this time are MacIntyre, Boogard, and Godard. (In no particular order).

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12-30-2010, 01:37 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Puritania View Post
I disagree here. I would say the consenus top heavyweights at this time are MacIntyre, Boogard, and Godard. (In no particular order).
Fair enough. I haven't followed the fight game quite as closely as I used to and I probably let his flashy wins this year cloud my judgment instead of doing my due dilligence and looking at fight cards.

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12-30-2010, 01:49 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensane View Post
Fair enough. I haven't followed the fight game quite as closely as I used to and I probably let his flashy wins this year cloud my judgment instead of doing my due dilligence and looking at fight cards.
No worries, I'd just hate to see him get that distinction without actually fighting any of the top heavies in the league.

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12-30-2010, 02:10 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecanuck16 View Post
This guy clearly has no idea what P4P means. It means, pound for pound. Not pound as in hit, but pound as in the unit of weight. It means toughest relative to their size. That's why you would always hear that "pound for pound, Tie Domi is the toughest in the NHL" even though guys like Probert were always tougher than Domi. It was his size that made him remarkable.

John Scott is the opposite, actually. He's been an enforcer for 2 seasons and has yet to fight a single top-10 heavyweight, despite being 6'8" and 260 lbs. He's avoided fighting Orr, Boogaard, MacIntyre, Belak, Godard, Gillies, and the like. If he did, I don't think he would be undefeated. He's a second tier fighter with giant size. Again, the opposite of "pound for pound," as he isn't "top 10 heavyweight tough" but he is "top 10 heavyweight size." Therefore, his toughness is pretty low in comparison to his size, and therefore he is far from the best "pound for pound." Because that's what pound for pound means.

If you're 6'8" and a heavyweight and the toughest guys on your card are young Westgarth and miniature Janssen, you're not pound for pound tough at all.
Exactly. He has two wins against Stortini. Why? Because Renney didn't feel he needed to dress MacIntyre against Scott.

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Old
12-30-2010, 02:12 PM
  #61
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This thread is ******** John Scott has yet to fight a legit top 10 HW in the NHL.

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Old
12-30-2010, 05:47 PM
  #62
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I agree with a lot of people about Engelland being top P4P. I don't remember him fighting this much when he was with Hershey in the AHL.

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Old
12-30-2010, 06:45 PM
  #63
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I'm a big Chicago fan, and a Scott fan, and even I think this thread is bordering on "trolling".

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12-30-2010, 07:49 PM
  #64
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You do realize Scott is 6'8 260 lbs

Scott got a very narrow victory over Cam Janssen. A guy that is 6'0 210 lbs. That says a lot more for Cam being the best P4P fighter then Scott if you really think he is the best heavyweight fighter.

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Old
12-30-2010, 08:52 PM
  #65
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Um no, in terms of fighting hes a little better than Chara. Uses his reach advantage to his advantage.

Engelland is not either, but he is impressive. He dropped Orr, another overrated fighter. Until he drops Boulton, Big Mac, etc he's just going to be a heck of a MW.

I'd take Bam Bam over Engelland any day for pfp. Giving up 2 inches and has provin to hang with the best of them in multiple nhl seasons not just one cinderella season.

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12-30-2010, 10:21 PM
  #66
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Scott needs to fight a legitimate heavyweight to deserve the credit he has acquired (from some)... once he goes toe-to-toe with MacIntyre or Boogaard, and at least holds his own, he can be included in a conversation about the top heavies in the league. Until then, well...

In terms of pound-for-pound (a concept lost upon the creator of this thread) Rypien, Engelland, even Tootoo, are more deserved of pound-for-pound acclaim. Heck, if pound-for-pound is used as a premise for the argument there are a lot of players tougher than Scott (and likely, tougher than most of the top heavyweights - because most of them win because they are massive).

Actually Godard is listed as 'only' 225lbs... so in terms of heavyweights at least, he is pound-for-pound far-and-away the best. He has dropped both MacIntytre and Boogaard, and he was giving up 40lbs +.

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12-30-2010, 11:46 PM
  #67
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I'm pretty sure last season Laraque said the best P4P guys were Cote(retired) and Chris Neil.

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12-31-2010, 01:14 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
You do realize Scott is 6'8 260 lbs

Scott got a very narrow victory over Cam Janssen. A guy that is 6'0 210 lbs. That says a lot more for Cam being the best P4P fighter then Scott if you really think he is the best heavyweight fighter.
Agree! I think Scott's problem is he is not mean. It's like he fights because it is job while guys like Janssen seem to enjoy doing it.
What is scary about Scott though is I thought CJ was actually getting the better of Scott early on in the bout and then then it happened. Scott got labeled right in the jaw by a full blown punch. ... His head didn't even bend back, he just looked at CJ as if to say "now you've done it" and Scott was the better fighter from that point on.

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01-01-2011, 08:38 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by mustache feeling View Post
He hasnt lost a fight yet.

How is that not exceptional? He has beaten people up to the point that he toys with fighters now.
Because of his size, not skill.

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How would this change if he was smaller when nobody knows if he would even be in the NHL as a mid sized goon?
This is an excellent point. He hasn't shown any type of skill (IMO) that would suggest that he would be winning fights if he was Rypiens size. As you said, he probably wouldn't even make the league at a different size.

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What many of you have to understand is BJS is what he is, and there isnt some magic ray that can shrink him. There isnt a better figter in the NHL atm, hense the P4P title.
If you just posted "John Scott is the best fighter in the league" then I might not have even posted in the thread. P4P suggests that he's got skill that will transpose size.

It's an entirely unprovable argument, but you're the one that started the thread, so it's up to you to invent a magic shrink ray in order to win the debate. Just be sure to also invent magic un-shrink ray so that you can turn John Scott back into a size freak once he starts getting crushed by NHL featherweights.

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01-01-2011, 07:39 PM
  #70
Rusty Shackleford
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When we see Scott fight Boogard, McIntyre, Orr, Godard or Engelland.. We'll see if he's P4P.

Scott is long, but he sorta looks awkward when he throws.. I'm rather certain that Boogard would break his face, and you can quote me on that for future reference.

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Old
01-01-2011, 07:51 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
You do realize Scott is 6'8 260 lbs

Scott got a very narrow victory over Cam Janssen. A guy that is 6'0 210 lbs. That says a lot more for Cam being the best P4P fighter then Scott if you really think he is the best heavyweight fighter.
I would agree with the statement above. I would further argue that Rypien in fact had a more decisive victory over Janssen than John Scott did (Janssen being bloodied and all).

In my view, there are a number of fighters who, pound for pound, are far better fighters than John Scott. Janssen and Rypien being two of them.

GB

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Old
01-02-2011, 01:59 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by mustache feeling View Post
After reading some of the threads here, it seems P4P is something thrown around alot when it comes to Rick Rypien.

After Rypien got beat down earlier this year, and the whole fan assault thing, the luster has seemed to faded upon poor Rick.

Enter the nu model- Big John Scott.

As a fighter, nobody with the exception of Boogy has the size/reach combo to go along with the heavy fists BJS has. His chin, if questioned before was tested yesterday with a huge bomb by Janssens, and passed with flying colors.

So far he is undefeated in the NHL, and I give mad props to anybody who can draw him or actually drop the gloves with him. Has he fought true heavies? He will soon enough, but Rypien stayed away from heavies his entire career until this year and was pounced on mercilessly when he did. This wont be the case with Scott.

I have no choice by to say P4P, BJS is the best.

This thread has to be a joke, there is just no way that someone could believe that John Scott is the best p4p fighter in the league, he's not even the best fighter in the league. I'm a fan of Scott's but until he picks up some wins against guys like McIntyre, Boogard, Orr, and the rest of the top heavies in the league he won't be viewed by many as a top 3 heavyweight. He is a huge guy with no losses yet in the NHL but a relatively weak fight card.

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01-02-2011, 02:22 PM
  #73
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You guys should stop feeding the troll.

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Old
01-02-2011, 02:22 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by straka91 View Post
Um no, in terms of fighting hes a little better than Chara. Uses his reach advantage to his advantage.

Engelland is not either, but he is impressive. He dropped Orr, another overrated fighter. Until he drops Boulton, Big Mac, etc he's just going to be a heck of a MW.

I'd take Bam Bam over Engelland any day for pfp. Giving up 2 inches and has provin to hang with the best of them in multiple nhl seasons not just one cinderella season.
I would have to say that you know as much about fighting as Martin Straka. Engelland a middle weight ? Your serious ?

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Old
01-19-2011, 12:13 AM
  #75
GeeoffBrown
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I think that the NHL heavyweights would actually be better p4p than the middleweights. This is simply because the average middleweight spends more time working on hockey skills, while the average heavyweight works on fighting skills. Therefore, the average heavyweight fighter has a higher skill level.

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