Oilers should be selling at the trade deadline but no one under 30.
That's too much of a generalization IMO.
Rebuilding doesn't mean to just ice as many young players as possible. You also need veterans to play with them and mentor them.
Basically you should focuss on a core of maybe 4-5 players that you consider to be an integral part of your team in the future and then try to develop them.
Complementary players exist dime a dozen and don't need to be developed, except they are really extraordinary in what the do.
But we definitely have no players like that currently
I generally think that many people here tend to fall in love with certain young players for some reason and then never give up, even if it's too late and the rebuild is a good reason to go for them to go.
Cogs again is the example therefor: First he is a real scorer, who just needs to find his game again, then he has the chance to model him into a top tier defensive forward and now it's just the rebuild that interdicts to trade away young players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskyToHall
Gagner is already a 2nd line center, he's 21, why can't he improve?
I guess him stagnating on the same points total for the 4th straight season in an age where other young players tend to explode, makes some people guess.
Examples like Cogs have painfully shown what happens when you hang onto a player, that doesn't seem to be able to progress on your team, for too long.
That's too much of a generalization IMO.
Rebuilding doesn't mean to just ice as many young players as possible. You also need veterans to play with them and mentor them.
Basically you should focuss on a core of maybe 4-5 players that you consider to be an integral part of your team in the future and then try to develop them.
Complementary players exist dime a dozen and don't need to be developed, except they are really extraordinary in what the do.
But we definitely have no players like that currently
I generally think that many people here tend to fall in love with certain young players for some reason and then never give up, even if it's too late and the rebuild is a good reason to go for them to go.
Cogs again is the example therefor: First he is a real scorer, who just needs to find his game again, then he has the chance to model him into a top tier defensive forward and now it's just the rebuild that interdicts to trade away young players.
I guess him stagnating on the same points total for the 4th straight season in an age where other young players tend to explode, makes some people guess.
Examples like Cogs have painfully shown what happens when you hang onto a player, that doesn't seem to be able to progress on your team, for too long.
What I meant is that Hemsky and Penner should not be traded. If there are some older players on this team that would rather be winning right now as apposed to rebuilding than I think those guys should be traded.
I don't see a lot of actions. I think Penner and Hemmer will be shoped quietly and if an offer blows them away they take it. However I dont' see a offer blowing them away. AFter that.
Vandermeer for a 5 round pick.
Studs for a 10 round pick, if those even exists.
nothing special. We are going to get young talent at the draft not the trade deadline.
That basically leaves us Smid, Gilbert, Brule, O'Marra, Fraser, Stortini, SMac, Deslauriers, To trade for a good 1st/2nd pairing Dman, and/or maybe some prospects.
Last edited by Wickedness*: 01-04-2011 at 06:50 AM.
Why would having four solid centers be a bad idea?
Couturier
Gagner
Horcoff
Lander
That batch of centers is cup-worthy, assuming that Couturier and Lander both fulfill their potential. Trading Gagner changes that.
If the Oilers are lucky enough to draft Couturier, then this might well be how it goes in a couple of years. Though suggesting that this group is cup-worthy is at this point perhaps being somewhat optimistic.
I don't think I suggested that Gagner is definitely out the door, simply that it is not idiotic to think about dealing him if the right cards fell into place.
I've been on Gagner's side since the beginning, and have advocated patience. But we do need to acknowledge that right now he appears like he is going to be a solid number two. His strength is his hockey sense. His weakness is quite literally, his weakness. I could live with the idea of a center who has difficulty winning battles if he can compensate with exceptional skill. Unfortunately, at this point I am not seeing that from Gagner to the degree I had hoped. He's young, so it might come. But it also might not
And it also depends on other moves. If it was
Hall Couturier Eberle
Penner Gagner Hemksy
then I can be more comfortable, because Penner is there to do the serious lifting and to make life a lot easier for Gagner.
We're loaded with left wingers. Penner would be the most likely, IMO.
Cogliano we know has been on the block over the last while, so I can see that happening. Maybe one of Vandermeer or Foster on the blue.
I know enough not to expect anything though. This is the Tambo show.
What I meant is that Hemsky and Penner should not be traded. If there are some older players on this team that would rather be winning right now as apposed to rebuilding than I think those guys should be traded.
Not to go off topic but but does anyone else wonder about the connection between the so called leadership on this team getting reduced to Penner and Hemsky because of injuries and the teams more glaring inability to show up for the start of games?
Hemsky is a thinking mans player, he has never been a go out and take the bull by the horns but instead kinda lies in wait for his opportunity.
In Penner you have a guy that a cardiologist would find difficult to detect a heartbeat from. The guy shows up one period out of three, just like the Oilers have been doing.
I think Hemsky could work here but Penner is still the poster child for what's missing from this team attitudinally.
Everyone wants to acquire youth and picks. How about a veteran who can still score a pretty good clip. A guy who is 27-30 with about 10 to 12 good years left if things go the way they should.
That said, I guess none of these guys are available. Or am I missing someone? Someone who has a circumstance that makes them available.
I don't know about just the deadline but there is alot of fat to trim. Some of it to be given away at a bargain as an addition by subtraction and some could probably fetch something useable back.
At any rate, taking the opposite approach of who they can look to build around in an effort to be better next year and beyond I see;
Here is what I can see going:
Penner- Until LA trades for another left winger Penner would look good there
Cogs-No room for him next year
Vandermeer- He won't be here next year
Jones- If we can't sign him trade him
Gilbert- Probally can't get that lucky though
Penner or Hemsky you have to look at moving. If you can get a 1st round pick and a good prospect like Schenn then do it.
Cogliano and Brule have little value, they might get a late draft pick if someone still thinks they might have something but most likely teams see them as future waiver wire pickups or ufa and will be unwilling to give up much save possibly another young player who hasnt really made it yet.
Smid probably has some value. He's a decent young D-man who might just bloom into a full time player yet. Might get a late first or else a second round pick for him. I dont think it's in the Oilers best interest to trade him yet with the sad state of our blueline.
Vandermeer will probably get you a 3rd round pick at the deadline. He'll be a decent depth pickup for a playoff contender and wont have much left on his contract by then.
Fraser isnt really good enough at anything to have any value, we'd be lucky to get back the pick we gave up to get him.
Not to go off topic but but does anyone else wonder about the connection between the so called leadership on this team getting reduced to Penner and Hemsky because of injuries and the teams more glaring inability to show up for the start of games?
Hemsky is a thinking mans player, he has never been a go out and take the bull by the horns but instead kinda lies in wait for his opportunity.
In Penner you have a guy that a cardiologist would find difficult to detect a heartbeat from. The guy shows up one period out of three, just like the Oilers have been doing.
I think Hemsky could work here but Penner is still the poster child for what's missing from this team attitudinally.
I disagree 100% with your assessment of Penner. Especially with respect to him wearing the A. In particular, I find it tough to understand all the claims of Penner only showing up one period a game, or claims like the ones we hear all the time about him only playing 20 games a year. Were any of this true we would be looking at a guy who should then be scoring 70+ goals and 110 points per year. Does anyone really think the guy is capable of that.
I'm not sure what people want him to do. He is one of the team's scoring leaders both in terms of points and goals. He is effective on both the powerplay and the penalty kill. He meshes well with who ever he plays with. And he creates a lot more room on the ice for his linemates than any other Oiler.
He is very responsible defensivley, and is almost never beat one on one.
He's a big guy who does not throw thundering checks so everyone thinks he's lazy. He keeps up with the speedsters but does not appear to be lumbering so everyone thinks he's coasting. He stands in front of the net occupying at least one and often two defensemen on the pp and is impossible to move. While this may not seem to take effort, it is exhausting work. He can dominate physically, is by far the best on the team along the boards, and shows his power to create opportunities for himself and his linemates. But then people ask why this does not happen every shift, even though he is at times the only guy on the team who does this at all.
He is also one of the few Oilers who actually stands up for his teammates after a cheap shot. This is the quality of a leader.
Watch the goal Hemsky scored against Colorado. He collapses a guy in his own crease to start the play, and then not only screens Anderson but runs both defensemen into him giving Hemsky all the room in the world. This is not something a 245lb guy can do every shift without collapsing from exhaustion, but it is something that almost no one else on this team is even capable of.
So is Penner perfect? No. Does he always give it 100%? No. Has he been frustrating to watch at times? Yes. But which Oiler vet has not.
At this point if the Oilers could keep only one of Penner or Hemsky, I would choose Penner in a heart beat. And if it were up to me he would keep the A permanently.
So is Penner perfect? No. Does he always give it 100%? No. Has he been frustrating to watch at times? Yes. But which Oiler vet has not.
Obviously we disagree in general but on this part I would say you're right and he is nothing if not symbolic of how much better this team needs to be.
One thing that needs repeating throughout your argument is - 'on one of the worst teams in the league for consecutive seasons.'
It's not enough, he's not doing enough and as the team gets better he will start to look worse and worse.
But given how bad this team is, he does look like more of a player and probably has more value now than he will down the road. I say capitalize on that and punt him while you can.
Edit; Just to add after re-reading my post and your reply, my post was not assessing Penner's play in general (although obvioulsy I am happy to do so) it was pointing out that the team seems to have had problems in the effort/passion department since Hemsky and Penner have been put in the primary leadership role. Is it incorrect to say that Penner regularily lacks conviction in how he plays the game and for a team that needs leadership by example now more than ever, those two players are probably the opposite of what they actually need right now?
Last edited by copperandblue: 01-04-2011 at 02:47 PM.
I disagree 100% with your assessment of Penner. Especially with respect to him wearing the A. In particular, I find it tough to understand all the claims of Penner only showing up one period a game, or claims like the ones we hear all the time about him only playing 20 games a year. Were any of this true we would be looking at a guy who should then be scoring 70+ goals and 110 points per year. Does anyone really think the guy is capable of that.
I'm not sure what people want him to do. He is one of the team's scoring leaders both in terms of points and goals. He is effective on both the powerplay and the penalty kill. He meshes well with who ever he plays with. And he creates a lot more room on the ice for his linemates than any other Oiler. He is very responsible defensivley, and is almost never beat one on one.
He's a big guy who does not throw thundering checks so everyone thinks he's lazy. He keeps up with the speedsters but does not appear to be lumbering so everyone thinks he's coasting. He stands in front of the net occupying at least one and often two defensemen on the pp and is impossible to move. While this may not seem to take effort, it is exhausting work. He can dominate physically, is by far the best on the team along the boards, and shows his power to create opportunities for himself and his linemates. But then people ask why this does not happen every shift, even though he is at times the only guy on the team who does this at all.
He is also one of the few Oilers who actually stands up for his teammates after a cheap shot. This is the quality of a leader.
Watch the goal Hemsky scored against Colorado. He collapses a guy in his own crease to start the play, and then not only screens Anderson but runs both defensemen into him giving Hemsky all the room in the world. This is not something a 245lb guy can do every shift without collapsing from exhaustion, but it is something that almost no one else on this team is even capable of.
So is Penner perfect? No. Does he always give it 100%? No. Has he been frustrating to watch at times? Yes. But which Oiler vet has not.
At this point if the Oilers could keep only one of Penner or Hemsky, I would choose Penner in a heart beat. And if it were up to me he would keep the A permanently.
Agreed 175% with the bolded parts. Penner is a beast even though he doesn't always look it. I LOVE watching/having him on the pk...he's awesome, hands down.
That being said, i'm not comfortable losing either him OR Hemsky as both bring different skills to the team that will be needed going forward IMO. However...if i HAD to choose one to go, and i loathe to say it being he is one of my fav Oilers of all time - it would be Hemsky. Penner's size, skill, and ruggedness all make a difference in the decision - but it's his DURABILITY that would be the deal breaker.
When it comes to Penner I would trade 5 goals for 3 fights. Penner is the only top 6 forward that can use his size to create space for himself and for his teammates. When he doesn't bring that than the oilers look really small.
If the Oilers have decent* offers for any of the following players, they should be strongly considered by the deadline:
Vandermeer
Smid**
Cogliano**
Fraser
Jacques
MacIntyre
Strudwick
Foster
Jones
Stortini
Brule**
*what kind of offer qualifies as "decent" will still be different for each player, of course
** Depending on one's view of the long term potential with these players.
I think all of these guys aside from Smid and Jones can be had for fairly little. Cogs might need a bit more, being a former first round pick and everything. The rest, give us a late pick and you can have him. Most of this list, I think, are probably untradeable though.
When it comes to Penner I would trade 5 goals for 3 fights. Penner is the only top 6 forward that can use his size to create space for himself and for his teammates. When he doesn't bring that than the oilers look really small.
He is just not that type of player nor should he be. Once one gets over that expectation for him he is still pretty good. The problem is he is the only big forward in the top six we need a big center so bad it hurts. And no he should be turned in to a center. I think he gets traded and PRV takes his spot. I just hope its for a big center. We need Couturier or we need to trade for one ASAP.
That basically leaves us Smid, Gilbert, Brule, O'Marra, Fraser, Stortini, SMac, Deslauriers, To trade for a good 1st/2nd pairing Dman, and/or maybe some prospects.
I doubt Arnott would return here. I am actually thinking that he will retire. And does Brewer have enough left in the tank to be a legitimate top pair guy? I'm also quite sure that we can do better than Vandermeer as our number 7, and that Gilbert will almost certainly not be tradeable. Personally, I would love to see Foster moved, if at all possible.
First let me say that I have no problem if you see it differently. That's what this board is about.
I did read your post, and was actually responding to the part about Penner's lack of effort equating to lack of leadership. Specifically, the comment that he only plays one period per game and that the issues with poor play in the first might be attributable to Hemsky and Penner being given leadership roles.
I don't buy the premise. The Oilers issues with play in the first period were just as significant before Penner got the A. In fact, playing 60 minutes was a problem a problem last year as well even when Penner was at his absolute best. Moreover, in the recent Colorado game where the first was a disaster, the two guys who actually showed up to play from the get go were Penner and Hemsky.
I actually think that since he got the A that Penner in particular has been more animated, and far more emotional on the ice. I've said that for the first time it looks to me like he views himself as a full on Oiler. I actually think it is more likely that he stays now than at anytime since he has been here.
But aside from all of that, I don't think the guy gets nearly enough credit for the effort he puts in. In part this is because he is a beast and people want him to be crushing people all the time. While he is not a big hitter he probably leads the league in rag-dolling defensemen.
You don't need the guy to be dominant 60 minutes a game to be a leader. I'm going to assume you were old enough to watch Messier with the Oilers, and if so you know that he spent a great deal of the time looking like he was on cruise. Of course Penner is no Messier, but you have to pick your spots if you want to survive an 82 game schedule in the NHL.
There is no evidence at all to suggest that as the team gets better Penner will get worse. His role might change, but its actually a tribute to the big guy that he can adjust to what ever is asked of him.
We've seen the more overt type of heart on the sleeve guy in Moreau. He ended up being a rather selfish parady of what a real leader should be. Penner may not be Mike Richards, but he regularly delivers a lot of bang for the buck. If players don't respect that then it might be time for many of them to look in the mirror.
Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
Obviously we disagree in general but on this part I would say you're right and he is nothing if not symbolic of how much better this team needs to be.
One thing that needs repeating throughout your argument is - 'on one of the worst teams in the league for consecutive seasons.'
It's not enough, he's not doing enough and as the team gets better he will start to look worse and worse.
But given how bad this team is, he does look like more of a player and probably has more value now than he will down the road. I say capitalize on that and punt him while you can.
Edit; Just to add after re-reading my post and your reply, my post was not assessing Penner's play in general (although obvioulsy I am happy to do so) it was pointing out that the team seems to have had problems in the effort/passion department since Hemsky and Penner have been put in the primary leadership role. Is it incorrect to say that Penner regularily lacks conviction in how he plays the game and for a team that needs leadership by example now more than ever, those two players are probably the opposite of what they actually need right now?
There is no evidence at all to suggest that as the team gets better Penner will get worse. His role might change, but its actually a tribute to the big guy that he can adjust to what ever is asked of him.
That's not what I was driving at. Penner is Penner.
He is very similar to the guy he was when he got here and will be veruy similar next year. What has changed is the team aroudn hima nd the circumstances that he is playing under.
He looked horrible on a team of hard working players, he has looked like dynamite as one of the real NHLers on a banged up AHL squad last year and he looks comfortable amongst a line up of raw rookies even though he hasn't exactly seperated himself from the pack.
What happens as the rookies grow as players? He is going to start looking worse than he does now. It's all optics but optics that can be capitalized on.
Obviously I dispute your take, I don't see him participating the way you describe and I certainly don't see a parrallel betwen how Messier and he play the game. In his hayday the other team always knew where Messier was on the ice, no matter who else was on with him or in the line up beside him.
I don't think the same can be said for Penner and if it is, it's because he is one of the few NHLers on the team and is a focus by default.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier
We've seen the more overt type of heart on the sleeve guy in Moreau. He ended up being a rather selfish parady of what a real leader should be. Penner may not be Mike Richards, but he regularly delivers a lot of bang for the buck. If players don't respect that then it might be time for many of them to look in the mirror.
Moreau has nothing to do with Penner being ineffective. No doubt his time here ended poorly and Moreau was probably miscast as a captain but you can't escape that his effort and determination rubbed off for a lot of years and those teams, although mediocre, were competitive.
Unfortunately he became a scape goat, one of many, by overly emotional fans. Now he is gone and yet the team sucks as much as they ever have. Penner represents the demise of this team as well as anyone. He was here when it started and he is still here today when they struggle to climb out of the basement. In other words his track record has been established.
That's not what I was driving at. Penner is Penner.
He is very similar to the guy he was when he got here and will be veruy similar next year. What has changed is the team aroudn hima nd the circumstances that he is playing under.
He looked horrible on a team of hard working players, he has looked like dynamite as one of the real NHLers on a banged up AHL squad last year and he looks comfortable amongst a line up of raw rookies even though he hasn't exactly seperated himself from the pack.
What happens as the rookies grow as players? He is going to start looking worse than he does now. It's all optics but optics that can be capitalized on.
You seem to be suggesting that there has been no growth in Penner's game. I simply do not agree with this. Nor do I buy the premise that he will somehow look worse as the team improves. There is no evidence to support this.
Penner played quite well in his first year as an Oiler. He was out of shape, and that was not something I would condone. But that is a thing of the past, so even that indicates growth as a professional. Even so, he still got the job done as well as most on the Oilers, and was still one of the team's best guys on the cycle and down low.
To be honest I don't even think he was that bad for much of his second year compared with his teammates. He was obviously not MacTavish's guy, but was far from the biggest problem the Oilers had. But even if Penner was horrible as you say. Who were these hard workers that you are speaking of, the guys that were no longer part of the team last year, especially the first month or so when Penner was on fire?
Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
Obviously I dispute your take, I don't see him participating the way you describe and I certainly don't see a parrallel betwen how Messier and he play the game. In his hayday the other team always knew where Messier was on the ice, no matter who else was on with him or in the line up beside him.
I don't think the same can be said for Penner and if it is, it's because he is one of the few NHLers on the team and is a focus by default.
I never meant to suggest that Penner and Messier were similar players or had similar impact. Teams knew where Messier was because he was an explosive guy and also one of the dirtiest players of his time. He would have no issue with taking a players head off if the opportunity arose.
The comment was made based on the fact that even one of the best leaders of all time picked his spots. So the fact that Penner does not play at 100% shift in an shift out does not make him unique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by copperandblue
Moreau has nothing to do with Penner being ineffective. No doubt his time here ended poorly and Moreau was probably miscast as a captain but you can't escape that his effort and determination rubbed off for a lot of years and those teams, although mediocre, were competitive.
Unfortunately he became a scape goat, one of many, by overly emotional fans. Now he is gone and yet the team sucks as much as they ever have. Penner represents the demise of this team as well as anyone. He was here when it started and he is still here today when they struggle to climb out of the basement. In other words his track record has been established.
You began by claiming that Penner has no heart. Or at least that a cardiologist would have trouble finding it. I claimed he might not wear it on his sleeve like Moreau, but that does not in itself mean he cannot lead.
The Oilers were not more competeive because of guys like Moreau's effort rubbing off on the team. They were more competetive because they had better players.
There are lots of thisngs one can be critical of with this years squad. But I don't believe you can say they don't put the effort in.
