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Please don't blame soccer, why is hockey falling off the map in Czech and Slovakia?

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Old
12-30-2010, 09:17 AM
  #76
slovakiasnextone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrashersfanSVK View Post
This. I wanted to show you that the population is not important or better said is not so important as wealth of country. Slovenia is post-communist country, too (Yes, it was a different communist regime, but it was still communism). So I think it's good comparing. They were on the same starting line as Slovakia in beginning of 90's (+ don't forget to war, but yes, they weren't significantly affected by war). However nowadays, you know...


You mentioned just individual sports. I have to say one Slovak proverb - If you want to live with wolves you have to howl with them. In collective are many stupid children. Yes, there are some wise but as the proverb says, evil always wins :-). Martikán and Velits are individual athletes. There are not in collective, they can do whatever they want, they don't need to look "cool" in front of their teammates. And this is highly related to education...


And that is the result of neglected education. He has to know that to be the best in Slovakia is not enough for him! Obviously, he thinks that's enough. I agree with you, but I'm afraid this will never change if we don't build the education system for young athletes.


To your last question - Hard to say. He's really big talent. It also depends on which coach he would met.
I donīt think that Slovakia and Slovenia were really on the same line in 1990, just because they are both ex-communist country, just as for example Slovakia and Bulgaria werenīt on the same line. IMO Slovenia was the wealthiest part of whole Yugoslavia, maybe even wealthier than the Czech parts of Czechoslovakia, while Slovakia was the poorer part of the Czechoslovak federation, which has a long history and goes all the way back to Austria-Hungary, where Slovakia was just mainly agrarian land, while Bohemia was even more industrially developed than Austria itself. Plus, considering mečiarism andall the damage it has done to the country as you have mentioned, I think since 1998 we have done pretty well in catching up to the Czechs and Slovenes (but you canīt forget that they are still moving forward even though at a slower pace they might have in the earlier post 89/90 years). A country like Portugal for example had the better position in the 1990īs, but tey were already overtakem economically by the Slovenes and soon will probably be by the Czechs and I think itīs because Slovenia can just use what they have better than the Portguese and it might be similar with Slovenia and Slovakia. Itīs all in the minds of people. You also mention that the different types of communism donīt matter, but I slightly disagree as I think the Czechoslovak bread of communism had a stronger affect on people than Titoīs one, or have the Slovenian people during communism been humiliated (and pretty much betrayed by their own leaders whom they trsuted with their lives and for whom they stood up- they might not have wanted to sign the agreement with it and were more or less forced to, but they did) as the Czechoslovaks in 1968 by foreign armies? Not even talking about the whole "normalization" process. Also, you mention that the war didnīt have much effect on Slovenia, it didnīt, but they managed to defend themselves without major losses slowly after getting their freedom- that has to have a different effect on people than findinf yourself under the rule of an autocratic idiot shortly after regaining your freedom (though of course it was the Slovak people who elected him in the 1st place). Of course, this is a very tough discussion as the opinions of the recent history warry very much in these parts of the world. For the mods: I know this is really OT, but I believe this has a great influence on sports in these parts of the world.

Yes, I mentioned just individual sports, but you make it sound a bit as if the indivdual sportsmen only trained in some kind of cage by themselves. Just because they have to stand alone there in the competition, it doesnīt mean that they have indivudal trainings only while growing up and that there donīt have any peers with whom they practice and infront of whom they could look cool.

I donīt think that education is really the word youīre looking for. I think that considering the conditions in this country, I went to schools that werenīt all so bad and Iīd say that at least 90% kids comming from them are well educated, but it doesnīt change the way that they lived on Friday/Staurday nights.

Itīs all in the heads once again and Iīm not sure whether education would change it.

Well, I hope he does realize it and not only him, but kids similar to him. Well, coaches, I donīt think there are many that should change it whom he will meet in Slovakia.

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12-30-2010, 09:28 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I've mentioned it several time before but Finnish hockey magazine did an article on junior hockey early last year and Czech Republic's problems were listed by Vaclav Sykora (who's coached several teams in Finnish SM-liiga) as: kids being too lazy, not interested in sports in general, only video games and hanging around on the internet.
All I can hear is a loud and clear "get off my lawn!!". There are still kids who want to play, but the competition is tougher.

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12-30-2010, 10:56 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Rogalo View Post
Im not arguing with you that Czech players tend to mature later - I agree with you on that one. I just pointed out that we actually had a couple of first round talents in the past years and some are actually living up to their potential.
I think Krejčí is more likely to be a future star than either Voráček or Frolík but indeed, no disagreement here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Hockey is expensive to play. Every country could have a lot more kids playing hockey if the costs weren't so high.
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
Economics. I was in Czech about a year and a half ago, and compared to Austria and Germany, Czech is much poorer (overall).

Hockey is an expensive sport.
Wealth of a country can certainly be a factor (and it's true that many parents are not able or willing to buy/rent the hockey equipment for their kids) but I'm not really sure that it is as simple as some posters in this thread believe it is. We were a poorer country back in the 70's and 80's which resulted in kids having far less choices in spending their lesuire time (not so much travelling, no entertaining TV shows to speak of, of course no Playstation or computers). Back then, to many young people hockey seemed to be one of the few chances to achieve something interesting and satisfying in life, while nowadays, the opportunities are perceived as being much wider. Long story short, with increased wealth, there are far more distractions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I've mentioned it several time before but Finnish hockey magazine did an article on junior hockey early last year and Czech Republic's problems were listed by Vaclav Sykora (who's coached several teams in Finnish SM-liiga) as: kids being too lazy, not interested in sports in general, only video games and hanging around on the internet.Also the change in level of junior coaching was mentioned, "old pros" are charging too much for their services which isn't helped by the economic situation, too many uneducated dads coaching, the poor level of competition and coaching in junior leagues which is driving the more talented kids to North American junior leagues for the missing factors. I was informed upon my previous mentioning of this article by a poster that they're trying to fix the coaching issue though.
This.

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12-30-2010, 11:09 AM
  #79
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I don't really have anything to contribute to this conversation because I don't know all that much about Czech or Slovak hockey, but I have read this entire thread and just wanted to come and post about how interesting it is! Really nice to get perspectives of people living in different countries. Definitely a more educated conversation than most other threads around here.

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12-30-2010, 11:34 AM
  #80
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If you had to rank the costs of sports, Hockey would be, if not the most expensive sport, very near the top.

Soccer, on the other hand, would be near the bottom.

I am Canadian and as a kid I played far more soccer then hockey. So...

In the long term, unless you live in a country like Canada where hockey is a religion, soccer will win out.

And, I am okay with it - but, then again, I am Canadian so I always know the sport of hockey will be pushed to the front of the line where I live.


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12-30-2010, 12:02 PM
  #81
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floorball is not bad for hockey, the kids are just developing their skills

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12-30-2010, 12:06 PM
  #82
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One problem is the low level of Extraleague. Players born in the early 1970's are still dominating this league.

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12-30-2010, 12:47 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
One problem is the low level of Extraleague. Players born in the early 1970's are still dominating this league.
well, itīs definitely one of many problems but certainly not the biggest.. i think our Extraleague is very close to SM-liiga or Elitserien.. its just our league isnīt so monitored and that IS a problem

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12-30-2010, 02:49 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
If you had to rank the costs of sports, Hockey would be, if not the most expensive sport, very near the top.

Soccer, on the other hand, would be near the bottom.

I am Canadian and as a kid I played far more soccer then hockey. So...

In the long term, unless you live in a country like Canada where hockey is a religion, soccer will win out.

And, I am okay with it - but, then again, I am Canadian so I always know the sport of hockey will be pushed to the front of the line where I live.

Same here, I played hockey and soccer till i was maybe 13 then hockey became way too expensive, i still remember my dad telling me i cant play hockey anymore cause it was too expensive. I just wonder if its the same in other countries, cause here unless you're really really good, mostly the rich kids get to play hockey.

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12-30-2010, 02:57 PM
  #85
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they did a little segment between the periods discussing why participation in hockey is low even in canada , like 9% of kids play organized hockey. They didnt say it but i think the main reason is simply the cost.

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12-30-2010, 03:08 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by joey16 View Post
well, itīs definitely one of many problems but certainly not the biggest.. i think our Extraleague is very close to SM-liiga or Elitserien.. its just our league isnīt so monitored and that IS a problem
Do you really think has-beens such as Vlasak, Patera, Dopita, Beranek etc. should still be among the top players in Extraleague?

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12-30-2010, 03:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Uindicator View Post
Same here, I played hockey and soccer till i was maybe 13 then hockey became way too expensive, i still remember my dad telling me i cant play hockey anymore cause it was too expensive. I just wonder if its the same in other countries, cause here unless you're really really good, mostly the rich kids get to play hockey.
Well, it's the same here. Costs will always be a factor when it comes to hockey.

Another factor in Germany that's probably not so much a problem in Slovakia and Czechia is the low number of rinks which means not enough ice-time for everyone and young kids having to train at 11pm.

My neighbour was really into hockey and very talented but in the end he chose soccer and tennis over hockey because of the horrible rink-times, not really because of money.

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12-30-2010, 03:56 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
One problem is the low level of Extraleague. Players born in the early 1970's are still dominating this league.
This is exactly one of the secondary problems. Old players are still much better than youngsters so they play first line minutes. Our league is also so slow and soft.

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12-30-2010, 04:04 PM
  #89
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Another factor in Germany that's probably not so much a problem in Slovakia and Czechia is the low number of rinks which means not enough ice-time for everyone and young kids having to train at 11pm.
I think it is not so different here. I remember times when I was playing just for fun that I used to see little children to come on training around 4 or 5 am. And when you consider that they are little and equipement is too heavy for them, parents need to go with them before and after training. Not everybody has a time for that.

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12-30-2010, 04:31 PM
  #90
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How is it off the map, Slovakia just finished 4th at the Olympics. That's one of their all time best finishes.



Obviously the Worlds Juniors isn't completely indicative of how well a country's hockey interest is doing. Nations are always bound to have weak years come along every now and then, but Czechoslovakia is still producing top end NHL talent at a consistent basis.
Can people use the proper terms. It's not Czechoslovakia anymore jeez. Yes countries do have off years, but the Czech's have been off for about a decade now. When was the last time they were legit contenders to win gold at this tournament. Like was said earlier, eventually you need young players to replace the ones on the senior team when they retire. The Czech's have Voracek and they have a few coming up in a couple of years with Musil and Frk but they are in trouble. I just finished watching the Swe-Cze game and wow..there is nothing there to get excited about. Frk is going to be really good but that program has some serious problems right now. Let's not sugar coat this.

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12-30-2010, 04:46 PM
  #91
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Can people use the proper terms. It's not Czechoslovakia anymore jeez. Yes countries do have off years, but the Czech's have been off for about a decade now. When was the last time they were legit contenders to win gold at this tournament. Like was said earlier, eventually you need young players to replace the ones on the senior team when they retire. The Czech's have Voracek and they have a few coming up in a couple of years with Musil and Frk but they are in trouble. I just finished watching the Swe-Cze game and wow..there is nothing there to get excited about. Frk is going to be really good but that program has some serious problems right now. Let's not sugar coat this.
I believe no-one has been doing that in this thread:-) We are just simply stating arguments and opinions concerning the question "What is going on with Czech and Slovak junior hockey".

I strongly believe the current course set by the Czech hockey federation with the development programme will get us back on track. But it will take time. In the following 5 years minimum I suspect we will be annualy producing 3 - 4 good prospects at the maximum. This logically means that there will not be overly a lot to get excited about when CZE plays in U20;-) This is reality.

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12-30-2010, 04:52 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Rogalo View Post
Football (I prefer to call it that:-) is a major sport in CZE as well and is certainly luring away kids from hockey. And in the last couple of years we have to count in floorball as well which is currently on the rise in CZE and the national team certainly has good results (bronze from last WC).
however, the czech football team is not what is used to be either

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12-30-2010, 05:03 PM
  #93
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however, the czech football team is not what is used to be either
Iīm not gonna get into that debate...could get way too long and certainly doesnīt revolve around hockey. But Iīll tell you this - Give me one example of a country not surpassing 10 million that is capable to constantly play at the top level in a sport so competitive as football for a longer period of time (10 years perhaps). Qualify to all major football events. I dare you:-)

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12-30-2010, 05:15 PM
  #94
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If you want to know why any country is better at a sport than another, it's almost always the same answer: MONEY

If you live in a rich country and/or the government spends money on sport, then the teams/athletes will be good. If you cut spending, the teams will get worse, no matter how popular the sport is.

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12-30-2010, 05:23 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Rogalo View Post
Iīm not gonna get into that debate...could get way too long and certainly doesnīt revolve around hockey. But Iīll tell you this - Give me one example of a country not surpassing 10 million that is capable to constantly play at the top level in a sport so competitive as football for a longer period of time (10 years perhaps). Qualify to all major football events. I dare you:-)
hey, I used to marvel at the czech program when they had jagr and co. dominating ice hockey and pavel nedved/poborsky and co. stacking up against any soccer nation in the world.

I suppose it was simply a case of the golden generation much like Spain has now with their midfield.

But there has been a noticeable drop off. Perhaps its only part of the cycle in czech republic as I'm not familiar with their up and coming talents in football but I dont see another nedved on the horizon in soccer or a jagr on the horizon in hockey.

I didn't mean any disrespect. I used to ask other people the same question that you did just did, because I was amazed.


Last edited by Hackett: 12-30-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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12-30-2010, 05:26 PM
  #96
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Seems like the czech and slovakian hockeyprograms needs to be revamped. Czech rep. has 11 drafted players in the last three years, Slovakia has 7. Thats no flattering numbers. When so many of the best chechs play in CHL, the quality of the junior league must be pretty weak. One of the goals must be to keep the players at home and create a stronger junior league that good players can develop in.

A silverlining is at least that those few chechs that get drafted tends to develop to good players. Krejci, Voracek, Frolik, Hanzal, Sobotka and Olesz are some great forwards thats 25 years old and younger + undrafted Cervenka. Frk also looks like a potential superstar. Whats more troubling is the lack of great young defenders. Kaberle, Zidlicky, Hamrlik, Rozsival, Kubina, Spacek, Hejda, Martinek and Kuba is all past 32, and now I have named almost all Czech D-men playing in NHL. Lets hope Musil turns in to a great defender at least.

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12-30-2010, 05:29 PM
  #97
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hey, I used to marvel at the czech program when they had jagr and co. dominating ice hockey and pavel nedved/poborsky and co. stacking up against any team in the world.

I suppose it was simply a case of the golden generation much like Spain has now with their midfield.

But there has been a noticeable drop off. Perhaps its only part of the cycle in czech republic as I'm not familiar with their up and coming talents in football but I dont see another nedved on the horizon in soccer or a jagr on the horizon in hockey.

I didn't mean any disrespect. I used to ask other people the same question that you did just did, because I was amazed.
However when you look at the youth World/European football championships the Czechs still qualify for them regularly and compete, maybe not on such a high level as in the past, but they do. At the youth levels the players are still at the better half of the European countries, but they donīt manage to take it to the senior level at the moment.The problem is that many of these young players sign contracts with top European league teams, where they end up sitting on the bench, wich halts their development and it destroys many of them. There are many problems in Czech football, but the lack of talented youth is in my opinion not No.1 on the list.

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12-31-2010, 03:24 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by cheerupmurray View Post
Seems like the czech and slovakian hockeyprograms needs to be revamped. Czech rep. has 11 drafted players in the last three years, Slovakia has 7. Thats no flattering numbers. When so many of the best chechs play in CHL, the quality of the junior league must be pretty weak. One of the goals must be to keep the players at home and create a stronger junior league that good players can develop in.
Lener has been working on improving the junior leagues by trying to make clubs give their youth more of a chance to play in the extraliga, as well as checking up on how they train, doing special seminars for coaches to give them the latest on training techniques etc. Good thing is, I've heard that sometime next year (I'm not sure when) they are going to make all 17 year olds sign 4 year contracts, so they can get money for them if they decide to leave for NA. So that'll help keep them here and ensure the club gets paid for bringing them up. So basically, the hockey programmes are being revamped, but it's going to be a lengthy process, given the corruption present in the system.....

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12-31-2010, 04:21 AM
  #99
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Well, it's the same here. Costs will always be a factor when it comes to hockey.

Another factor in Germany that's probably not so much a problem in Slovakia and Czechia is the low number of rinks which means not enough ice-time for everyone and young kids having to train at 11pm.

My neighbour was really into hockey and very talented but in the end he chose soccer and tennis over hockey because of the horrible rink-times, not really because of money.
There really isnt too many ice rinks in Czech republic or Slovakia either. Where I sometimes go in Vancouver there are 12 ice rinks all about 5min walk from each other, I cant think of 12 off the top of my head in all of Prague. Wouldnt surprise me if Vancouver had nearly as many if not more ice rinks than all of Czech republic.

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12-31-2010, 04:49 AM
  #100
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Give me one example of a country not surpassing 10 million that is capable to constantly play at the top level in a sport so competitive as football for a longer period of time (10 years perhaps). Qualify to all major football events. I dare you:-)
Portugal has done better with the same population.

Czechia for such a small country had a wonderful group of players in the last 12 years or so, but they certainly did not qualify for all the major events. In fact they only qualified for 1 in 4 world cups, getting knocked out in the 1st round. Even adding the Euros they only got past the first round twice in 8 attempts. Uruguay and Paraguay seem to do more with less.

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