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Old
01-02-2011, 10:54 PM
  #51
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I sit where you do if it's for the right assets going the other way. I doubt this board will be happy with anyone that's actually available.
The issue is wasting limited assets. Unless the guy is going to make a difference in wins and losses in the playoffs, it isn't worth it. After seeing what the Sharks need, Beauchemin is on the side of ridiculous in terms of waste. Same as Wallin last year.

In terms of what the Sharks can give up, it would be foolish to lose Seto. IMO, Ferriero is a nice substitute for the top lines but is not a top 6 winger. Seto may be at some point. The Sharks don't have anyone outside of Seto who may become a regular top 6. Including Seto gives them 7 top 6's with no prospects of another in the system in the near to mid future in terms of NHL readiness. Just enough in number to cover injuries at 7. Mitchell, McGinn, etc. would not upset me if they were lost to the Sharks as I don't see them even approaching top 6 status ever and they aren't very good when subbing on top lines. I realize the assets determine what can be returned and I understand that cuts the expectations in terms of what the Sharks can get.

Shuffling the chess pieces on the board without getting a real improvement in position is a waste and just gives DW a bad rep with the players. Sacrificing a pawn for no real improvement in position is an even worse option. DW's best move may be to go to the players and tell them that he isn't buying help this time around unless their play indicates that the players that are already here are ready for the playoffs. We haven't seen that yet this year in terms of consistency and rarely in individual games.

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Old
01-02-2011, 11:07 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I sit where you do if it's for the right assets going the other way. I doubt this board will be happy with anyone that's actually available.
Agree Seto is not one of the assets I'd send. Hate losing McGinn and Mitchell too because including Seto, thats the speed on the team and Beauchemin isn't going to help the speed quotient coming this way.

I think Beauchemin has more left than Wallin did/does and is better than either of Wallin or Huskins. One of those goes to the pine in that trade and thats OK. Trading McGinn for him works straight up but not from a cap perspective ( ... can we open the discussion about the Niemi signing again?) .... anyway .... Its hard to figure who we would give to make the cap hit work because he's not worth a top 6 player.

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Old
01-03-2011, 12:08 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Agree Seto is not one of the assets I'd send. Hate losing McGinn and Mitchell too because including Seto, thats the speed on the team and Beauchemin isn't going to help the speed quotient coming this way.

I think Beauchemin has more left than Wallin did/does and is better than either of Wallin or Huskins. One of those goes to the pine in that trade and thats OK. Trading McGinn for him works straight up but not from a cap perspective ( ... can we open the discussion about the Niemi signing again?) .... anyway .... Its hard to figure who we would give to make the cap hit work because he's not worth a top 6 player.
That he is better than Wallin and Huskins isn't really the issue (though, its not by a lot at this point, he's really really lost a step) It is that he costs 3.8m and is a #5. You thought Wallin is overpaid? We only have him through the end of the season at least.

And to answer your question about Braun, my point simply was that Braun makes this team better when he is on the ice, Beauch frankly will not. Yes Braun might hit a wall, absolutely, I was just using him as a comparison to how bad Beauch is.

At this point we need a guy who can clear the zone, hold the zone, make a decent pass, and pound shots from the point. Beauch does none of these things well right now, and right now is what matters. He's also somewhat slow, which is something we absolutely need to avoid adding to an already sluggish defense.

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Old
01-03-2011, 12:51 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
I agree with the point re: skill set, but do you think Braun having never played more than 40 games in a season, is going to play 82 and the playoffs and not crack? He has some glaring defensive weaknesses.

I like his skill set, but Braun is going to be better for the team next season.
But Braun doesn't have to play all 82 games and the playoffs. We are already into January, so Braun does not need to play all the games prior to this. He doesn't even have to play all of the upcoming games. Despite complaints, Joslin is good enough to sub in on some nights, or even a stretch, if Braun needs a rest.

The question is whether Beauch is such an upgrade that he will make a significant improvement to the team over what the team has now, that in balance he is worth the cost in assets and cap that it would take to acquire him? For me, the overwhelming answer is no.

Is Braun ready to play a regular role, maybe not right now. But the Sharks had luck bringing in guys like Carle in the past right into the playoffs. So it's not like it's impossible. There is also the possibility that someone like Doherty could come in after his junior season is over. Or Schaus, Irwin, or Moore if any of them get their games in gear. Heck, maybe even Petrecki if his season improves significantly.

The fact is that acquiring a marginal improvement at best just isn't worth the assets at this point. And as Easy pointed out, trading Seto isn't a very good option at the moment either (the Sharks NEED to have 3 scoring lines in the Playoffs if they really hope to be a legit contender this year). And the Sharks just don't have the cap space without sending a roster player out. And the only guys who will free up enough cap space are players with NTC's (Wallin) or who don't make enough to acquire a good enough player.

In this case, unless another fantastic gift deal falls into DW's lap, the best thing he can do is sit tight and wait for next year.

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01-03-2011, 01:06 AM
  #55
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I wouldn't be opposed to a Seto for Beauchemin trade.

However, as far as I know, this trade rumor is bogus. Sharks still have a fairly high regard for Setoguchi. No doubt they would like to get Beauchemin, but I think its going to be the prospect + pick route.

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01-03-2011, 01:14 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
I wouldn't be opposed to a Seto for Beauchemin trade.

However, as far as I know, this trade rumor is bogus. Sharks still have a fairly high regard for Setoguchi. No doubt they would like to get Beauchemin, but I think its going to be the prospect + pick route.
They'd have to send money the other way. Mitchel and Huskins would do it for example and leave 268k in space as we sit now.

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Old
01-03-2011, 02:02 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
They'd have to send money the other way. Mitchel and Huskins would do it for example and leave 268k in space as we sit now.
Huskins comes from Ontario and with his connection to Burke, I can see the trade that includes Huskins. Mitchell and Huskins would be a good trade for me. There are players that can replace Mitchell from the A.

....and for those trying to slant the conversation: Beauchemin is in no way a #5 defenseman. He's a middle pairing defender. Bottom pairs don't typically see more than 20 minutes a night. Beauchemin has never been below #3 on ATOI and that was when he played behind Nieds and Pronger.

05-06= 24.13 minutes per game
06-07= 25.28 minutes
07-08= 25.31 minutes
08-09= 24.54 minutes
09-10= 25.27 minutes
10-11= 23.57 minutes

Again, I am neutral on the trade because its not a full solution and it depends who would be sent. But I am pro on at least getting the facts right.

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01-03-2011, 03:52 AM
  #58
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Seto's been good the past few games but come on he's 24 and still just a fringe 20 goal scorer...

Leafs do NOT want our role player guys...We won't get a package deal with ferriero, mcginn, mitchell, or any other 3rd line talent for a solid two way defenseman like beauch. Nor will they take a 3rd pair dman to go with those 3rd liners...

"How about a slice of crap with more crap for your solid 1st/2nd pair dman leafs? You guys can throw in a pick too if you'd like."

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01-03-2011, 09:36 AM
  #59
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Versteeg and beauchemin to san Jose please

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01-03-2011, 09:57 AM
  #60
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Leaf fan - I come in pieces (lol)...

I'm surprised that more of you wouldn't be excited about adding Beauchemin...

Yes he's not Pronger or Lidstrom, but he's playing on an awful team with no system (Ron Wilson is a terrible coach for the Leafs)...

He plays 20+ a night, is a good shot blocker and was a the #3 guy on a Stanley Cup winner a few years ago...

If he came at a reasonable price, you guys would do well to have him...

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01-03-2011, 10:35 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Huskins comes from Ontario and with his connection to Burke, I can see the trade that includes Huskins. Mitchell and Huskins would be a good trade for me. There are players that can replace Mitchell from the A.

....and for those trying to slant the conversation: Beauchemin is in no way a #5 defenseman. He's a middle pairing defender. Bottom pairs don't typically see more than 20 minutes a night. Beauchemin has never been below #3 on ATOI and that was when he played behind Nieds and Pronger.

05-06= 24.13 minutes per game
06-07= 25.28 minutes
07-08= 25.31 minutes
08-09= 24.54 minutes
09-10= 25.27 minutes
10-11= 23.57 minutes

Again, I am neutral on the trade because its not a full solution and it depends who would be sent. But I am pro on at least getting the facts right.
I would normally agree with this line of thinking, but for whatever reason the guy is atrocious out there and they just keep playing him. You have not said if you have watched him play this year, but I am going to guess that you have not watched much of him if any or I think you would agree with Easy and myself. The guy is a mess.

Plus again, he's a 3.8m defensemen who is NOT a rental. You would be 'stuck' with him next year as well, and if he does not improve that could be a real difference maker next year. I do not have much hope for this season, so let's not go screwing up next season as well in a futile effort to fix this one.

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01-03-2011, 10:56 AM
  #62
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I would normally agree with this line of thinking, but for whatever reason the guy is atrocious out there and they just keep playing him. You have not said if you have watched him play this year, but I am going to guess that you have not watched much of him if any or I think you would agree with Easy and myself. The guy is a mess.

Plus again, he's a 3.8m defensemen who is NOT a rental. You would be 'stuck' with him next year as well, and if he does not improve that could be a real difference maker next year. I do not have much hope for this season, so let's not go screwing up next season as well in a futile effort to fix this one.
I'm lukewarm on Beauch but I don't see what problem he'd be for us cap-wise next year.

With Huskins & Wallins off the books, that's $4.2m to work with and McGinn and Seto are the only (relatively) major re-signings. (Niemi, perhaps, too, but if he is re-signed, I bet Nitty is traded with Stalock as the backup.) And neither Ginner nor Seto are playing well enough to deserve major raises.

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01-03-2011, 11:00 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I would normally agree with this line of thinking, but for whatever reason the guy is atrocious out there and they just keep playing him. You have not said if you have watched him play this year, but I am going to guess that you have not watched much of him if any or I think you would agree with Easy and myself. The guy is a mess.

Plus again, he's a 3.8m defensemen who is NOT a rental. You would be 'stuck' with him next year as well, and if he does not improve that could be a real difference maker next year. I do not have much hope for this season, so let's not go screwing up next season as well in a futile effort to fix this one.

But why is he a mess? Is it that he has no support? Has he taken a major step backwards? Is he disinterested playing on a bottom feeding non-playoff team?

Just as importantly is the reason he is a mess going to change if he is playing on the Sharks?

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01-03-2011, 11:31 AM
  #64
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Beauchemin is the incorrect guy at the incorrect price. Plain and simple.

Even if we were to upgrade from Wallin or Huskins with him, it makes no sense to do it.

To the Leaf fan who is wondering why we're not excited about him, we're not excited because there is no way for us to win the trade for Beauchemin unless you want to take a non roster player, salary dump, and mid round pick. Doesn't seem like Burke's cup of tea. He needs to win a trade, not lose the next one.

Lets take a look at the roster and see what is tradable

Heatley - no
Thornton- no
Patty - no
Pavelski - no
Clowe - no
Seto - Unless you can give us your 1st rounder to start off, no. Still RFA. No rush here to trade him unless its for a SIGNIFICANT UPGRADE.
Mitchell - We could part with him
Couture - HELL NO
McGinn - IMO, HELL NO. A good trading chip, but has too much upside to just trade off for a Dman we don't need.
Nichol - no
Ferriero- We could part with him
Mayers - no
McCarthy - We could part with him
Wingels - no
Mashinter - no

Boyle - no
Vlasic - no
Murray - no
Wallin - Sure, has a NTC though
Huskins - Sure
Demers - hell no
Joslin - We could part with him

So you pretty much look at it, and the only players that would clear enough salary to bring him here would have to be some kind of combination of Wallin, Huskins, and/or Mitchell.

As for trading draft picks, I strongly oppose and I'm sure most here would as well.

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Old
01-03-2011, 11:39 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Beauchemin is the incorrect guy at the incorrect price. Plain and simple.

Even if we were to upgrade from Wallin or Huskins with him, it makes no sense to do it.

To the Leaf fan who is wondering why we're not excited about him, we're not excited because there is no way for us to win the trade for Beauchemin unless you want to take a non roster player, salary dump, and mid round pick. Doesn't seem like Burke's cup of tea. He needs to win a trade, not lose the next one.

Lets take a look at the roster and see what is tradable

Heatley - no
Thornton- no
Patty - no
Pavelski - no
Clowe - no
Seto - Unless you can give us your 1st rounder to start off, no. Still RFA. No rush here to trade him unless its for a SIGNIFICANT UPGRADE.
Mitchell - We could part with him
Couture - HELL NO
McGinn - IMO, HELL NO. A good trading chip, but has too much upside to just trade off for a Dman we don't need.
Nichol - no
Ferriero- We could part with him
Mayers - no
McCarthy - We could part with him
Wingels - no
Mashinter - no

Boyle - no
Vlasic - no
Murray - no
Wallin - Sure, has a NTC though
Huskins - Sure
Demers - hell no
Joslin - We could part with him

So you pretty much look at it, and the only players that would clear enough salary to bring him here would have to be some kind of combination of Wallin, Huskins, and/or Mitchell.

As for trading draft picks, I strongly oppose and I'm sure most here would as well.

But some think that he is just this. I also think you are under valuing Seto in Burke's eyes. TO is in need of top 6 forwards. Either someone who can score on the second line or a setup man for Kessel. Seto fills the first.

While I don't assume to know Burke's mind he has definitely shown that he is a bird in hand guy, so I wouldn't assume that a pick is off the table.

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01-03-2011, 11:51 AM
  #66
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Leafs don't have a 1st round draft pick next year - Bruins have it thanks to the Kessel trade.

I disagree on Wingels and Mashinter being untradeable. They may not have much value but that's a different story. Coyle will contend for any spot Mashinter takes in a few years, and so far, Wingels seems like a 3rd liner...

As for trading draft picks, if for some miraculous reason it results in a dman like Burns/Weber/Suter, I'd be all for it. Not for Beauch, though.

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01-03-2011, 12:26 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Herschel View Post
But why is he a mess? Is it that he has no support? Has he taken a major step backwards? Is he disinterested playing on a bottom feeding non-playoff team?

Just as importantly is the reason he is a mess going to change if he is playing on the Sharks?
He is being beat 1 on 1, and is a turnover machine. His passing has deteriorated and he isn't using his shot effectively either. He's individually not playing well.

Put it this way, I think he's dragging the Leafs down more than they are dragging him down.

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01-03-2011, 01:07 PM
  #68
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He is being beat 1 on 1, and is a turnover machine. His passing has deteriorated and he isn't using his shot effectively either. He's individually not playing well.

Put it this way, I think he's dragging the Leafs down more than they are dragging him down.
Agree on the turnovers ..... there is a mental issue involved. The question is, what is it and can it be remedied? Is it Wilson? Is it the fact that he is a vet playing on a crap team once again? (Yes to answer the other question, I've watched the Leafs play a few times this year, at the start of the season because I was interested in watching Kaberle and more of late because they are blowing up and I like watching Wilson blow a gasket and blame everyone around him .... just for old time sake.)

You are entirely ignoring his Behind the Net stats which show him as a much better player than you indicate. You either have to decide the stats are wrong (happens at times) or maybe your perspective is slightly tilted to the negative (happens too) based on a limited personal sample of games? But there is a disconnect between those stats and your views. He is at the top or next to the top in virtually all the Leafs BTN stats.

I don't agree with the assessment that he has no value on this team. He is a better defenseman than anything we have after Boyle, Murray, and Vlasic. (Better than Demers but thats a different argument when you start to talk about team needs and Demers upside.) He ould pair well with Boyle and does have a good shot from the point.

And again to be clear ... I am not arguing this is the solution. There are large numbers of players that I would prefer well before Beauchemin who is only a partial solution. But actually getting any of the players available and making a trade that isn't sacrificing a top 6 winger or valuable prospects and picks will not be easy. Like SJEasy, I don't think anyone on this board will be happy with the options that we do have prior to the trade deadline. And yes, again, this isn't the best choice.

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01-03-2011, 01:27 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by WineShark View Post
Agree on the turnovers ..... there is a mental issue involved. The question is, what is it and can it be remedied? Is it Wilson? Is it the fact that he is a vet playing on a crap team once again? (Yes to answer the other question, I've watched the Leafs play a few times this year, at the start of the season because I was interested in watching Kaberle and more of late because they are blowing up and I like watching Wilson blow a gasket and blame everyone around him .... just for old time sake.)

You are entirely ignoring his Behind the Net stats which show him as a much better player than you indicate. You either have to decide the stats are wrong (happens at times) or maybe your perspective is slightly tilted to the negative (happens too) based on a limited personal sample of games? But there is a disconnect between those stats and your views. He is at the top or next to the top in virtually all the Leafs BTN stats.

I don't agree with the assessment that he has no value on this team. He is a better defenseman than anything we have after Boyle, Murray, and Vlasic. (Better than Demers but thats a different argument when you start to talk about team needs and Demers upside.) He ould pair well with Boyle and does have a good shot from the point.

And again to be clear ... I am not arguing this is the solution. There are large numbers of players that I would prefer well before Beauchemin who is only a partial solution. But actually getting any of the players available and making a trade that isn't sacrificing a top 6 winger or valuable prospects and picks will not be easy. Like SJEasy, I don't think anyone on this board will be happy with the options that we do have prior to the trade deadline. And yes, again, this isn't the best choice.
You are right in that the environment can play a big part of a players success, however, are you willing to take that risk at the cost of asset's and 3.8m in cap space? Maybe he'll have a revival here, maybe he won't.

As for the BTN stats, I'd like to hear Easy's analysis of that. It's strange because I've watched him play quite a bit and the stats do not seem to reflect his play.

Pairing him with Boyle is probably the right option, however that leaves you pairing Murray with Vlasic, which is not ideal (I'd rather pair Murray with Demers) or moving Vlasic down to the 3rd pairing with Wallin (back to that terrible pairing again).

Ideally:
Boyle - Beauchemin
Murray - Demers
Vlasic - Huskins/Braun
Wallin

Murray nor Vlasic belong on the bottom pairing though and should be getting more ice time than either Demers or Braun, so even those pairing do not really work. Plus a PF will probably point out, Wallin being scratched is pretty unlikely.

Boyle - Beauchemin
Murray - Vlasic
Demers - Wallin

Meh. I just don't think either of those is substantially better than what we have now, and it costs us cap space and assets.

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01-03-2011, 02:20 PM
  #70
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Would rather have Kaberle, I wouldnt mind seeing our 1st go for him, throw in Mcginn or Joslin if we could get back Mcarthur

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01-03-2011, 02:25 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Maximus74 View Post
Leaf fan - I come in pieces (lol)...

I'm surprised that more of you wouldn't be excited about adding Beauchemin...

Yes he's not Pronger or Lidstrom, but he's playing on an awful team with no system (Ron Wilson is a terrible coach for the Leafs)...

He plays 20+ a night, is a good shot blocker and was a the #3 guy on a Stanley Cup winner a few years ago...

If he came at a reasonable price, you guys would do well to have him...
My thoughts exactly.

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01-03-2011, 03:09 PM
  #72
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id enjoy him Beauchimen for prospects only (No Petrecki or Doherty though)

Beauch

Joslin
McGinn
1st

I dunno if they do it but i know i do.

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01-03-2011, 03:10 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Maximus74 View Post
Leaf fan - I come in pieces (lol)...

I'm surprised that more of you wouldn't be excited about adding Beauchemin...

Yes he's not Pronger or Lidstrom, but he's playing on an awful team with no system (Ron Wilson is a terrible coach for the Leafs)...

He plays 20+ a night, is a good shot blocker and was a the #3 guy on a Stanley Cup winner a few years ago...

If he came at a reasonable price, you guys would do well to have him...
We don't have a Neidermayer or Pronger to play him with and 3.8m for a player in which his best attribute is shot blocking...

IMO, Pass.

But with DW, he's probably thinking one of or both of Huskins and Wallin could be traded sometime this season or gone at seasons end and could see Beauch as a filler.

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01-03-2011, 03:26 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Seto - Unless you can give us your 1st rounder to start off, no. Still RFA. No rush here to trade him unless its for a SIGNIFICANT UPGRADE.
Your cap can't handle a significant upgrade.

I'll counter with a cap friendly and - hopefully - a well rounded offer to the different perceived needs for SAN (of which I may be way wrong):

[MTL]
Yannick Weber - RH-D (RFA) - promising puck mover with a heck of a shot - fair defensively but still young and his development has not peaked - Mentored by Boyle he could turn into a gem.

Danny Kristo - RH-RW (NCAA) - Was key to USA.Jr team. Speed & Skill. A very high prospect for MTL.

Rights to Alexei Yemelin (KHL) - LH-D - Has all the requirement of a defensive stalwart - Is proven and recognized in the KHL.

[SAN]
Devin Setoguchi

Thoughts?

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Old
01-03-2011, 04:02 PM
  #75
rangerssharks414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuckInTheNet View Post
id enjoy him Beauchimen for prospects only (No Petrecki or Doherty though)

Beauch

Joslin
McGinn
1st

I dunno if they do it but i know i do.
I will puke if we give up a first round pick for Beauchemin.

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