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Please don't blame soccer, why is hockey falling off the map in Czech and Slovakia?

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Old
12-31-2010, 08:46 AM
  #101
Rogalo
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Portugal has done better with the same population.

Czechia for such a small country had a wonderful group of players in the last 12 years or so, but they certainly did not qualify for all the major events. In fact they only qualified for 1 in 4 world cups, getting knocked out in the 1st round. Even adding the Euros they only got past the first round twice in 8 attempts. Uruguay and Paraguay seem to do more with less.
I never said we qualified. I merely wanted to point out that a small country is bound to have problems replacing a succesful older generation of players and will never be a stable country taking part in all major competitions (WC and Euro) like larger countries (Italy, Germany, France etc.). You have a point that the Portugese are capable of that - good point! But otherwise I think smaller countries are doomed to wait for a special generation or generations to reach triumphs. In our case it was 1996 (Poborsky, Nedvěd, Kadlec - Euro 1996) and than a dry spell until the generation of Baros, Rosicky, Čech matured (Euro 2004). And now we are in transition again and have to wait until young guns mature again (strong generation born in 1988 - 90).

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12-31-2010, 08:48 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BruinsButton View Post
If you want to know why any country is better at a sport than another, it's almost always the same answer: MONEY

If you live in a rich country and/or the government spends money on sport, then the teams/athletes will be good. If you cut spending, the teams will get worse, no matter how popular the sport is.
Usually true

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12-31-2010, 09:28 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Rogalo View Post
I never said we qualified. I merely wanted to point out that a small country is bound to have problems replacing a succesful older generation of players and will never be a stable country taking part in all major competitions (WC and Euro) like larger countries (Italy, Germany, France etc.). You have a point that the Portugese are capable of that - good point!
Well, to be fair the Portuguese are also capable of sustaining mediocrity for a long time as well : they did nothing between 86 (where they did very little) and 96, and I think they failed to qualify for any competition between 66 and 84. Talk about drought.

The Rosickż, Nedvěd, Baroš led team of around 2004 was one of the most exciting teams in living memory, unfortunately they were also some of the biggest underachievers. They really should have won 2004 and done much better in 02 and 06 (I guess in 2000 they were just unlucky with the draw).

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12-31-2010, 09:56 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Well, to be fair the Portuguese are also capable of sustaining mediocrity for a long time as well : they did nothing between 86 (where they did very little) and 96, and I think they failed to qualify for any competition between 66 and 84. Talk about drought.

The Rosickż, Nedvěd, Baroš led team of around 2004 was one of the most exciting teams in living memory, unfortunately they were also some of the biggest underachievers. They really should have won 2004 and done much better in 02 and 06 (I guess in 2000 they were just unlucky with the draw).
They also were unlucky with draw in 2006. Italy,Ghana,USA... and they actually dominated most of the game against Italy. Buffon had to make some great saves (just watched that game again few months ago).

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12-31-2010, 10:10 AM
  #105
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ok, here's my take!
when you loose your best prospects to CHL - they become worse off and often fall of the map of hockey or become average. The more I watch hockey - the more I am convinced - that prospect should develop home and got to the NHL at 24-26. Bring Russia as an example: Nikulin, Zubov, Korostin, Grachev, Kostromitin, Berdnikov many-many others - go to Canada as high end Russian prospects and just disappear on the map of hockey.

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12-31-2010, 10:19 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Muuri View Post
They also were unlucky with draw in 2006. Italy,Ghana,USA...
Ghana and the USA were hardly world beaters, you expect this kind of opponents in a World Cup.

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Originally Posted by Muuri View Post
and they actually dominated most of the game against Italy. Buffon had to make some great saves
You make my point: if you're able to dominate against the eventual world champions you should not end up knocked out in the 1st round by an average team. Nothing to do with luck.

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12-31-2010, 10:21 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by PRMan View Post
And yet we beat you and took you to OT in the Olympics. I could just as easily say that Canada doesn't have anywhere near the goaltending of Thomas, Quick and Miller. Dustin Brown is second only to Crosby in points in December, and he's a more complete player than Ovechkin or Stamkos. I'd say Canada-US (tie) is becoming more true every day, and that isn't likely to change.
Do you honestly believe that?

25 of the top-50 NHL scorers are Canadian right now. 5 are American. The USA's leading scorer is a defenseman.

It's great that Dustin Brown has had a hot December (especially for my fantasy team), but he's still under a point-per-game for the season. If his hot streak is a sign of him moving onto a plane with Ovechkin and Stamkos (lol what?), then what should we make of the mediocre showings guys like Kessel and Parise have had this season?

The USA beat Canada in the juniors last year (and may very well repeat this year). At the same time, Canada won 5 in a row leading up to that, and has IMO looked better so far this tournament. At the Olympics last year, the USA beat Canada in the preliminary rounds for their first best-on-best victory over them in 15 years. It's not like beating Canada in an Olympic game is an automatic sign of equality. The Finns, Swiss, Russians, Czechs, and Swedes have all beaten Canada at the Olympics. Pretty much any of the top 6 or so teams in the world are good enough to win on any given day.

The USA is clearly improving, but they don't match Canada for elite talent yet. And they certainly don't match them for depth.

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12-31-2010, 10:37 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
ok, here's my take!
when you loose your best prospects to CHL - they become worse off and often fall of the map of hockey or become average. The more I watch hockey - the more I am convinced - that prospect should develop home and got to the NHL at 24-26. Bring Russia as an example: Nikulin, Zubov, Korostin, Grachev, Kostromitin, Berdnikov many-many others - go to Canada as high end Russian prospects and just disappear on the map of hockey.
You can't make a direct comparison with Russia. Like I posted before, the talented Czech juniors are getting better competition and coaching in the CHL RIGHT NOW than at home.

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12-31-2010, 10:45 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Like I posted before, the talented Czech juniors are getting better competition and coaching in the CHL RIGHT NOW than at home.
That might be true, but why do so few of the czech juniors not make it to the NHL? Why do so many end up going home and playing in the first czech league, or occasionally in the extraliga after a couple of years? IMO they are better off developing at home, but that's not to say that going to the CHL is a bad thing, for some it is a good step, for most it isn't.

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12-31-2010, 10:47 AM
  #110
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Splitting those countries really hurt


and soccer

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12-31-2010, 10:54 AM
  #111
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That might be true, but why do so few of the czech juniors not make it to the NHL? Why do so many end up going home and playing in the first czech league, or occasionally in the extraliga after a couple of years? IMO they are better off developing at home, but that's not to say that going to the CHL is a bad thing, for some it is a good step, for most it isn't.
Because the most "damage" has been already done in the younger age groups. When they get to 14-17 year group, it may be too late for most of them. Only the most hard working ones and/or the best trained ones will make the step to the big leagues.

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12-31-2010, 11:02 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Splitting those countries really hurt


and soccer
I don't think splitting did hurt Czech development system. IMO if both countries were still togehter the level of competition would be even lower than it is right now in the Czech Republic.

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12-31-2010, 11:26 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Swipes View Post
That might be true, but why do so few of the czech juniors not make it to the NHL? Why do so many end up going home and playing in the first czech league, or occasionally in the extraliga after a couple of years? IMO they are better off developing at home, but that's not to say that going to the CHL is a bad thing, for some it is a good step, for most it isn't.
Until the internal problems get resolved and the Czech junior leagues become strong enough there is no other choice for talented Czech juniors than to come to the CHL. Many want to get drafted and recieve more than the limited ice time they would recieve in the senior league, they want exposure which is something they are not getting back home. It is the same reason many Russians are leaving as well their junior league is not yet established, they recieve limited ice time in the KHL and the chances of getting drafted are minimal for a prospect in Russia. Sweden on the other hand has a well established junior league with excellent coaching, two high caliber mens leagues in the Allsvenskan and SEL where ice time may be a little easier to come by for a youngter than in Russia and most importantly a transfer agreement. There is also history which indicates to NHL GM's these players are very likely to come over.

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12-31-2010, 12:00 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by zorz View Post
I don't think splitting did hurt Czech development system. IMO if both countries were still togehter the level of competition would be even lower than it is right now in the Czech Republic.
I look at it this way. The Czechs are like Canada in player development. Slovakia is like the US, they have hockey players, just not as many stars as their neighbors. Then take into account the populations of those two countries. Yes, they probably were stronger 20 or 30 years ago when they were united.

I was in the Czech Republic for a few days in 2008 and was surprised that I didn't see more rinks. Do a lot of people there play outdoors?

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12-31-2010, 12:20 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Rogalo View Post
I“m not gonna get into that debate...could get way too long and certainly doesn“t revolve around hockey. But I“ll tell you this - Give me one example of a country not surpassing 10 million that is capable to constantly play at the top level in a sport so competitive as football for a longer period of time (10 years perhaps). Qualify to all major football events. I dare you:-)
Communist Czechoslovakia was one heck of a sporting country. There is no going back. I don't think Czech or Slovak hockey (and other sports) will ever be as good as it was under communism.

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12-31-2010, 12:27 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
ok, here's my take!
when you loose your best prospects to CHL - they become worse off and often fall of the map of hockey or become average. The more I watch hockey - the more I am convinced - that prospect should develop home and got to the NHL at 24-26. Bring Russia as an example: Nikulin, Zubov, Korostin, Grachev, Kostromitin, Berdnikov many-many others - go to Canada as high end Russian prospects and just disappear on the map of hockey.
Interesting change of mind. If I remember correctly you were advocating Russians to play in the CHL just a while ago?

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12-31-2010, 12:31 PM
  #117
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Hockey is really expensive in some country, even in Canada you can't really play competitive hockey for under $5,000 a year.

At that price you can go snowboarding all year, play soccer or football in the summer and there's still money left for other stuff.

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12-31-2010, 12:41 PM
  #118
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Communist Czechoslovakia was one heck of a sporting country. There is no going back. I don't think Czech or Slovak hockey (and other sports) will ever be as good as it was under communism.
Dont agree. Other hockey countries were able to thrive - and still thrive - as democratic countries in sports and we shall too. I mean we already have a lot of succes even now and we will get better in time - all we need is the economy to catch up with the western world. And honestly I have NO IDEA on what grounds you are saying that Czech and Slovak hockey will ever be as good. I am ruling out you are psychic

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12-31-2010, 12:51 PM
  #119
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Wealth of a country can certainly be a factor (and it's true that many parents are not able or willing to buy/rent the hockey equipment for their kids) but I'm not really sure that it is as simple as some posters in this thread believe it is. We were a poorer country back in the 70's and 80's which resulted in kids having far less choices in spending their lesuire time (not so much travelling, no entertaining TV shows to speak of, of course no Playstation or computers). Back then, to many young people hockey seemed to be one of the few chances to achieve something interesting and satisfying in life, while nowadays, the opportunities are perceived as being much wider. Long story short, with increased wealth, there are far more distractions.
Many of those are more recent factors that only became a thing post USSR. While video games and computers were around in the 70's, the technology itself also hadn't developed to the point it is now. Video games of today have more far more variety and depth than those of old, and while I agree that electronic distractions are an issue, they're an issue for everybody else.

Politics also played a role. I don't know if it was the case with the satellite states, but for Russia, the USSR wanted to be the best at every sport, including hockey. Meaning they subsidized it.

Quote:
...Starting in 1952, former Soviet dictator Josef Stalin put his government’s propaganda department in charge of Russian sports. Their duty was to show the capability of the Soviet model by dominating the international athletic world. For the first time in 40 years, Russia competed at the Olympic Games.

“The idea that was the younger generation had to be fit enough to protect the motherland, so a nationwide system of physical education was implemented,” he said. “But to a degree it was also a propaganda tool … one of the goals was to prove the superiority of the Soviet approach, social life and so on, and show that Russia would not settle for second place.”

Though the new system did benefit the Russian sports scene by allowing all children an opportunity to play competitive sports at no cost, a mandate was set among coaches and players on national teams — start producing positive results or face severe consequences.
http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/sports...-11-soviet.htm

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12-31-2010, 01:07 PM
  #120
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Well I'm going to sound like a big homer here but I would have Canada clear cut 1. I know the US is closing the gap and all but let's get real. Canada is still producing higher end talent. It's just my opinion, don't get me wrong it's great for the game if they are equal and we really need a superstar American born kid to emerge. Some are close (Kane, Parise, Ryan), but nobody on the level of an Ovechkin or Stamkos (of course nobody is close to Sid right now).
Not to play the homer card in return, but Kane and Parise are definitely top-tier talent. Are they Sid, Ovy, or Stamkos? No. Neither is Ryan Getzalf, is he not "top tier?". Kesler, Ryan, and Byfuglien are fast approaching that status as well. And aside from Luongo, there's at least 5 American goalis id take over any Canadian, and I'd take three if them over Luongo (Thomas, Milker, Quick).

Guess it depends on your definition of "best." Canada definitely has a deeper talent pool and more high end taken, but USA's team are starting to play on par with Canada.

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12-31-2010, 01:35 PM
  #121
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I don't know if Czech hockey is simply going through a down-phase or if there are more serios underlying problems. But even watching them at this tournament, I really appreciate what Czechs bring to the game of hockey and I hope it continues.

In my opinion, there always had one of the best hockey systems from a tactics point of view and caught many nations completely off-guard. Let's see: Nagano 98- beat Canada/ Completely Shut-down Russia, WJC 2001- again shut-down a high scoring team, or even this year at the WC.

They have, arguably, the best approach to tactics and discipline in hockey, and paired with individual skilled players that we know Czechs can produce- its no surpise to me at all they can be and have been a powerhouse in the past.

I hope Russians don't underestimate them tonight!

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12-31-2010, 01:36 PM
  #122
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Guess it depends on your definition of "best." Canada definitely has a deeper talent pool and more high end taken, but USA's team are starting to play on par with Canada.

The only reason the states have that talent is because of its proximity to Canada and the support of Canadians in America. Behind every good American hockey player is a Canadian Father/Relative/Coach/GM etc The American system has been helped by Canadians and the Canadian program of excellence. I feel bad for the Europeans because they can not keep up with the advancements in Hockey and should get more funding from the NHL.

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12-31-2010, 01:51 PM
  #123
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They also were unlucky with draw in 2006. Italy,Ghana,USA... and they actually dominated most of the game against Italy. Buffon had to make some great saves (just watched that game again few months ago).
The 2004 Czech team was absolutely heart breaking to watch. Brilliant in the group stages against Holland, and they controlled the play in the semi-final against Greece. Nedved was the engine behind that team, and he injured his leg midway through the game. Had he finished that game, the Czechs certainly would have won it, given how well Baros and Koller were playing at that point.

Pavel Nedved, my most favourite athlete of all-time, had a brilliant career, but had such moments of sadness. Champions League in 2003 and that European Championships in 2004 are noteworthy.

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12-31-2010, 02:02 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
ok, here's my take!
when you loose your best prospects to CHL - they become worse off and often fall of the map of hockey or become average. The more I watch hockey - the more I am convinced - that prospect should develop home and got to the NHL at 24-26. Bring Russia as an example: Nikulin, Zubov, Korostin, Grachev, Kostromitin, Berdnikov many-many others - go to Canada as high end Russian prospects and just disappear on the map of hockey.
I agree with this completely. The best thing for hockey would be if Europeans only played in North America if they were in the NHL. If they are not good enough or old enough to be in the NHL then they should be at home strengthening their domestic leagues.

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12-31-2010, 02:06 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
ok, here's my take!
when you loose your best prospects to CHL - they become worse off and often fall of the map of hockey or become average. The more I watch hockey - the more I am convinced - that prospect should develop home and got to the NHL at 24-26. Bring Russia as an example: Nikulin, Zubov, Korostin, Grachev, Kostromitin, Berdnikov many-many others - go to Canada as high end Russian prospects and just disappear on the map of hockey.
You do realize that the Czech's left off a couple of players from their roster simply because they didn't like the way they went to the CHL. They'd be a much better team with these players. There biggest weakness is in goal, and they have a guy 5 times better sitting at home in Ottawa watching the games.

My personal opinion is that Russian prospects don't do well in the CHL because they tend to be "me first" type players who have yet to learn how to play a team game. These type of players aren't going to fair well in a Canadian system who have the "team" concept beat into them from birth. For some reason it doesn't click into a Russian head (in general) until they turn about 24 that other players are just as good as them and they are going to have to work and play as a team to succeed.

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