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Old
01-01-2011, 11:27 AM
  #1
montreal
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2003 Draft

1st 10th A.Kostitsyn
2nd 49th C.Urquhart (traded for O.Latendresse)
2nd 61st M.Lappierre (traded for B.Festerling + 5th in 2012)
3rd 79th R.O'Byrne (traded for M.Bournival)
4th 113th C.Locke (traded for S.Belle)
4th 123rd D.Stewart (not offered a contract)
6th 177th C.Lindberg (not offered a contract)
6th 188th M.Flood (turned down contract offer)
7th 217th O.Korpikari (not offered contract)
8th 241st J.Bonneau
9th 271st J.Halak (traded for L.Eller + I.Schultz)


Only Kostitsyn remains from our '03 draft, with Bonneau on an AHL contract. On one hand it seems odd that our 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 9th round picks have all been traded within the past 3 years. But on the other hand 6 of the 11 picks have appeared in the NHL with 4 of them getting a regular shift. Not bad for Timmins 1st draft with the Habs, to get 6 guys that appeared in the NHL, but for what's looking like the best draft class in a long time, sucks that we haven't gotten something bigger out of it.

Urquhart/Lappy/O'B/Locke/Halak has turned into Festerling/Bournival/Eller/Schultz and a 5th. Getting Eller and Bournival is nice for the prospect pool, it's just too bad we couldn't get better assets to help us win now. I really like Eller but it would be a huge help to the team now if we had someone that had at least double his production if not triple. Granted I can't wait to see what Eller becomes in a couple years, and now we have an impressive young core at 23 and under with Price/Subban/Eller, just that I would have rather seen us go for it this year (of course if it backfires this place would go nuts)

Wonder how long Kostitsyn has.

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01-01-2011, 11:33 AM
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habshound247
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When you look at the 2003 draft, it may go down as one of the greatest talent drafts ever. What is frustrating is that, excluding Halak and arguably Kostitsyn, Montreal missed on most of it. I realize that hindsight is always 20/20, but we need better/more scouting.

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01-01-2011, 11:37 AM
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Hey guys, try and live in 2011. The past is the past.

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01-01-2011, 11:43 AM
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we got a #1 goalie, a 25 goal scorer an energy guy and a solid 6'6" defenseman.

Any draft were you come out with 4 nhl'ers is a good draft

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01-01-2011, 11:48 AM
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montreal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessHabsFan View Post
Hey guys, try and live in 2011. The past is the past.
This thread is not about the past, it's about the present, since we traded 3 guys from the '03 draft in less then 6 months. Plus what's the point of having a hockey board if it's not to discuss things from the past?

Quote:
Originally Posted by habshound247 View Post
When you look at the 2003 draft, it may go down as one of the greatest talent drafts ever. What is frustrating is that, excluding Halak and arguably Kostitsyn, Montreal missed on most of it. I realize that hindsight is always 20/20, but we need better/more scouting.
For sure, missing out on a big gun really hurts, but getting 6 players to the NHL also shows good scouting. It sucks that we don't have a Getzlaf, Perry, etc... but at least Timmins is good at getting us NHLers. It also sucks that it was a transitional year for the organization, wonder how it would have gone if it wasn't Timmin's first year at the helm, Gainey was just brought in, Savard on his way out, so who's to say it wouldn't have gone differently.

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Originally Posted by scottyG View Post
we got a #1 goalie, a 25 goal scorer an energy guy and a solid 6'6" defenseman.

Any draft were you come out with 4 nhl'ers is a good draft
Agreed. Although funny when you consider that the player picked 271st is likely better then someone picked 10th, shows how much of a wild card the draft can be.

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01-01-2011, 12:36 PM
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habshound247
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I agree with you that the team was in transition when the 2003 draft occured, and frankly it has been in transition since, with coaches, owners, etc. I understand development of talent is key, and certain systems will always highlight some players strengths and others weaknesses. The point about Kostitsyn is valid, he may very well be the next one to go.
The only true way to evaluate a draft is to give it time. Is 7 years not enough? Maybe. My point is that with the talent that was there, this is when it would show up on a roster. It takes time to mature. And when you read any of these boards, people are clammering for more forward size, skill and puck moving defensemen. If you just look at the 2003, 2004 and 2006 drafts, we missed big time. However, Montreal had arguably one of the best drafts after Pittsburgh in 2005. It is a crap shoot, no question.
But one thing is FOR CERTAIN...all Canadiens fans want to see the Cup parade going down the streets of Montreal again. When you look at Detroit, they save a lot of their picks and draft and develop well. Toronto, on the other hand, no, and look where they are. This is why poor drafting hurts now.

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01-01-2011, 12:59 PM
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I don't know the history of it, but can the Halak pick be attributable to anything other than pure luck? There has to be a cut off point in my opinion for assessing scouting, at least, where scouting can be attributed as the main cause of the pick. I can't say I know what happens either, it's just that if the team had any inkling of how good Halak was he would have been drafted much earlier.

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01-01-2011, 01:06 PM
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Just for fun (dont turn this into a Timmins bashing thread) redo the pick for the habs (dont pick the first 9)

list: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2003e.html

my pick: Zach Parise.What a great year he had in his draft year. 61 pts in 39 games in his rookie season at North Dakota.

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01-01-2011, 01:12 PM
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A toss between Brown and Getzlaf.

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01-01-2011, 01:29 PM
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Even Flood has played six NHL games...

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01-01-2011, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CareyClutch View Post
Just for fun (dont turn this into a Timmins bashing thread) redo the pick for the habs (dont pick the first 9)

list: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2003e.html

my pick: Zach Parise.What a great year he had in his draft year. 61 pts in 39 games in his rookie season at North Dakota.
Richards pretty easily, for me.

Edit: Or Shea Weber (2nd round).

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01-01-2011, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
I don't know the history of it, but can the Halak pick be attributable to anything other than pure luck? There has to be a cut off point in my opinion for assessing scouting, at least, where scouting can be attributed as the main cause of the pick. I can't say I know what happens either, it's just that if the team had any inkling of how good Halak was he would have been drafted much earlier.
I wonder that kind of thing too. It is obviously dumb luck to pick a guy in the 7th round who even makes the NHL (let alone becomes a top player), since only a minority of picks from the second round onward traditionally go on to have legit NHL careers.

But teams like Detroit have had an excellent record at later drafting and a lot of that has been attributed to them having had more scouting resources stationed in Europe in recent years, well ahead of what most other orgs were doing in those areas, so it has to be considered at least an educated guess to keep picking guys late and see it work out.

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01-01-2011, 02:45 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
I don't know the history of it, but can the Halak pick be attributable to anything other than pure luck? There has to be a cut off point in my opinion for assessing scouting, at least, where scouting can be attributed as the main cause of the pick. I can't say I know what happens either, it's just that if the team had any inkling of how good Halak was he would have been drafted much earlier.
I don't know why he didn't go sooner in the draft, as reports were he was impressive at the U-18's in helping Slovakia get the Silver. I know that the day of the draft, one former scout at McKeens told me the Habs just stole one when the picked Halak. I'm sure there's a lot of luck anytime you nab a starting goalie in the 9th round, but who's to say where he ranked on their list. If your picking 10 or so times, and going off your list, he could have been in the top 20 or 30 (no clue where he was on their list) then you could see why he would fall a bit at least in regards to our picks.

I know that when I saw Halak and Henio-Lindberg at the development camp, I thought Halak wasn't very impressive and loved what I saw from Heino-Lindberg. Halak kept playing deep in his net whereas Henio-Lindberg was very aggressive, also seemed to be joking around with the players. But I didn't see Halak at the u-18's, based off a couple days of the development camp I would have picked Lindberg over Halak, so it's funny how things work out. (also I have a hard time evaluating goalies, only position I never played)

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01-01-2011, 03:06 PM
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Richiebottles
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Originally Posted by NamelessHabsFan View Post
Hey guys, try and live in 2011. The past is the past.
The Post says 2003 please learn how to read thank you very much.

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01-01-2011, 03:09 PM
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Richiebottles
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But i mean look at Zherdev he was picked really high and he is good Offensively but he is far from a top liner.

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01-01-2011, 03:25 PM
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Gabe84
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If you can draft one solid NHL player from a draft, you've done a good job IMO. We've got a starting goalie, a decent defenseman with size, a quality grinder/pest and a second line winger with consistency issues. All in all, I wouldn't say that was a bad draft for the Canadiens at all. It's true that since this is the 2003 draft we're talking about, it would have been nice to get better out of it, but there are many teams that did a lot worse than the Canadiens.

I don't like when people connect drafts and subsequent trades together. Whether we traded a player or not has no impact on how good the draft was to the Canadiens or not, or at least, the job the scouts did. I'm not saying that's what you did here, I don't know if that was your intentions--I don't think it was--, but in any case, whether we traded those players or not is irrelevant. I think that drafting Andrei Kostitsyn at the time made a lot of sense. He was very highly regarded. Many teams passed on Carter, Parise, Richards, etc. Kostitsyn was drafted where he was supposed to be drafted. Arguably even lower than he was projected.

That said, I'd understand if fans were angry at the scouting department if Price was a monumental flop, because he was kind of a longshot. And Fischer was a very disappointing pick. And he was the kind of pick that we all questioned, even on draft day. But Kostitsyn, I really don't like when this topic is brought up.

I think that what we're seeing right now, with all those young prospects or players that the Canadiens have traded over the past few years is the proof that we're drafting quality players and developing them decently. I think some of them just aren't a good fit here in Montreal.

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01-01-2011, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessHabsFan View Post
Hey guys, try and live in 2011. The past is the past.
If this topic was about the 1979 draft, maybe you'd have a point. But the 2003 draft is still very actual. Many players from that draft are making a big difference on their team, and a lot of players from that draft are playing in the NHL. It's hard to discuss a draft when it has just happened. The best time to look back on it is a few years later when the players are in their prime, wouldn't you say?

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01-01-2011, 03:35 PM
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A.K., Lapierre, O'Byrne, Halak. That's what Timmins got us. What management did with them is another thing.

It would be interesting to compare with other teams and see who drafted better than Timmins. Off the top of my head I would say Philly and maybe two other teams.

EDIT: Took a couple of minutes &checked for myself. Here are the teams that did better than or came close to drafting as well as the Habs. You guys be the judges

S.J.
Michalek
Bernier
Carle
Pavelski

Philly
Carter
Richards
C. Fraser
Alex Picard
R. Poutuly

Anaheim
Getzlaf
Perry
S, Miller
Shane O'Brien

L.A.
D. Brown
B. Boyle
J Tambellini

Chicago
Seabrook
Kukkonen
Byfuglien

Boston
M. Stuart
Bergeron
N. Thompson


Last edited by onice: 01-01-2011 at 03:55 PM.
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01-01-2011, 03:57 PM
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Richiebottles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
A.K., Lapierre, O'Byrne, Halak. That's what Timmins got us. What management did with them is another thing.

It would be interesting to compare with other teams and see who drafted better than Timmins. Off the top of my head I would say Philly and maybe two other teams.

EDIT: Took a couple of minutes &checked for myself. Here are the teams that did better than or came close to drafting as well as the Habs. You guys be the judges

S.J.
Michalek
Bernier
Carle
Pavelski

Philly
Carter
Richards
C. Fraser
Alex Picard
R. Poutuly

Anaheim
Getzlaf
Perry
S, Miller
Shane O'Brien

L.A.
D. Brown
B. Boyle
J Tambellini

Chicago
Seabrook
Kukkonen
Byfuglien

Boston
M. Stuart
Bergeron
N. Thompson
Would have to say Chicago and Philly won . They got 2 really good players each but it also could be about the player development in the team's system and not purely about the draft.

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01-01-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenheimer View Post
I don't know the history of it, but can the Halak pick be attributable to anything other than pure luck? There has to be a cut off point in my opinion for assessing scouting, at least, where scouting can be attributed as the main cause of the pick. I can't say I know what happens either, it's just that if the team had any inkling of how good Halak was he would have been drafted much earlier.
I think the story goes that the one of the habs scouts was at an international tourney (probably scouting someone other than halak) where a young ovechkin was playing, and halak shut him down when they played each other.

I guess when you go into the 9th round, you can draft players based on one game


I'm sure other have heard this story and can correct me if I'm wrong.

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01-01-2011, 04:04 PM
  #21
montreal
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Originally Posted by Gabe84 View Post
I don't like when people connect drafts and subsequent trades together. Whether we traded a player or not has no impact on how good the draft was to the Canadiens or not, or at least, the job the scouts did. I'm not saying that's what you did here, I don't know if that was your intentions--I don't think it was--, but in any case, whether we traded those players or not is irrelevant.
Why not? It doesn't strike you as at least slightly odd that almost all of our signed '03 draft picks have been traded? I can see one or two but to me it seems a bit unusal, and certainly points somewhat of a picture of the job the scouts are doing both good and bad. Timmins is getting us NHLers but the team is turning around and trading them, if they were better picks, they likely wouldn't have been traded.

In addition to O'B, Lappy, Halak, Locke, Urquhart, there's Grabovski, McDonagh, Valentenko, D'Agostini, Lats, Chipchura, S.Kostitsyn. That's a lot of prospects to be trading away in a short time frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
It would be interesting to compare with other teams and see who drafted better than Timmins. Off the top of my head I would say Philly and maybe two other teams
Personally I don't care what other teams did better, I only care about what the Habs do. When I look at the standings, I don't care which teams we are better then, I just want to see us at the top.

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01-01-2011, 05:00 PM
  #22
Gabe84
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Why not? It doesn't strike you as at least slightly odd that almost all of our signed '03 draft picks have been traded? I can see one or two but to me it seems a bit unusal, and certainly points somewhat of a picture of the job the scouts are doing both good and bad. Timmins is getting us NHLers but the team is turning around and trading them, if they were better picks, they likely wouldn't have been traded.
I don't see a connection, no. When Timmins drafted those players, how could he know what coach we'd have years later? 7 years later, to be exact. I know some posters are offended when it is mentioned that Lapierre was a "stud" under Carbonneau, but there is no doubt that he was thriving under a different system.

Each team has a philosophy, each coach, a game plan. Martin's arrival has seen a load of players not getting re-signed, getting traded, getting sent down... The man has a system. He wanted players with specific skill set or at least, a certain attitude. At least, that's what it looks like.

Halak getting traded had nothing to do with bad play. Drafting goaltenders is just extremely random. They drafted a bunch of goalies over that time frame and it just happened that two of them got through the system and all the way up to Montreal. Of course, as you know, you can only have one #1 goalie, and they went with Carey Price. Was it because he was superior to Halak? Or maybe they got a better return for Halak than they would have for Price and they evaluated that both goalies were as good? We don't really know. But we got a nice return for him, and even then, most people thought that the Blues won that trade (I don't want to go into that debate).

I think that the bottom line is this: teams are taking chances on our draftees, and one of the reason we are trading away bottom-line players is because we keep drafting well year after year. White, I think, should be playing on this team. He isn't because we already have 6 NHL-ready players on our bottom six. I think Maxwell deserves a chance as well. That's another debate. I don't see those players being traded away as a sign of anything.

If we drafted year after year 3-4 NHL players, after 7 years, we'd have 21-28 NHL-ready players. There's only 20 spots on a team. So we'd still be trading away picks. Add to that veteran players, undrafted players... You have to expect players getting traded away. The way I look at it: we got something back out of those picks, hence, we drafted well.

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01-01-2011, 06:14 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post

Personally I don't care what other teams did better, I only care about what the Habs do. When I look at the standings, I don't care which teams we are better then, I just want to see us at the top.
How do you know if you're on top unless you check to see where the others are?

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01-01-2011, 06:19 PM
  #24
montreal
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How do you know if you're on top unless you check to see where the others are?
I see our name 1st

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01-01-2011, 06:21 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
Would have to say Chicago and Philly won . They got 2 really good players each but it also could be about the player development in the team's system and not purely about the draft.
Strange that, according to your evaluation, none of the 9 teams that started picking before the Habs ended with better results.

Anyways - Halak and O'Byrne were not traded for the same reasons as Lapierre or Urquhart. Or for the same reason AK "might" get traded eventually (though I hope he won't).

Simple coincidence.

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