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2010-2011 Rangers Prospects Thread (Juniors, NCAA, International, Other) *Part 3*

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Old
01-14-2011, 01:46 PM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
We're not the only dummies waiting in line ya know

So great, 3 or 4 teams out of 30 might have been interested in taking DM with a high pick. That MUST mean we're above criticism for the pick
Above criticism? Of course not, but baseless criticism? Not something I can acknowledge or take seriously. It doesn't apply to everyone, but dismissing the pick because Tarasenko had a good WJC, or Fowler made the jump early to the NHL, really doesn't make sense to me.

Of all 11 teams that passed on Fowler, we seem to be the only team that has fans ready to slit their wrists over the pick. Why is that? Frankly, I think 90% of it has to do with the pre-draft hype machine. Very few posters actually base our wish list on first hand viewing of a player.

I can understand people being put off by the selection, but from the dozen or so games I've seen McIlrath this year, I can see why we took him. He brings a lot more to the table than just fisticuffs.

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01-14-2011, 02:07 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Above criticism? Of course not, but baseless criticism? Not something I can acknowledge or take seriously. It doesn't apply to everyone, but dismissing the pick because Tarasenko had a good WJC, or Fowler made the jump early to the NHL, really doesn't make sense to me.

Of all 11 teams that passed on Fowler, we seem to be the only team that has fans ready to slit their wrists over the pick. Why is that? Frankly, I think 90% of it has to do with the pre-draft hype machine. Very few posters actually base our wish list on first hand viewing of a player.

I can understand people being put off by the selection, but from the dozen or so games I've seen McIlrath this year, I can see why we took him. He brings a lot more to the table than just fisticuffs.
A lot to the table? I'd say even though he's had an injury his year has been okay. But A LOT more to the table, you'll have to explain more than that. I see a kid who still doesn't know how to play simple defense on some nights. That doesn't mean he's done or 'horrible', just means I wouldn't go as far to say he's wowing anyone.

Out of all the top 11 picks ours looks the worst, there's no sugar coating it. If you asked people in the scouting community to make up a list of those players then and now DM would be 11th on almost all those lists.

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01-14-2011, 03:47 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
A lot to the table? I'd say even though he's had an injury his year has been okay. But A LOT more to the table, you'll have to explain more than that. I see a kid who still doesn't know how to play simple defense on some nights. That doesn't mean he's done or 'horrible', just means I wouldn't go as far to say he's wowing anyone.

Out of all the top 11 picks ours looks the worst, there's no sugar coating it. If you asked people in the scouting community to make up a list of those players then and now DM would be 11th on almost all those lists.

So according to you and the scouting community, we picked the 11th best player out of the top 11, yet we had the 10th pick. What a gross display of narrow mindedness by the Rangers operations section, not drafting any of the nine guys picked ahead of McIlrath...or Campbell.

All this is ascertained less than 7th months after the draft was completed.

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01-14-2011, 03:57 PM
  #279
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Losing credibility cause I'm pointing out exactly what I don't like about his game right now? Should I just be like the rest of the fight club and just applaud his physical appearance until he turns pro?
No, losing credibility because you're reaching all the way down to start complaining about non issue crap like an instigator in the last two minutes of a blowout game and making it out to be a significant indication of...something about McIlrath.

It's perfectly fine to criticize his game and not like the pick. I'm not sold on him either (I just don't like to sit and go over and over about something we can't change), but I think there comes a point where you're not really critiquing the player or their abilities anymore and are just complaining because you're sore that he was picked in the first place.

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Under Clark we picked smart, skilled players with nice pedigrees in the first round up until last year, the year our arses were handed to us in public in the form of a Gaborik beat down while Girardi did nothing. I guess that'll just get chalked up to coincidence, right?
Well, the Rangers have been talking about "getting tougher" for years and years and years now. So I do really doubt that one incident led to the Rangers deciding to draft McIlrath. I would say it's been several incidents over the course of many years and the Rangers trying to find players who can provide some grit and toughness in the lineup without being able to.

Still doesn't make it smart to let that dictate your drafting but no, I really don't think it was once incident that led to the Rangers drafting McIlrath.

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01-14-2011, 04:45 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
So according to you and the scouting community, we picked the 11th best player out of the top 11, yet we had the 10th pick. What a gross display of narrow mindedness by the Rangers operations section, not drafting any of the nine guys picked ahead of McIlrath...or Campbell.

All this is ascertained less than 7th months after the draft was completed.
You read it wrong. I said if they had to list those 11 players only, he'd be #11 in almost all the lists, I'm certain cause I ask them. I talk to people who work as talent evaluators, not to mention those who attend games on the regular. I don't base anything just off my own opinion, give ole BN some credit for being involved in amateur hockey since the 1980's

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No, losing credibility because you're reaching all the way down to start complaining about non issue crap like an instigator in the last two minutes of a blowout game and making it out to be a significant indication of...something about McIlrath.

It's perfectly fine to criticize his game and not like the pick. I'm not sold on him either (I just don't like to sit and go over and over about something we can't change), but I think there comes a point where you're not really critiquing the player or their abilities anymore and are just complaining because you're sore that he was picked in the first place.
Reaching? I posted the video of the exact play, pointed out exactly what happened and stated exactly why that was neither of what was being said about the incident in this thread. It may be insignificant to you, but in this thread there are people bringing it up, ya know, to discuss our prospects.

I didn't like the pick, though if you read my latest posts I have good things to say about his recent play. I'm confident in my analysis, it comes off cocky all the time, I get that.

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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Well, the Rangers have been talking about "getting tougher" for years and years and years now. So I do really doubt that one incident led to the Rangers deciding to draft McIlrath. I would say it's been several incidents over the course of many years and the Rangers trying to find players who can provide some grit and toughness in the lineup without being able to.

Still doesn't make it smart to let that dictate your drafting but no, I really don't think it was once incident that led to the Rangers drafting McIlrath.
Do you want me to name the players we passed over year after year that could have fit that kind of player? There's plenty of them. Plenty who busted, and the criteria was this - 'He can skate and he's big !'

If it were so important and missing for years, how come we didn't waste a high draft pick on one?

In the end, this has more to do with the organization as a whole rather than one friggin draft pick, and that's always my point.

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01-14-2011, 05:19 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
You read it wrong. I said if they had to list those 11 players only, he'd be #11 in almost all the lists, I'm certain cause I ask them. I talk to people who work as talent evaluators, not to mention those who attend games on the regular. I don't base anything just off my own opinion, give ole BN some credit for being involved in amateur hockey since the 1980's
I'm not trying to discredit you at all. I would actually agree with you that from a pure talent standpoint, McIlrath is clearly No. 11. You can even drop him below Fowler and Gormley and Tarasenko etc.

But I'm of the opinion that both Sather and Clark foresaw the Rangers developing into a competitive team, and needing that extra muscle and toughness on the blue line that all Cup-winning teams have.

Orpik, Foote, Hatcher, Aaron Ward, Beukeboom, Samuelsson, Daneyko, Stevens...the list goes on. I think our Front Office always wanted to have that type of player, and the deep farm system and successful drafting allowed them to go off the board and draft McIlrath.

All that being said, there is no proof that McIlrath wont be a 18-20 min guy and beat the heck out of people, which is what we all want out of him.

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01-14-2011, 05:37 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
I'm not trying to discredit you at all. I would actually agree with you that from a pure talent standpoint, McIlrath is clearly No. 11. You can even drop him below Fowler and Gormley and Tarasenko etc.

But I'm of the opinion that both Sather and Clark foresaw the Rangers developing into a competitive team, and needing that extra muscle and toughness on the blue line that all Cup-winning teams have.

Orpik, Foote, Hatcher, Aaron Ward, Beukeboom, Samuelsson, Daneyko, Stevens...the list goes on. I think our Front Office always wanted to have that type of player, and the deep farm system and successful drafting allowed them to go off the board and draft McIlrath.

All that being said, there is no proof that McIlrath wont be a 18-20 min guy and beat the heck out of people, which is what we all want out of him.
I don't buy the deep farm system, especially when so many have graduated and we still don't really know what they are capable of. We have a lot of promise, but to say we have a deep system, especially top line offense and at Center, is just jumping the gun.

Cup teams need overall toughness, that is all you need to know about what a tough team is about. Who would you rather play the toughest guys in the league or the toughest guys to play against? There is a difference.

Boogard for example. Again, Sather was feeling the need for more manhood around Rangerland and overspent on a token set of balls this team did not need. We needed stronger and more capable toughness playing the majority of the game. He's so accurate to his own teams progression he didn't realize he had some toughness, look at the results of playing some of these younger guys. They're playing tough and not needing the Boogs or Averys of the world.

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01-14-2011, 06:42 PM
  #283
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Anyone know anything about wereks wrist injury, im reading he's trying to do anything that doesn't involve surgery which doesn't seam like a very wise thing to be doing with a wrist.

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01-14-2011, 07:31 PM
  #284
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I can't say I am surprised that you missed the point of my post, which was to point out the very double standard that you misinterpreted.
I got the point of your post, I just didn't think it was a valid one. I chose to not even address it, instead focusing on the part of your post which I indicated in bold, because I felt it was, frankly, insulting. You think people don't want a Ranger prospect to succeed because he's not their guy? I don't think that's the case at all. People want the Rangers to succeed more than anything.

The people who are unhappy with the selection aren't concerned with goals and assists. They don't bring up Fowler's name. I think there was one time where strength of schedule was pointed out, and it was only in response to some overstatement of praise because he scored a goal or something.

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And I see very very little analysis from the anyone, including McI's detractors.
The atmosphere here isn't very conducive toward analysis, since it seems that any perception of the analysis to be negative isn't met with counter-analysis, but rather accusations of treason. It's the same kind of thing that happens in other frequent topics of discussions around here where a small minority of people hold one opinion and the majority of people hold the opposite. No matter how many facts, stats or analysis you provide, it's usually just met with rhetoric.

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01-14-2011, 07:53 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I don't buy the deep farm system, especially when so many have graduated and we still don't really know what they are capable of. We have a lot of promise, but to say we have a deep system, especially top line offense and at Center, is just jumping the gun.

Cup teams need overall toughness, that is all you need to know about what a tough team is about. Who would you rather play the toughest guys in the league or the toughest guys to play against? There is a difference.

Boogard for example. Again, Sather was feeling the need for more manhood around Rangerland and overspent on a token set of balls this team did not need. We needed stronger and more capable toughness playing the majority of the game. He's so accurate to his own teams progression he didn't realize he had some toughness, look at the results of playing some of these younger guys. They're playing tough and not needing the Boogs or Averys of the world.

We do have a deep farm system, actually. That's what having a deep farm is based on, after all, is promise. But anywho on McI:


I think you're stuck on the fighting aspect of McI's game. Being tough, then comparing him to Boogaard is completely different. McIlrath has the ability in a few years to be tough AND tough to play against. Players in the W literally avoid this guy when they come down the ice. He plays with a mean streak and can hit like a truck. With a few years of direction and development he could be a monster of a crease clearing defenseman that people do not want to see opposite them.

Whether this has to do with thinking Fowler is better? I dont know. But Fowler has been good but if you look at our depth chart at D, you should be able to understand why we took McIlrath.

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01-14-2011, 08:15 PM
  #286
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We do have a deep farm system, actually. That's what having a deep farm is based on, after all, is promise.
The prospects we have are promising, but we don't exactly have some important bases covered as far as prospect pools go, IMO.

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I think you're stuck on the fighting aspect of McI's game. Being tough, then comparing him to Boogaard is completely different. McIlrath has the ability in a few years to be tough AND tough to play against. Players in the W literally avoid this guy when they come down the ice. He plays with a mean streak and can hit like a truck. With a few years of direction and development he could be a monster of a crease clearing defenseman that people do not want to see opposite them.

Whether this has to do with thinking Fowler is better? I dont know. But Fowler has been good but if you look at our depth chart at D, you should be able to understand why we took McIlrath.
I compared both in the sense they are two examples of token symbols of toughness, not actual team toughness. You are not reading what I'm actually trying to say.

I have no doubt DM can play if his game matures, that's what I'm debating though, his actual ability to play that game at a high level. So far I don't see enough of it for me to think the guy is gonna be this huge difference maker. I want him to be. He has the frame to start competing for a spot soon, but realistically he's years away, still many factors in play that far down the road. All we can do now is monitor his progress from time to time and hope he doesn't hurt himself in a stupid WHL fight against a guy who will never play in the NHL.

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01-14-2011, 08:21 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Reaching? I posted the video of the exact play, pointed out exactly what happened and stated exactly why that was neither of what was being said about the incident in this thread. It may be insignificant to you, but in this thread there are people bringing it up, ya know, to discuss our prospects.
Well, maybe I read your post on it as a negative critique of the play, which I don't really see the point of. In the overall judgment of McIlrath's play, it's pretty much a non issue in my opinion.

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Do you want me to name the players we passed over year after year that could have fit that kind of player? There's plenty of them. Plenty who busted, and the criteria was this - 'He can skate and he's big !'
Please do

I think the Rangers also see more in McIlrath than the size and all that. Right or wrong, they think he has a lot of potential and could be something special and fairly unique in the NHL. 6/7th tough guys aren't hard to find in the NHL, but a legit top 4 player who makes other teams players afraid of playing against them? Those guys are rare, and I think that's what the Rangers decided they saw in McIlrath. Not sure they saw all that in other players but I'd be happy to revist drafts and see who they passed on!

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01-14-2011, 08:48 PM
  #288
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but I'd be happy to revist drafts and see who they passed on!
My fave was Mark Fistric who was in consideration before we traded up for Korpikoski.

If Mcilrath turns into Fistric I'll be thrilled.

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01-14-2011, 08:48 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I don't buy the deep farm system, especially when so many have graduated and we still don't really know what they are capable of. We have a lot of promise, but to say we have a deep system, especially top line offense and at Center, is just jumping the gun.

Cup teams need overall toughness, that is all you need to know about what a tough team is about. Who would you rather play the toughest guys in the league or the toughest guys to play against? There is a difference.

Boogard for example. Again, Sather was feeling the need for more manhood around Rangerland and overspent on a token set of balls this team did not need. We needed stronger and more capable toughness playing the majority of the game. He's so accurate to his own teams progression he didn't realize he had some toughness, look at the results of playing some of these younger guys. They're playing tough and not needing the Boogs or Averys of the world.
When I say farm system, I mean prospects. You can throw anybody who has been in the league less than two years in that category. A lot of them are in the NHL for good reason. Considering the talent pool, the cap space and the franchise goalie, I see McIlrath being more of a difference make for the club as they vie for bigger things. The guys drafted after him -- Campbell, Fowler, Gormley, Forbort -- they offer nothing that we dont already have. Drafting any one of those guys just creates a logjam, they dont get enough playing time and they either get traded or toil in the minors.

And I agree that being "tough" is more a mindset than a physical attribute. But I think to a man, every coach and scout in Western Canada said McIlrath was tough to play against.

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01-14-2011, 09:03 PM
  #290
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Hagelin had the primary assist on Michigan's GWG tonight.

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01-14-2011, 09:13 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Media Savvy Lee View Post
When I say farm system, I mean prospects. You can throw anybody who has been in the league less than two years in that category. A lot of them are in the NHL for good reason. Considering the talent pool, the cap space and the franchise goalie, I see McIlrath being more of a difference make for the club as they vie for bigger things. The guys drafted after him -- Campbell, Fowler, Gormley, Forbort -- they offer nothing that we dont already have. Drafting any one of those guys just creates a logjam, they dont get enough playing time and they either get traded or toil in the minors.

And I agree that being "tough" is more a mindset than a physical attribute. But I think to a man, every coach and scout in Western Canada said McIlrath was tough to play against.
Depth is depth. A good GM moves pieces around, the important thing is to have a bunch of good pieces.

The players taken after Mcilrath offer skill and talent that is necessary to win at the pro level. I don't necessarily think what DM offers is absolutely necessary in today's game. It helps if we're talking about a guy like Fistric, but only time will tell if he can make such a jump.

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01-14-2011, 09:14 PM
  #292
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I got the point of your post, I just didn't think it was a valid one. I chose to not even address it, instead focusing on the part of your post which I indicated in bold, because I felt it was, frankly, insulting. You think people don't want a Ranger prospect to succeed because he's not their guy? I don't think that's the case at all. People want the Rangers to succeed more than anything.

The people who are unhappy with the selection aren't concerned with goals and assists. They don't bring up Fowler's name. I think there was one time where strength of schedule was pointed out, and it was only in response to some overstatement of praise because he scored a goal or something.
That was not my point. Although it is sadly evident that is the case.

My point was that many posters do not understand that there is a difference between holding a prospect (or whoever) to a higher standard and holding them to different standard.

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The atmosphere here isn't very conducive toward analysis, since it seems that any perception of the analysis to be negative isn't met with counter-analysis, but rather accusations of treason. It's the same kind of thing that happens in other frequent topics of discussions around here where a small minority of people hold one opinion and the majority of people hold the opposite. No matter how many facts, stats or analysis you provide, it's usually just met with rhetoric.
That might end up being the case. Of course I will have to wait until someone actually provides such analysis before I can make a judgement.

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01-14-2011, 09:17 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Depth is depth. A good GM moves pieces around, the important thing is to have a bunch of good pieces.

The players taken after Mcilrath offer skill and talent that is necessary to win at the pro level. I don't necessarily think what DM offers is absolutely necessary in today's game. It helps if we're talking about a guy like Fistric, but only time will tell if he can make such a jump.
We don't exactly know what McIlrath will turn into, or what kind of player the Rangers are trying to make him. Can he offer some of his offensive game which he has the potential to do, or is he a 'none shall pass' stay at home defender who crushes any skater trying to skate past him.

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01-14-2011, 09:18 PM
  #294
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Hagelin had the primary assist on Michigan's GWG tonight.
It was a nice play, looked like Cally falling to the ice to make a pass

Nice Minnesota/North Dakota game, Minny up 2-1.

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01-14-2011, 10:06 PM
  #295
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You read it wrong. I said if they had to list those 11 players only, he'd be #11 in almost all the lists, I'm certain cause I ask them.
For one the Edmonton Oilers listed Mcilrath as one of the 7 players worth trading up for along with Hall, Seguin, Gubrandson and others. So, they didn't have him at 11. How about we let the kid play and develop and then decide whether we would have been better off with a soft d-man like Fowler or a talented Russian who may never come to the states.

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01-14-2011, 10:54 PM
  #296
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Isn't this exactly what Grachev was supposed to be? Maybe the Rangers didn't want to take the chance on Tarasenko b/c EG hasn't translated the skills into even AHL success yet.
If you're comparing Grachev to Tarasenko, you have/had totally unrealistic expections for Grachev. They're not even in the same league. Tarasenko's a top-5 talent who fell to the middle of the first round because of questions over whether and when he'd be able to come to North America. Grachev was a second round pick who dropped to the third round because of those same concerns.

You want to compare anyone, compare Tarasenko and Cherepanov. Grachev shouldn't even be part of the same conversation.

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01-15-2011, 01:15 AM
  #297
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That was not my point. Although it is sadly evident that is the case.
That's one way of looking at it. Very subjective, IMO.

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My point was that many posters do not understand that there is a difference between holding a prospect (or whoever) to a higher standard and holding them to different standard.
And that isn't really a valid point either. You're basically going on that one event when the Warriors played the Hitmen. The standard isn't higher OR different, the concerns are higher and different. Stepan's best quality as a prospect was his mental game. That wasn't much of a concern for me, because he consistently displayed that this incredibly important factor in terms of a player becoming successful in the NHL was not in question. For McIlrath, that's an enormous concern. The biggest, as far as I and obviously other posters are concerned.

If someone is complaining about his offense, I wouldn't know, because I wouldn't be paying attention to someone making such foolish remarks.

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That might end up being the case. Of course I will have to wait until someone actually provides such analysis before I can make a judgement.
Then you're not looking hard enough. Concerns regarding his positioning and his decision making have been brought up more than a few times and discussed in specifics. I don't know what you're looking for out of analysis on a message board. We don't have a telestrator (unfortunately) so the best we're going to get is description, and that has been provided.

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01-15-2011, 04:24 AM
  #298
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I'm not trying to discredit you at all. I would actually agree with you that from a pure talent standpoint, McIlrath is clearly No. 11. You can even drop him below Fowler and Gormley and Tarasenko etc.

But I'm of the opinion that both Sather and Clark foresaw the Rangers developing into a competitive team, and needing that extra muscle and toughness on the blue line that all Cup-winning teams have.

Orpik, Foote, Hatcher, Aaron Ward, Beukeboom, Samuelsson, Daneyko, Stevens...the list goes on. I think our Front Office always wanted to have that type of player, and the deep farm system and successful drafting allowed them to go off the board and draft McIlrath.

All that being said, there is no proof that McIlrath wont be a 18-20 min guy and beat the heck out of people, which is what we all want out of him.
The problem is, most years you can not pick between types at that range -- you ought to be happy just to get that one pick that will make it to the NHL and become a decent player.

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Old
01-15-2011, 05:20 AM
  #299
JimmyStart*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
First off, this IS my lawn, been playing on it since 1998

Second - did I say it was the end of the world in regards to that play? Everyone who comes up against me seems to think I mean the end of the world, well lets put that to bed once and for all - its not. But can we also just disregard that play altogether? I don't think so. Either he was frustrated or he got carried away and went too far. It certainly wasn't to protect the net or himself or standup for someone.
I lol'd and then cringed at the lawn comment.

Huh I didn;t say you overdramatized it or said it was the end of the world. but you did indicate somewhere it wasn't exactl good for his development to spend time in the box and I was just saying in this case he didn't exactly take a misconduct and miss half a game here, that's all. If it's the beginning or middle of a game and he does that than I agree. Although 1 game doesn't make or break a prospect it's def preferable he play the games rather than watch. B/c he is a project (some picks you take are "near developed" or "future 1st liners" others are "possible 2nd pairing tough D man" or "Is developing...a project."

McI is def the ladder. Some1 earlier indicated every pick is a project which is right but there is some sorta understanding that when a prospect is called a project it's for a reason.

Some people seem to think his intelligence and D play is severely lacking, out of position sometimes, etc. Last year he was making improvements in that area has he regressed or stayed the same or not sure?

Numbers wise I think his O is better but to me that doesn't mean much.


Last edited by JimmyStart*: 01-15-2011 at 05:30 AM.
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Old
01-15-2011, 05:53 AM
  #300
msv957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
My fave was Mark Fistric who was in consideration before we traded up for Korpikoski.

If Mcilrath turns into Fistric I'll be thrilled.
Who is Mark Fistric? If Mcilrath develops into a Fistric, this would be a big disapointment

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