Well since Ukraine has between 45 and 50 million people, even if hockey is a minor sport the country should be able to produce at least a few KHL or NHL players every couple years with a solid development program. I think they could be a top 10 nation if they got their act together.
As I said I don´t doubt that Ukraine can create a good programme, though I disagree about the top ten, there are only so many countries that can be in the top 10 and there are actually more than 10 countries that are far ahead of Ukraine already today and many of them are progresing rather than regressing. My point was just that pointing a finger at Belarus and saying that they did it even though they might be lesser than Ukraine seems very wrong to me in hockey.
I really hate when people use that number of inhabitants argument in any hockey discussion, it just makes no sense, asides from Russia and the US all of the countries that are or have been the most competitive in the sport are countries with a relativelly small population of about 5-20 million people, so why do so many people still assume that the population matters when it commes to hockey? Or look at Latvia and Slovenia, countries with around 2 million inhabitants. And then look at Germany a country with one of the highest population amongst the hockey nations in the elite category and also one of the richest (light years ahead of Ukraine economically) and for long years they´ve barely been in the top 10 countries, though it has changed now it seems, but it took very long years. The number of population plays little to no role to being competitive in hockey.
If you want to take into account any population numbers when it commes down to hockey you might take into account the number of population playing hockey- the number of registered hockey players. What does it matter that Russia has 140 millions inhabitans when the number of hockey players there is smaller than in 10 million Sweden and Czech republic and even in 5 million Finland? Wat does it matter that the US has 300 million inhabitans, when their numbers of players is very similar to 20 million Canada? And even that might be an argument only when it commes to depth and not to the top end players. Currently Slovenia with their less than 1000 hockey players have two players playing in the NHL, which is just 2 less than for example Switzerland with totally 25 000 players. Okay, maybe I mainly mentioned the top teams in this argument, however when you look at the wekaer half of the top division how many countries with a big population do you see that are pernament members? Most of the middle od the pack are countries with a population between 2-10 million people. And even between the teams going up and down countries with big population like Italy and France are hardly any superior to Austria with their 8 million or even tiny Slovenia.
But yes, Ukraine should be able to produce at least those few NHL and KHL players every few years, however I believe they should be able to do so, because in the past they´ve already done it, because of the history of bringing up players they have, but it has nothing to do with whether Ukraine is a country with 10 million or with 45 million people, the 2nd part you mention in your 1st sentence- having a solid hockey programme- personally I think that has a 99% importance on the future of Ukrainian hockey, while their population has an importance of maybe about 1% in this whole thing.
well, the point is that Belarus is smaller than Ukraine but in a similar economic and geo-political situation....albiet poorer and run by a crazy dictator
that plus a fraction of the population and they can do a lot with hockey. Just pointing out the room for growth in Ukraine is all. Obviously net population isn't a be-all end-all indicator, but it is a measuring stick for growth.
well, the point is that Belarus is smaller than Ukraine but in a similar economic and geo-political situation....albiet poorer and run by a crazy dictator
I guess it helps that Lukashenko is also crazy about hockey
Well since Ukraine has between 45 and 50 million people, even if hockey is a minor sport the country should be able to produce at least a few KHL or NHL players every couple years with a solid development program. I think they could be a top 10 nation if they got their act together.
Impossible under current economic development.
Ice hockey is deemed "redundant" sport by the current political leadership and it is a quite expensive sport to enter especially at youth level.
All the great talents we had, they went through the soviet hockey school, now as I said, Kiev-based team "Sokol" doesn't have its own rink.
The only arena large enough to draw KHL crowds is used for freaking travelling, agriculture and other exhibitions.
not really, zherdev/babchuk are sokil school alumni who learned their game in the 90s, so post-soviet
even poni/fedo would have started in the early 90s in ukraine
only guys like tverdovsky, zhitnik,khrystych, etc. can really be called soviet-era guys
regardless though, I see your point, the playing field has changed significantly in the past 15 years and economically Ukraine will only continue to suffer/regress under the Yanukov/POR regime
not really, zherdev/babchuk are sokil school alumni who learned their game in the 90s, so post-soviet
even poni/fedo would have started in the early 90s in ukraine
only guys like tverdovsky, zhitnik,khrystych, etc. can really be called soviet-era guys
regardless though, I see your point, the playing field has changed significantly in the past 15 years and economically Ukraine will only continue to suffer/regress under the Yanukov/POR regime
It'd be nice to see Ukraine make it up to the WC after this season and somehow get Gaiduchenko, Zherdev, Babchuk, Zhitnik, Poni, Fedotenko, Tverdovsky, both Mikhnov's, etc. to play. I know it's next to impossible, but that would be great for Ukrainian hockey. Honestly, a team with all of those guys could really do quite well. If Germany can almost win bronze, then a Ukrainian team with all of those guys would have a good chance at least getting to the quarters.
Also, has Gaiduchenko answered whether or not he'll be playing with Ukraine yet? He said he'd make up his mind in the coming days, but I haven't heard anything yet.
It'd be nice to see Ukraine make it up to the WC after this season and somehow get Gaiduchenko, Zherdev, Babchuk, Zhitnik, Poni, Fedotenko, Tverdovsky, both Mikhnov's, etc. to play. I know it's next to impossible,
It's definitely impossible since half of them are not even eligible.
It's definitely impossible since half of them are not even eligible.
I'm aware. Poni, Fedotenko, Gaiduchenko and Andrei Mikhnov are all eligible though. Babchuk may be too as I don't think he's played in a IIHF, at least not in many years. Regardless, those guys would probably be enough for them to at least make the top division of WC.
Also, has Gaiduchenko answered whether or not he'll be playing with Ukraine yet? He said he'd make up his mind in the coming days, but I haven't heard anything yet.
Been looking around but no information on it yet, I guess no one will know until the world championships happen.
Babchuk may be too as I don't think he's played in a IIHF, at least not in many years.
Doesn't matter how long ago it was, Babchuk played for Russia in the IIHF U18s twice and doesn't hold Ukrainian citizenship so he'd have to spend 4 seasons living and playing in Ukraine and get his citizenship to become eligible.
Doesn't matter how long ago it was, Babchuk played for Russia in the IIHF U18s twice and doesn't hold Ukrainian citizenship so he'd have to spend 4 seasons living and playing in Ukraine and get his citizenship to become eligible.
I'm pretty sure he has Ukrainian citizenship. He was born in Ukraine and thus he's Ukrainian citizen. This matter is very complicated and there tons of loopholes but there are other examples of players holding dual Rus/Ukr citizenship/passports though it's technically impossible.
I'm not 100% certain myself. I was going off of his EliteProspects profile which is usually accurate.
Part about 2 passports doesn't matter, because even if he would want to play for Ukraine now, he would have to play 4 consecutive seasons in Ukraine as you already pointed out..
Part about 2 passports doesn't matter, because even if he would want to play for Ukraine now, he would have to play 4 consecutive seasons in Ukraine as you already pointed out..
Why would he have to play 4 consecutive years in Ukraine in order to be able to play for them internationally? Nabokov played in a IIHF sanctioned event for Kazakhstan, but now represents Russia. Are the circumstances different in this situation?
Why would he have to play 4 consecutive years in Ukraine in order to be able to play for them internationally? Nabokov played in a IIHF sanctioned event for Kazakhstan, but now represents Russia. Are the circumstances different in this situation?
Nabokov had played 2 consecutive seasons in Russia before playing for Russia thus fulfilling IIHF´s criteria for double citizens. I´m not sure whether anyone knows whether Babchuk and the other double citizen Ukrainians had actually played at least 3 consecutive seasons before starting their junior careers in Russia. (I don´t know how old they were when they moved to play Russia as eliteprospects only has stats for them since they were 15 or so). Asides from playing those years, there is also an another choice, they could just give up their Russian citizenship and there would be no other conditions in order for them to play for Ukraine, but I really don´t see that happening.
Why would he have to play 4 consecutive years in Ukraine in order to be able to play for them internationally? Nabokov played in a IIHF sanctioned event for Kazakhstan, but now represents Russia. Are the circumstances different in this situation?
Circumstances are the same, but Nabokov is the sole example where this rule wasn't carried out. I'm not sure why IIHF decided to do so, but I guess Russian hockey federation pressed the right buttons...
Part about 2 passports doesn't matter, because even if he would want to play for Ukraine now, he would have to play 4 consecutive seasons in Ukraine as you already pointed out..
I know, I was stating that I think he doesn't have his citizenship right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10
Why would he have to play 4 consecutive years in Ukraine in order to be able to play for them internationally? Nabokov played in a IIHF sanctioned event for Kazakhstan, but now represents Russia. Are the circumstances different in this situation?
That's more a result of the IIHF being inconsistent with their own regulations. Nabakov was born during the USSR era and he's ethnically Russian but he was born and lived in Kazakhstan. He has dual citizenship after the USSR broke apart. He wasn't good enough in 94 to play for Russia and wasn't invited to play for the Russian U20 team but Kazakhstan offered him a chance to play for the Men's National Team as a 19 year old.
He wanted to represent Russia in the 2002 but the IIHF wouldn't allow it because he had played for Kazakhstan and hadn't met to required 4 years of living and playing in Russia but they folded to him in 2006 and he was awarded a waiver allowing him to play for Russia from then on out.
Those requirements are very real and rarely waived. They are seen most often with Americans and Canadians who go to play in Europe, like the area so much they stay there for years and end up picking up citizenship and representing their new home.
I know, I was stating that I think he doesn't have his citizenship right now.
That's more a result of the IIHF being inconsistent with their own regulations. Nabakov was born during the USSR era and he's ethnically Russian but he was born and lived in Kazakhstan. He has dual citizenship after the USSR broke apart. He wasn't good enough in 94 to play for Russia and wasn't invited to play for the Russian U20 team but Kazakhstan offered him a chance to play for the Men's National Team as a 19 year old.
He wanted to represent Russia in the 2002 but the IIHF wouldn't allow it because he had played for Kazakhstan and hadn't met to required 4 years of living and playing in Russia but they folded to him in 2006 and he was awarded a waiver allowing him to play for Russia from then on out.
Those requirements are very real and rarely waived. They are seen most often with Americans and Canadians who go to play in Europe, like the area so much they stay there for years and end up picking up citizenship and representing their new home.
If that's the case then Ukraine should push for the same thing. They should push for any player who was born in Ukraine to be able to play there, as long as they haven't played internationally for another country in at least 4 or so years.
If the IIHF wants to improve hockey internationally they have to start somewhere. Former Soviet countries could really benefit from a rule like that. Players toward the end of their career (i.e. Zhitnik) who made the decision when the USSR folded to play for Russia, but were born in another Soviet Republic should be able to come back and represent their country of birth. This would help keep those countries competitive and hopefully bring back interest in playing for their country of birth. I could really see this benefiting Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
If that's the case then Ukraine should push for the same thing. They should push for any player who was born in Ukraine to be able to play there, as long as they haven't played internationally for another country in at least 4 or so years.
If the IIHF wants to improve hockey internationally they have to start somewhere. Former Soviet countries could really benefit from a rule like that. Players toward the end of their career (i.e. Zhitnik) who made the decision when the USSR folded to play for Russia, but were born in another Soviet Republic should be able to come back and represent their country of birth. This would help keep those countries competitive and hopefully bring back interest in playing for their country of birth. I could really see this benefiting Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
What do you guys think?
I think the IIHF should allow players to switch nations if they haven’t played a senior international game. If you play in the u-18’s or U-20’s you are tied to that nation you played for, but you have the ability to switch in the future. it should be difficult to do so, I think a player should have to get permission from the National federation they are leaving.
If that's the case then Ukraine should push for the same thing.
For Babchuk to be in the same situation as Nabokov he would still need to play 3 seasons in Ukraine, or at the very least 2 (which is the rule for players who have never played internationally). If he does not even do that he hasn't much of a case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10
They should push for any player who was born in Ukraine to be able to play there, as long as they haven't played internationally for another country in at least 4 or so years.
What's next? Anyone who visits Ukraine is eligible as well? That's about as relevant as birthplace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty10
If the IIHF wants to improve hockey internationally they have to start somewhere. Former Soviet countries could really benefit from a rule like that. Players toward the end of their career (i.e. Zhitnik) who made the decision when the USSR folded to play for Russia, but were born in another Soviet Republic should be able to come back and represent their country of birth. This would help keep those countries competitive and hopefully bring back interest in playing for their country of birth. I could really see this benefiting Kazakhstan and Ukraine.
What do you guys think?
Such players nearing the end of their careers are only marginaly better, if at all, than Ukr or Kaz national team regulars. They would bring precious little. Players born in a Soviet republic will eventually die out anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by finchster
I think the IIHF should allow players to switch nations if they haven’t played a senior international game. If you play in the u-18’s or U-20’s you are tied to that nation you played for, but you have the ability to switch in the future. it should be difficult to do so, I think a player should have to get permission from the National federation they are leaving.
And you would end up with teams icing a dozen Canadians. I'm sure that will really help the national programmes
Well they have stated they are going to push to nationalize players, Russians included
Which while this may help the national team, it doesn't help Ukrainian hockey....but if it gets them into the top division I guess that does help Ukrainian hockey...catch 22
Doesn't matter how long ago it was, Babchuk played for Russia in the IIHF U18s twice and doesn't hold Ukrainian citizenship so he'd have to spend 4 seasons living and playing in Ukraine and get his citizenship to become eligible.
2 years on a team like Budivelnyk and presto, he's team Ukraine eligible, no?
2 years on a team like Budivelnyk and presto, he's team Ukraine eligible, no?
4 years and yes.
If Budivelnik (Ukrainian potential KHL club) would get his ITC (international transfer card) from Russian hockey federation and from that moment on he spends for consecutive years playing for very same team he becomes Ukrainian eligible.
(Example - Ainars Podzins. Born in Latvia, spent all of his life in Russia, signed for Dinamo Riga of KHL on a two year deal, Russian hockey federation gave his ITC to Latvian hockey federation on 27th September 2010, he officially becomes Latvia national team eligible on 28th September 2012. And that's it.)
Quick clarification: he doesn't have to play for the same team, just within the same country. For instance, a Canadian who played U20 for Canada could go to Germany and play for multiple DEL teams over the 4 years and be eligible to play for Germany.
