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Could there be a NHL second division?

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01-01-2011, 12:35 PM
  #1
totozenerd
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Could there be a NHL second division?

OK : I know I'm gonna be happily insulted and probably even threatened but there's my question : Why is there so few teams in the NHL ?
I live in Switzerland and you can't drive 15 miles without seeing a team who wants to compete for the national championship in 5 years or so. But I just published on Google Maps a map of all NHL teams on America, and Wow it is empty!

I know every NHL team needs loads of money to work, but I don't understand how, to put an example, Saskatchewan and Manitoba, enormous Canadian states (and no-one will ever say hockey is less popular in Canada than anywhere else), satisfy of having no NHL team.
It would be as if, in a hypothetical european league, norway and belarus had no team.

So why wouldn't it be possible to have some kind of NHL second division, of course a bit less "powerful", with possibilities of promotion/relegation in the NHL?
That could give an option to financially struggling teams like the Coyotes, who would go down and live for some years in NHL-2 where salaries are smaller and so on...

OK, now i've said this, i'm gonna pay a full squadron of the swiss army to protect me... ()

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01-01-2011, 12:40 PM
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I call bull on being swiss. Secondly, there are 12 Swiss first league times last time I watched a match there. And you tell me, how high in quality are swiss professional league teams?

somewhere between ECHL and IHL?

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01-01-2011, 12:41 PM
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Qurpiz
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I'd love to see relegation games in NHL.

Islanders vs the best AHL team or something, for life and death.

I know from experience, relegation games are the most intense thing for a fan. Finals have nothing on them.

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01-01-2011, 12:42 PM
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there is an nhl 2. its ahl. if you put the coyotes in the ahl, their attendance would jump from nhl numbers to ahl numbers. they would lose their nhl revenue streams while carrying an nhl payroll.

instant franchise death

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01-01-2011, 12:43 PM
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01-01-2011, 12:45 PM
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Qurpiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
instant franchise death
Now think what the fans are feeling like in Game 6 of the relegation series that goes to OT. Next goal is either your teams death (literally), or hope, a second chance few days away.

You wouldn't think hockey could make you feel those things.

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01-01-2011, 12:49 PM
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totozenerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Culloden View Post
And you tell me, how high in quality are swiss professional league teams?

somewhere between ECHL and IHL?
Just NO WAY!
Would you see Cristobal Huet, a Stanley Cup winner, going in a ECHL team ?
Btw his current team is struggling to make it for the playoffs, so is the fact of having a Stanley-Cup-winning goaltender in a middle-class team not enough in quality ?

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01-01-2011, 12:50 PM
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totozenerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd View Post
there is an nhl 2. its ahl. if you put the coyotes in the ahl, their attendance would jump from nhl numbers to ahl numbers. they would lose their nhl revenue streams while carrying an nhl payroll.

instant franchise death
U dont understand me i'm talking about a NHL-2 with promotion and relegation. I dont remember well but there wasn't a promotion/relegation system between NHL and AHL last time I checked

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01-01-2011, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totozenerd View Post
Just NO WAY!
Would you see Cristobal Huet, a Stanley Cup winner, going in a ECHL team ?
Btw his current team is struggling to make it for the playoffs, so is the fact of having a Stanley-Cup-winning goaltender in a middle-class team not enough in quality ?
No.

A) Because Huet sucks, being a Cup winner has nothing to do with it-being a cup winning backup does

B) Put Crosby in the ECHL and......it's still the ECHL

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01-01-2011, 12:53 PM
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totozenerd
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Btw a NHL-2 would be a kick in the a** for some teams who would just have to be competent if they dont want to get relegated (and lose probably half of their income in the process)

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01-01-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurpiz View Post
I'd love to see relegation games in NHL.

Islanders vs the best AHL team or something, for life and death.

I know from experience, relegation games are the most intense thing for a fan. Finals have nothing on them.
This wouldn't work because AHL teams are affiliated to NHL teams, because of the money involved, fanbases, etc, etc.

Look at Toronto, imagine if they were relegated down. They have some of the most fans in the league I don't think they would accept going down to the AHL.

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01-01-2011, 12:58 PM
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You want the simplest answer? The board of governors would never agree to anything resembling that structure, unless revenue was something like totally pooled across both levels. Nobody would buy/establish and NHL franchise if there were that much risk to them financially. I'm sure broadcasters would have a fit with it as well. Tough to establish a stable TV deal with a team when you're not even sure what league they'll be in a year from now, no?

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01-01-2011, 12:58 PM
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relegation wouldn't work in american sport simply because of american mindset

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01-01-2011, 12:59 PM
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totozenerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Culloden View Post
No.

A) Because Huet sucks, being a Cup winner has nothing to do with it-being a cup winning backup does
Not sure about that. Anyway not the point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culloden View Post
B) Put Crosby in the ECHL and......it's still the ECHL
True. BUT hasn't got anything to do with the level change!
OK, I reckon my example was not the best. But another one is seeing that the Zurich lions (from Switzerland) won the CHL against clubs like Metalurg Magnitogrsk or Ufa.

Another : SC Bern is one of the richest non-KHL teams in europe

Still Another : NLA manages to stay competitive with the DEL even though NLA clubs have a limit of 4 foreigners in their teams and some DEL clubs have more Canadians than Germans

Btw the subject of this thread IS NOT "is NLA better than the ECHL"

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01-01-2011, 01:04 PM
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I like the idea of relegation, but then I prefer how they run soccer leagues in Europe so I may be biased.

For example, FA in England has 23 tiers. Not that it'll ever happen, but imagine a team from the tiniest of hamlets working it's way to the top, it'll be the story of the ages.

Relegation have the advantage of smaller leagues and higher quality competition. It'll also let smaller market teams have meaningful competition at their own budget.

Of course, it would never work here because sports in NA are governed by private entities, and not government sponsored institutions.

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01-01-2011, 01:07 PM
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Qurpiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stjonnypopo View Post
This wouldn't work because AHL teams are affiliated to NHL teams, because of the money involved, fanbases, etc, etc.

Look at Toronto, imagine if they were relegated down. They have some of the most fans in the league I don't think they would accept going down to the AHL.
What if they weren't? What if the there was a 15-team NHL and 15-team AHL, and the 8 best AHL teams make it to the playoffs, winners of each series (=4 teams) face 2 worst "NHL" teams in the "relegation round". Each of the 6 teams play each other twice, 2 best teams of the said round play in the NHL next season. Rest of the teams (4) play in the AHL. No matter were the teams are from, only thing that matters is their whether they win games or not.

This is the the way it works in Sweden (SEL="NHL" Allsvenskan ="AHL"), and those relegation games are the most intense thing about the season, save for the finals.

EDIT: There is no speculation of tanking in this system

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01-01-2011, 01:10 PM
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totozenerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaesar View Post
I like the idea of relegation, but then I prefer how they run soccer leagues in Europe so I may be biased.

For example, FA in England has 23 tiers. Not that it'll ever happen, but imagine a team from the tiniest of hamlets working it's way to the top, it'll be the story of the ages.

Relegation have the advantage of smaller leagues and higher quality competition. It'll also let smaller market teams have meaningful competition at their own budget.

Of course, it would never work here because sports in NA are governed by private entities, and not government sponsored institutions.
Yes BUT in the FA (at least in the top tiers) they pay loads of money to the relegated because of automatic relegation : imagine if (proportionally to England) 4 NHL teams were relegated per year, that would mean (if it had happened last season) Oilers, Blue Jackets, Panthers and Maple Leafs in the NHL-2!!

Just imagine that!!
That's why playout systems are, in my opinion, better.
I am ready for answers

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01-01-2011, 01:11 PM
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To answer your question, as was touched on a little bit, the NHL is the best hockey in the world, and therefore the most expensive.

While Manitoba wants/had/should have a team, they couldnt support them financially. Saskatchewan while vast has very little population, only a million people in the whole province!

They would have voraciously supportive fans, they just wouldn't have enough of them.

And the opposite is true in some areas of the states. They have the people, but not enough interest to have a hockey team that could be competitive in the NHL. Some teams in the NHL, if they didn't already have a team, would never be able to aquire one now.

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01-01-2011, 01:12 PM
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totozenerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurpiz View Post
What if they weren't? What if the there was a 15-team NHL and 15-team AHL, and the 8 best AHL teams make it to the playoffs, winners of each series (=4 teams) face 2 worst "NHL" teams in the "relegation round". Each of the 6 teams play each other twice, 2 best teams of the said round play in the NHL next season. Rest of the teams (4) play in the AHL. No matter were the teams are from, only thing that matters is their whether they win games or not.

This is the the way it works in Sweden (SEL="NHL" Allsvenskan ="AHL"), and those relegation games are the most intense thing about the season, save for the finals.

EDIT: There is no speculation of tanking in this system
Pretty much OK with u, except the original reason in my post was : Why so few teams ?
So why not 30 NHL-1 and 30 NHL-2
And imagine, after a few decades like this, something like a Maple Leafs-Marlies rivalry!
That would be so cool!

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01-01-2011, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totozenerd View Post
Yes BUT in the FA (at least in the top tiers) they pay loads of money to the relegated because of automatic relegation : imagine if (proportionally to England) 4 NHL teams were relegated per year, that would mean (if it had happened last season) Oilers, Blue Jackets, Panthers and Maple Leafs in the NHL-2!!

Just imagine that!!
That's why playout systems are, in my opinion, better.
I am ready for answers
Yeah, I'm fine with a playoff system for relegation/promotion. I'm a proponent of having relegation/promotion in general.

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01-01-2011, 01:21 PM
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Qurpiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totozenerd View Post
Yes BUT in the FA (at least in the top tiers) they pay loads of money to the relegated because of automatic relegation : imagine if (proportionally to England) 4 NHL teams were relegated per year, that would mean (if it had happened last season) Oilers, Blue Jackets, Panthers and Maple Leafs in the NHL-2!!

Just imagine that!!
That's why playout systems are, in my opinion, better.
I am ready for answers
Automatic relegation means no relegation games, and as I said, those games are the ****

Plus I really think the team finishing last or second last should have a last stand


Quote:
Originally Posted by totozenerd View Post
Pretty much OK with u, except the original reason in my post was : Why so few teams ?
So why not 30 NHL-1 and 30 NHL-2
And imagine, after a few decades like this, something like a Maple Leafs-Marlies rivalry!
That would be so cool!
There's already talks about how the level of play in the NHL is weakening, how the talent pool is watered down. This way the NHL really is the absolute best in the world, but also the second league is a really good league.

Maybe go 20-20, bring in the 10 best AHL franchises?

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01-01-2011, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Culloden View Post
I call bull on being swiss. Secondly, there are 12 Swiss first league times last time I watched a match there. And you tell me, how high in quality are swiss professional league teams?

somewhere between ECHL and IHL?
I'd rate it as good as the AHL. Certainly a lot better than the ECHL. The North Americans playing in the Swiss League are either seasoned AHL vets or low level NHL'ers.

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01-01-2011, 01:24 PM
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totozenerd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurpiz View Post
Maybe go 20-20, bring in the 10 best AHL franchises?
Yeah maybe but maybe not AHL teams 'cos it could take a lot of time for them to get out of the "affiliate" type of thinking.

Btw this thread is working real well

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01-01-2011, 01:27 PM
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totozenerd
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Another thing I thought is : would there be a separate Draft for NHL-1 and NHL-2 or both in the same or a solution between those 2 (like just one but with seeding between First Division and Second Division teams) ?

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01-01-2011, 01:29 PM
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Leafs4Life77
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1. How would drafting work?
2. Have fun with a team like Toronto getting relegated, the outrage would be unreal.
3. Do you have any idea how much money a team would lose if they had 55 million dollars in player salaries expense and were playing in the AHL.

It's an interesting thought, but is not in the slightest way beneficial or feasible to the NHL.

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