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Sergei Gaiduchenko to play for Ukraine?

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Old
01-20-2011, 04:10 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yunost View Post
Im not familiar with Ukrainian hockey, and am not referring to anyone in specific. Just pointing out the fact that its not like Russia steals them away and forces them to convert, as it almost sounds like in some of your posts.
They do steal them. They are forced to apply for Russian passports in order to play hockey in Russia. No other country in the IIHF enforces such a policy. It's straight up poaching.


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Originally Posted by yunost View Post
And either way, for example if a kid moves to Canada at an early age, gets a passport, lives like a Canadian, and gets a chance to play for the national team, wouldnt that make sense? Or in your case he should refuse and go back to his country of origin just because he was born there?
The case of Ukrainians in Russia is not much different.
Well many said Wolski should have played for Poland...but he never actually played hockey in Poland. The instances we are referring to here, these kids learned how to play hockey in Ukraine and usually move to Russia at age 14-15, once they have been scouted.

A more accurate example would be that of American players who cross the border to play in the CHL in their junior years and get drafted - they aren't made to apply for Canadian citizenship, play for Team Canada, etc.

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01-20-2011, 10:48 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
They do steal them. They are forced to apply for Russian passports in order to play hockey in Russia. No other country in the IIHF enforces such a policy. It's straight up poaching.
Could you give us some links to back up your claims because I don't think you are right (though I could be wrong myself). Ukrainians are forced to obtain Russian passport in order to avoid being classified as foreigners in Russia(KHL) and if they want to play for Russian clubs they have to be either so good that clubs are willing to use a foreigner roster spot on them or become Russian citizens. I simply refuse to believe there is rule which force Ukrainians become Russians as soon they cross the border.

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01-20-2011, 12:52 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
They do steal them. They are forced to apply for Russian passports in order to play hockey in Russia. No other country in the IIHF enforces such a policy. It's straight up poaching.
I remember hearing that this was the case at one point, but I don't think it is anymore. I think many Ukrainians, as ozo said, apply for a Russian passport because it makes it easier for their development. I honestly think that when Ukraine gets a KHL team we will start to see a resurgence in their hockey program. They have a very large population and could definately still field a good national team if their best players weren't playing in Russia. HC Budivelnyk should keep all of their talent from defecting to Russia and will allow some ethnic Ukrainians to return and play for Ukraine internationally.

I like what the KHL is doing for hockey in Eastern Europe (although I hate that some NHL calibur players choose to player there ). I hope that we will see the development in countries like Kazakhstan, Belarus, Latvia and Ukraine improve and see stronger international competition.

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01-21-2011, 12:14 AM
  #29
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Speaking of hockey development in Ukraine, in the 100th anniversary of hockey in Ukraine it appears everything is going wrong.

http://hockey.sport.ua/news/114810 (Russian)
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...GdNtaogTkMR4Fg

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Hockey players from the Falcon, which constitute the backbone of the Ukrainian team, wrote an open letter to the President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych, the Prime Minister Mykola Azarov, Minister of Family, Youth and Sports Ravil Safiullin, president of the Hockey Federation of Ukraine Anatoly Brezvinu to take measures to rescue the most titled country club – Sokol Kiev…

Today is the best club in the country is going through a difficult period in terms of financial viability…

We have to admit that now HC "Falcon" is on the verge of collapse…
If there isn’t a KHL team next year in Ukraine and Sokol cannot continue to play, Hockey will be dead in that country 2-3 years.

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01-22-2011, 07:44 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Speaking of hockey development in Ukraine, in the 100th anniversary of hockey in Ukraine it appears everything is going wrong.

http://hockey.sport.ua/news/114810 (Russian)
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...GdNtaogTkMR4Fg


If there isn’t a KHL team next year in Ukraine and Sokol cannot continue to play, Hockey will be dead in that country 2-3 years.
That's disappointing. Hopefully someone rescues the team and either Sokol or HC Budivelnyk joins the KHL.

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01-23-2011, 01:40 AM
  #31
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they definately need FEMEN involved...after one of those displays, we'll see a KHL team for sure

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01-23-2011, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yunost View Post
they definately need FEMEN involved...after one of those displays, we'll see a KHL team for sure
Femen is really good at raising more than just awareness

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01-23-2011, 05:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
Could you give us some links to back up your claims because I don't think you are right (though I could be wrong myself). Ukrainians are forced to obtain Russian passport in order to avoid being classified as foreigners in Russia(KHL) and if they want to play for Russian clubs they have to be either so good that clubs are willing to use a foreigner roster spot on them or become Russian citizens. I simply refuse to believe there is rule which force Ukrainians become Russians as soon they cross the border.
well off the top of my head I remember Zherdev explaining this was the case when he went to play in Elektrostal originally, he HAD to get a Russian passport to play in Russia

perhaps you're right about the foreigner spot for V-League teams...are Russian teams allowed foreigners? If not then this would be a clever loop hole, "you're a foreigner and under league rules you can't play here, but if you accept one of our free passports you can now play here"

so i guess its either circumvention of league rules vs. something more sinister.

ponikarovsky and antropov both were given russian passports when they played for Dynamo...hmm..

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01-23-2011, 05:03 PM
  #34
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Femen is really good at raising more than just awareness
ding!

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01-23-2011, 07:53 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
well off the top of my head I remember Zherdev explaining this was the case when he went to play in Elektrostal originally, he HAD to get a Russian passport to play in Russia

perhaps you're right about the foreigner spot for V-League teams...are Russian teams allowed foreigners? If not then this would be a clever loop hole, "you're a foreigner and under league rules you can't play here, but if you accept one of our free passports you can now play here"

so i guess its either circumvention of league rules vs. something more sinister.

ponikarovsky and antropov both were given russian passports when they played for Dynamo...hmm..
Both Ponikarovsky and Antropov represent their countries of birth though. Neither have ever represented Russia in International competition. I don't know if Poni will ever represent Ukraine in the future, but I'd be shocked if Antro wasn't playing for Kazakhstan next time they're up in the WC.

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01-24-2011, 03:12 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
ponikarovsky and antropov both were given russian passports when they played for Dynamo...hmm..
In the case of Antropov, he played in Kazakhstan until he was 18 and then transferred to Dynamo. When a player transfers makes a huge difference, at 18 he would have went through the youth system of Kazakhstan making it harder to switch nations even with a Russian passport.

As for Ponikarovsky, I believe he came to Russia earlier and never played with any Ukrainian or Russian youth team. My guess is he would have been happy never to play internationally but because Ukraine made the Olympics in 2002 he thought why not everyone else is playing in the Olympics. He never had a chance for Russia at that time

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01-24-2011, 08:26 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
"you're a foreigner and under league rules you can't play here, but if you accept one of our free passports you can now play here"

ponikarovsky and antropov both were given russian passports when they played for Dynamo...hmm..
I think you should take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I don't think Russian clubs needs Ukrainian players as much as Ukrainian players need Russian clubs. No one forces them to go eastwards where stricter foreigner policies exists which force them circumvent rules and obtain Russian passports. But playing in Russia is the simplest and sanest path for young Ukrainian players if they wish to pursue career in pro hockey. As sad as it is but they probably realize in how deep hole Ukrainian hockey and national team are and thus they don't feel they are missing out on Olympic games or other best-of-best tournaments.

Ponikarovsky's and Antropov's case proves how inconsistent Russian hockey has been with this foreigner rules. I've heard similiar things about Andrei Mezin. In most countries (for example Germany) if foreigner obtains a German passport he is no longer considered foreigner no matter what (in most cases they are Canadian players who aren't be considered candidates for NT spot). But in Russia they force potential player not only to obtain citizenship but to stop playing for your first country also in order to be considered a true local hockey player and unlike in my Germany's example this rule concerns closest neighbour countries such as Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan and these countries feel the loss of every single occasion. Though the this rule hasn't been carried out with any real consistency over the years so there many cases like ones you mentioned where players have continued to be dual citizens and Nt players for their respective countries.

Sokil, I understand your pain and position completely, but I kinda understand the position of Russian hockey authorities too. They understand that it isn't very hard to obtain Russian citizenship and this process of gaining another passport is a circumvention of rules and is damaging their own hockey programme. There are many so called Russian citizens that haven't actually seen their Russian passport for once in their lifetime. What feels unfair from your side of things looks equally unfair from Russian point of view.

I hope that Kyiv will eventually get their KHL team as they could bring home many of these dual passport owners to their NT and if this team becomes a success story and it creates some hockey buzz in Ukraine after 20 years of being in coma. I don't know how devoted you are, but maybe if you understand Russian language you should research whether inception of KHL team in Astana have made some impact on their NT roster already and is there any case of dual citizen returning to Kazakh NT roster, in order to see if a potential franchise could have an immediate effect on Ukrainian hockey. As much as I would like to know that myself my hands are tied because my lack of Russian language.


Last edited by ozo: 01-24-2011 at 08:35 AM. Reason: tried to tweak my rather poor English :(
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01-24-2011, 03:51 PM
  #38
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It is surprising, and sad, that a country like Ukraine cannot "keep up" in the scheme of international hockey. Look at the 1995 World jr.... they beat the USA, and kept it close (4-2) loss to Russia, and I remember that small goaltender Karpenko that suited up for them.... Plus, having guys like Fedotenko, Ponikarovksy, etc in the NHL. I do have no clue about the politics, etc. of hockey over there. As a Canadian with Ukrainian heritage - I would like to see Ukraine brought back up into the ranks. A midget minor travel team from Kiev was here at Christmas time for a tournament, and made it to the semi finals in their division. (Nik Antropov won MVP of this tournament for the Khazakhstan team that he played on as a midget or bantam back in the '90s).

Are there a lot rinks in Ukraine? I am thinking hockey is second to soccer in terms being the sport to play.... am I right?

Also - how do I go about getting a team Ukraine hockey jersey (current one on the iihf site?), or even a Ukraine track jacket (like they had in the Vancouver olympic games - I think the one figure skater was wearing one getting her marks). I have emailed their hockey federation via the IIHF, and never got a response. I have a contact on another hockey site trying to look into a jersey, but if anyone here might be able to help me, please msg me.

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01-24-2011, 06:25 PM
  #39
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Are there a lot rinks in Ukraine? I am thinking hockey is second to soccer in terms being the sport to play.... am I right?
No. We don't have enough rinks. Moreover, we don't even have a single good modern arena where Sokol could play. Last time I heard they played in a small rink in the suburbs. There were some reports about possible changes to this situation though...

As for popularity... More people definitely play basketball. Maybe even volleyball. Tough to say, I'm from the South and hardly anyone plays hockey there.

Still, I get the feeling that hockey is not enough popular in Ukraine but obviously things may change

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01-25-2011, 06:45 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
Got to start somewhere, getting a young goaltender to commit can help start rebuilding that program. Kiev also might have a KHL team next year, so that would turn that program around in a hurry I think. There are plenty of hockey players born in Kiev, if they had a professional set up in their own city more young players would play for Ukraine
You just have a too optimistic view of things.

I live in Kiev and is actually a product of Sokol youth system.

Sokol doesn't have its own rink nor the sport of ice-hockey is being fed money like for example football is.

There are indeed plenty of hockey players born in Kiev, but they choose Russia - that's where the money, fame at the international level, and development as a player to be had.

I see a total collapse of ukrainian youth hockey system within 3-5 years, because neither money nor intention or desire is being put into it.
The talented 16 year olds travel to Canada or Russia if they want to pursue their careers in hockey. This place is like a dead land for them.

A friend of mine is sending his kid to try in the minors in Canada - if you want serious hockey development, you go where the system exists. In Ukraine they can teach you how to skate, fall, stick-handle but that's about it.
How to stay competitive is learnt in Canada and Russia.


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01-25-2011, 06:50 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
who are you referring to? it seems a vague argument on your part

Rarely are there cases of ethnic Russians being born in Kiev, never playing hockey in Ukraine, and moving to Russia for reasons other than hockey career advancement. I can't even think of an example.
Zherdev, Zhitnik, rings a bell?

If you tell Zhitnik he is ukr - well, I want to see his reaction, really

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01-25-2011, 04:39 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei DRW View Post
You just have a too optimistic view of things.

I live in Kiev and is actually a product of Sokol youth system.

Sokol doesn't have its own rink nor the sport of ice-hockey is being fed money like for example football is.

There are indeed plenty of hockey players born in Kiev, but they choose Russia - that's where the money, fame at the international level, and development as a player to be had.

I see a total collapse of ukrainian youth hockey system within 3-5 years, because neither money nor intention or desire is being put into it.
The talented 16 year olds travel to Canada or Russia if they want to pursue their careers in hockey. This place is like a dead land for them.

A friend of mine is sending his kid to try in the minors in Canada - if you want serious hockey development, you go where the system exists. In Ukraine they can teach you how to skate, fall, stick-handle but that's about it.
How to stay competitive is learnt in Canada and Russia.
I agree with everything you just said, and most of my posts have been centered around getting elite level development. Without elite player development you are correct, hockey will be dead in Ukraine in 3-5 years. A KHL club is possible, a club in Kiev was accepted for this year but had to withdraw because of the arena situation. I thought it was because the Palace of sports was to go under renovations this year? The KHL is down one club this year because of that reason.

Ukraine is a wasteland for development, but if there was elite level development in Ukraine then I don't think it is to much of a stretch to state more players would play for Ukraine and the program would turn around. If a KHL club is not possible, then yes hockey will be dead in Ukraine.

The situation is very similar to soccer in Canada 5-10 years ago, no professional clubs, players leaving Canada at 12 years old to pursue their careers, and a giant list of players that defected. Next year Canada will have three clubs in MLS, developing NT level players at home, and bringing some exposure to the sport. Canada is a small nation in international soccer and will always have players defect for larger nations or leave for better development but having options at home does benefit the sport and the national team because it will happen less.

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01-25-2011, 11:58 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by finchster View Post
I agree with everything you just said, and most of my posts have been centered around getting elite level development. Without elite player development you are correct, hockey will be dead in Ukraine in 3-5 years. A KHL club is possible, a club in Kiev was accepted for this year but had to withdraw because of the arena situation. I thought it was because the Palace of sports was to go under renovations this year? The KHL is down one club this year because of that reason.

Ukraine is a wasteland for development, but if there was elite level development in Ukraine then I don't think it is to much of a stretch to state more players would play for Ukraine and the program would turn around. If a KHL club is not possible, then yes hockey will be dead in Ukraine.

The situation is very similar to soccer in Canada 5-10 years ago, no professional clubs, players leaving Canada at 12 years old to pursue their careers, and a giant list of players that defected. Next year Canada will have three clubs in MLS, developing NT level players at home, and bringing some exposure to the sport. Canada is a small nation in international soccer and will always have players defect for larger nations or leave for better development but having options at home does benefit the sport and the national team because it will happen less.
I really hope Ukraine gets a KHL team this coming season. They have such a large population and so many potential players that it would be a shame to lose them as a hockey producing nation. I think with a KHL team and proper development program, Ukraine could be a top 10 nation one day.

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01-26-2011, 03:22 AM
  #44
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It is surprising, and sad, that a country like Ukraine cannot "keep up" in the scheme of i\ I have emailed their hockey federation via the IIHF, and never got a response. I have a contact on another hockey site trying to look into a jersey, but if anyone here might be able to help me, please msg me.
pray they make it into the WC top division or make the olympics then, because otherwise jerseys wont be produced for public consumption

I've only ever found 1 in stores, and it was from the WC, haven't seen the newer ones since they were relegated

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01-26-2011, 03:25 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Sergei DRW View Post
Zherdev, Zhitnik, rings a bell?

If you tell Zhitnik he is ukr - well, I want to see his reaction, really
what are you trying to say?

Zherdev says he is Ukrainian

Zhitnik as well, and when he was playing would return to Kiev to train in the offseason with UKR team guys; he also repped the Ukie flag when he was in the North America vs. World format allstar game

so...

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01-26-2011, 03:30 AM
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I really hope Ukraine gets a KHL team this coming season. They have such a large population and so many potential players that it would be a shame to lose them as a hockey producing nation. I think with a KHL team and proper development program, Ukraine could be a top 10 nation one day.
Absolutely

Honestly, if a messed up country like Belarus can develop a tier-1 national team, so can Ukraine given it has 5x the population

someone just needs to call up Eugene Melnyk and tell him to buy Sokil and enter them into the KHL or something...

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01-26-2011, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Absolutely

Honestly, if a messed up country like Belarus can develop a tier-1 national team, so can Ukraine given it has 5x the population

someone just needs to call up Eugene Melnyk and tell him to buy Sokil and enter them into the KHL or something...
Melnyk is the worst person to call.. he cant even take care of the senators, which have among the least loyal fanbase, for the worst reasons.

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01-27-2011, 12:09 AM
  #48
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Melnyk is the worst person to call.. he cant even take care of the senators, which have among the least loyal fanbase, for the worst reasons.
I don't see what the Sens sucking this season has to do with him as an owner. He isn't the GM or the coach, nor is he Kovalev.

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01-27-2011, 02:10 PM
  #49
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Absolutely

Honestly, if a messed up country like Belarus can develop a tier-1 national team, so can Ukraine given it has 5x the population

someone just needs to call up Eugene Melnyk and tell him to buy Sokil and enter them into the KHL or something...
I´m not sure that Belarus is such a good example, while you might call it a messed up country ,when it commes to hockey and development and especially the support it gets in the last years there they are ahead even of a high number of countries that are miles ahead even of Ukraine in most other areas of development. You can´t forget Lukašenko and his love for hockey and all the support it gets therefore (for example there are plans according to which Belarus will have 48 rinks until 2014,currently they have less than a half of that AFAIK). I don´t think hockey´s something Janukovič or anyone else with power in Ukraine would cares about, is it? Also the other part is that in Belarus hockey is the most popular sport and compared to that AFAIK in Ukraine it´s more of a minor sport when comparing to soccer for example, isn´t it?

Of course, that doesn´t mean that Ukraine can´t built a succesfull hockey programme with a good men´s national team, however to achieve that they have to work under very different conditions than the Belarussians do and I would say actually worse conditions.

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01-27-2011, 02:49 PM
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I´m not sure that Belarus is such a good example, while you might call it a messed up country ,when it commes to hockey and development and especially the support it gets in the last years there they are ahead even of a high number of countries that are miles ahead even of Ukraine in most other areas of development. You can´t forget Lukašenko and his love for hockey and all the support it gets therefore (for example there are plans according to which Belarus will have 48 rinks until 2014,currently they have less than a half of that AFAIK). I don´t think hockey´s something Janukovič or anyone else with power in Ukraine would cares about, is it? Also the other part is that in Belarus hockey is the most popular sport and compared to that AFAIK in Ukraine it´s more of a minor sport when comparing to soccer for example, isn´t it?

Of course, that doesn´t mean that Ukraine can´t built a succesfull hockey programme with a good men´s national team, however to achieve that they have to work under very different conditions than the Belarussians do and I would say actually worse conditions.
Well since Ukraine has between 45 and 50 million people, even if hockey is a minor sport the country should be able to produce at least a few KHL or NHL players every couple years with a solid development program. I think they could be a top 10 nation if they got their act together.

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