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Value of Oilers' at the trade deadline?

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Old
01-04-2011, 05:36 PM
  #76
copperandblue
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
You seem to be suggesting that there has been no growth in Penner's game. I simply do not agree with this.
Yeah that's fair to point out. Penner has shown growth, he plays a much more mature game now than he did when he got here so I will concede that.

But we are talking about a player that I would say still hasn't realized his potential and that's a real sore spot for me. He took a couple steps but his career demanded he takes a couple leaps. At this point he is what he is and is very unlikely to see anyfurther benchmarks in the growth of his game.

So, yes he has shown improvement but he still leaves me wanting given the glimpses he still offers every so often.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Who were these hard workers that you are speaking of, the guys that were no longer part of the team last year, especially the first month or so when Penner was on fire?
Yes, the guys that are no longer here.

I think it's safe to say that we are each quite galvanized in our opinions of how Penner performed in his first few years. It is what it is.

That said, no matter what angle you want to present it at it is still ultimately that of a player on a crappy hockey team. If this team is going to get better they need players that will get them there, has Penner shown any ability to get this team beyond where it has been? Is?

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
The comment was made based on the fact that even one of the best leaders of all time picked his spots. So the fact that Penner does not play at 100% shift in an shift out does not make him unique.
A hall of famer can be afforded the odd shift off, although I dispute the similarity is as close as you suggest it is.

A player like Penner really can't.

As an individual he hasn't accomplished anything that would suggest that he bought himself that priveledge.

I would also add that when Messier was at his worst for that it was in his first couple years as a very young 4th liner and it almost cost him his spot on the team. A much different situation from a guy that is in his late 20's and by virtue of his contract has nothing hanging over his head as a motivator.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
You began by claiming that Penner has no heart. Or at least that a cardiologist would have trouble finding it. I claimed he might not wear it on his sleeve like Moreau, but that does not in itself mean he cannot lead.
What I was implying is that this team seems to be echoing how it's two (I include Hemsky in that by virtue of how he plays the game as well) veteran leaders play the game.

Which is selectively and not every single shift as hard as they can. I still say it's a fair comment to describe Penner and Hemsky that way. I also think this team needs a player that will play inspired balls out hockey every shift, Moreau did it in a brash way, Horcoff was doing it with his work boots. Penner and Hemsky?

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
There are lots of thisngs one can be critical of with this years squad. But I don't believe you can say they don't put the effort in.
I think you can very much critisize this group for not playing with a full effort every game.

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01-04-2011, 06:38 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Yeah that's fair to point out. Penner has shown growth, he plays a much more mature game now than he did when he got here so I will concede that.

But we are talking about a player that I would say still hasn't realized his potential and that's a real sore spot for me. He took a couple steps but his career demanded he takes a couple leaps. At this point he is what he is and is very unlikely to see anyfurther benchmarks in the growth of his game.

So, yes he has shown improvement but he still leaves me wanting given the glimpses he still offers every so often.
This sounds like there is still potential growth in the big fella.



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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post


Yes, the guys that are no longer here.
The only two plays of any note who were on the Oil in 2008-2009 (Penner's terrible year if you like) but who were not around for the 2009-2010 season were Cole and Brodziak.

Now I will give you that Cole was a hard worker, but Brodziak was in the dog house as much as Penner for a lack of effort. So I don't see how this turns what Penner did last year into some sort of mirage.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post


I think it's safe to say that we are each quite galvanized in our opinions of how Penner performed in his first few years. It is what it is.

That said, no matter what angle you want to present it at it is still ultimately that of a player on a crappy hockey team. If this team is going to get better they need players that will get them there, has Penner shown any ability to get this team beyond where it has been? Is?
I would say yes. If Penner plays on a line it has generally performed better than it did before he joined it. THis was true last year and has been true this whole season. I am nit sure what more you can ask of a player than to make things better for the guys he is on the ice with.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post

A hall of famer can be afforded the odd shift off, although I dispute the similarity is as close as you suggest it is.

A player like Penner really can't.

As an individual he hasn't accomplished anything that would suggest that he bought himself that priveledge.
This is not a question of entitlement. It is a reality of playing an 82 game schedule in a league that is as demanding as the NHL. Especially for a guy carrying 245lbs. (If you don't believe that makes a difference, go ask any offensive lineman how they feel they would do playing corner. )

But I am not going to claim that Penner could not give more. My issue is the degree to which the effort he does give is dismissed.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I would also add that when Messier was at his worst for that it was in his first couple years as a very young 4th liner and it almost cost him his spot on the team. A much different situation from a guy that is in his late 20's and by virtue of his contract has nothing hanging over his head as a motivator.
Messier was a fourth liner for about 10 minutes. Certainly by year two he was part of the Oilers core.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
What I was implying is that this team seems to be echoing how it's two (I include Hemsky in that by virtue of how he plays the game as well) veteran leaders play the game.

Which is selectively and not every single shift as hard as they can. I still say it's a fair comment to describe Penner and Hemsky that way. I also think this team needs a player that will play inspired balls out hockey every shift, Moreau did it in a brash way, Horcoff was doing it with his work boots. Penner and Hemsky?
And yet even with Horcoff and Moreau the results were a 30 place team despite Penner carrying the team on many nights.

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I think you can very much critisize this group for not playing with a full effort every game.
Again, I think that you set a completely unrealistic bar. There have been lapses as there are with every team that has ever set foot on the ice. But on the whole, this team's biggest problem has not been a lack of effort.

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01-05-2011, 10:27 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
This sounds like there is still potential growth in the big fella.
If that's how you see it...

So here is a question, since you seem pretty tuned in to what he is capable of, when can we expect to see that growth? He's been here going on 4 seasons and we are still waiting.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
The only two plays of any note who were on the Oil in 2008-2009 (Penner's terrible year if you like) but who were not around for the 2009-2010 season were Cole and Brodziak.

Now I will give you that Cole was a hard worker, but Brodziak was in the dog house as much as Penner for a lack of effort. So I don't see how this turns what Penner did last year into some sort of mirage.
I was talking about Penner this year VS past years. Obviously it extends well beyond the two you listed.

But here is the thing, pointing at other players who haven't exactly lit the hockey worl on fire is their issue not Penner's. Each player stands alone in how he approaches the game.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I would say yes. If Penner plays on a line it has generally performed better than it did before he joined it. THis was true last year and has been true this whole season. I am nit sure what more you can ask of a player than to make things better for the guys he is on the ice with.
Sure on a last place team.

What can I can ask, how about that the player gets moved down the road and a better one is brought in. Penner is not a guy you win a cup with as a core member.

It shocks me how often fans (not pointing at you necessarily) will bemoan how poorly the team is doing and then defend the players that are resulting in the poor showings until the cows come home.

It's like people don't see the direct connection between players and results.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
This is not a question of entitlement. It is a reality of playing an 82 game schedule in a league that is as demanding as the NHL. Especially for a guy carrying 245lbs. (If you don't believe that makes a difference, go ask any offensive lineman how they feel they would do playing corner. )
That's excuse making. If carrying 245 lbs is an issue then it is just another argument why he is expendible because the fact is he is a big guy...that's not going to change.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
But I am not going to claim that Penner could not give more. My issue is the degree to which the effort he does give is dismissed.
Good timing for this discussing given that the Oilers were beaten on effort by a perennial contender in the middle of January when they were playing one of the worst teams in teh league.

If any team could pull out the free pass on effort card it was the wings last night and yet they didn't. Amazing that they are always near the top of the league.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Messier was a fourth liner for about 10 minutes. Certainly by year two he was part of the Oilers core.
It appears that you don't quit recall Messier's career here as well as you thought you did. I remember quite clearly during his rookie year when as a 4th liner the fans wanted him gone because he was a 'bum'. At any rate there is no connection or reason to discuss Penner in respect to Messier.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
And yet even with Horcoff and Moreau the results were a 30 place team despite Penner carrying the team on many nights.
Is that an actual argument? That Penner 'carried' this 30th place team on many nights? Can he carry a playoff team? Can he inspire a playoff team? We're talking about a guy that is being given core player responsibility now, not a depth player.

Moreau is gone, Horcoff is unmoveable and the team is supposed to be striving to be more than a 30th place team.

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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
Again, I think that you set a completely unrealistic bar. There have been lapses as there are with every team that has ever set foot on the ice. But on the whole, this team's biggest problem has not been a lack of effort.
On a whole this team is in the league basement and not for the first time. I think it's OK to set the bar higher.

Like I said earlier, Detroit coming to town was great timing on what this team needs to strive for and how Penner is looking to fit in to that picture. I have seen more agility, stamina and effort from foozball players compared to what Penner offered last night. The 5th (?) Detroit goal was Penner in a nut shell, 9 guys came up the ice with speed and Penner lolligagged back to the bench for a change. Changing is one thing, dragging bricks on the way to bench and not giving the on coming player a chance to even get into the play is quite another. But I guess he gets props for even doing that because most of the night he was standing in one place waving his stick at the guys going by him...about that leadership thing I was talking about originally....

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01-05-2011, 01:55 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
If that's how you see it...

So here is a question, since you seem pretty tuned in to what he is capable of, when can we expect to see that growth? He's been here going on 4 seasons and we are still waiting.
I've seen substantial growth. I gather you haven't. Though for some strange reason this comment:

Quote:
Yeah that's fair to point out. Penner has shown growth, he plays a much more mature game now than he did when he got here so I will concede that.
comment made me believe for a moment that you had. In the end, other's can judge for themselves



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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I was talking about Penner this year VS past years. Obviously it extends well beyond the two you listed.

But here is the thing, pointing at other players who haven't exactly lit the hockey worl on fire is their issue not Penner's. Each player stands alone in how he approaches the game.
Again, this is the comment I was responding to:

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He looked horrible on a team of hard working players, he has looked like dynamite as one of the real NHLers on a banged up AHL squad last year and he looks comfortable amongst a line up of raw rookies even though he hasn't exactly seperated himself from the pack.
Since he did not look horrible with the Ducks, and he had a decent year his first year in Edmonton, what other years are you talking about. And who are all these hard workers the Oilers had who are no longer here who made him look so bad.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Sure on a last place team.

What can I can ask, how about that the player gets moved down the road and a better one is brought in. Penner is not a guy you win a cup with as a core member.

It shocks me how often fans (not pointing at you necessarily) will bemoan how poorly the team is doing and then defend the players that are resulting in the poor showings until the cows come home.

It's like people don't see the direct connection between players and results.
We disagree about Penner. I think he is one of the few guys on this team you can build around. I'm not convinced that's true of many others including Gagner, Hemsky for example. Of those three, if I could keep only one it would be Penner.

But I also feel that the team they have right now is transitional. As such I really do not care about how many wins they have at this point in the season, or that their fourth line is a disaster.

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That's excuse making. If carrying 245 lbs is an issue then it is just another argument why he is expendible because the fact is he is a big guy...that's not going to change.
This is not an excuse. It's simply a fact. With very few exceptions, guys this size play differently than small players. Would you really expect Penner to play like Reddox.

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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Good timing for this discussing given that the Oilers were beaten on effort by a perennial contender in the middle of January when they were playing one of the worst teams in teh league.

If any team could pull out the free pass on effort card it was the wings last night and yet they didn't. Amazing that they are always near the top of the league.
Your are taking about a game that was decided by a fluke goal late in the third. If the Wing's effort was consistently so much better than that of the Oilers how was it that the Oilers dominated most of the third. Given that they surely have far more talent and experience than the Oilers if they were playing full out for 60 minutes would the score not have been even more one-sided? Is it possible that even the Wings are subject to the ebb and flow of a typical game?



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It appears that you don't quit recall Messier's career here as well as you thought you did. I remember quite clearly during his rookie year when as a 4th liner the fans wanted him gone because he was a 'bum'. At any rate there is no connection or reason to discuss Penner in respect to Messier.
The 10 minute comment was tongue in cheek. Messier struggled for most of year one though he played better late in the year and actually had a decent playoff against the Flyers. By year two he was part of the core, and never looked back.


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Is that an actual argument? That Penner 'carried' this 30th place team on many nights? Can he carry a playoff team? Can he inspire a playoff team? We're talking about a guy that is being given core player responsibility now, not a depth player.

Moreau is gone, Horcoff is unmoveable and the team is supposed to be striving to be more than a 30th place team.
A player can only show leadership on the team in which he plays. Can Hall be a leader? After all, he plays on a 30th place team, so the corollary seems to be no.

You have no evidence to support the claim that he could not be a leader on a better team. In fact, despite the standings this year's team is better in many ways than the 2009-2010 and Penner is becoming more of an overt leader.

That said I also have no definitive evidence to show he is capable since he has yet to have the opportunity. What we are left with are our respective opinions

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01-05-2011, 02:19 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
In fact, despite the standings this year's team is better in many ways than the 2009-2010 ...
Ok I get it, you're a Penner fan. I can't keep up with all the spin anymore...

For this little nugget I do wonder how they are better, if anything they look like they have further to go now in becoming a decent team than they did at almost any point last season.

I'll concede that the dressing room seems better but on the ice this is a bad team. Easily as bad if not worse than last years.

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01-05-2011, 02:35 PM
  #81
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That was a solid debate guys, on the pros and cons of Penner. But the fact of the matter is, him getting traded will come down to whether or not he is willing to sign another deal. I just hope it doesn't come out in the media that he wants a trade. If he says in private that he wants to be dealt, then deal him for the best deal you can get.

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01-05-2011, 02:41 PM
  #82
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That was a solid debate guys, on the pros and cons of Penner. But the fact of the matter is, him getting traded will come down to whether or not he is willing to sign another deal. I just hope it doesn't come out in the media that he wants a trade. If he says in private that he wants to be dealt, then deal him for the best deal you can get.
I agree. And up until very recently I would have put the odds strongly on the side of him wanting to move on.

Moreover, for the right return, I would have no problem with him being traded. But like Hemsky, you don't want to make a mistake.


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01-05-2011, 02:55 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
Ok I get it, you're a Penner fan. I can't keep up with all the spin anymore...

For this little nugget I do wonder how they are better, if anything they look like they have further to go now in becoming a decent team than they did at almost any point last season.

I'll concede that the dressing room seems better but on the ice this is a bad team. Easily as bad if not worse than last years.
This years team is better, no doubt in my mind. We still have huge holes on the roster though so we're in tough until Tambi starts fixing things.

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01-05-2011, 03:01 PM
  #84
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We signed Penner when we shouldn't of, I think it would be better off for the team and player if he was traded away. It is not like we are going to resign him so now is the time to trade him. I would love to know what it would take to get Schenn out of LA starting with Penner and what else we have to add.
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01-05-2011, 03:02 PM
  #85
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Ok I get it, you're a Penner fan. I can't keep up with all the spin anymore...
I am a Penner fan. Though I am not sure that spin has anything to do with it. I responded directly to your claims asking for evidence in support of your position. You provided none, which is your choice. And I am sure Replacement can confirm that while I have been a supporter, I have been critical of him as well.

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For this little nugget I do wonder how they are better, if anything they look like they have further to go now in becoming a decent team than they did at almost any point last season.I'll concede that the dressing room seems better but on the ice this is a bad team. Easily as bad if not worse than last years.
My statement was based on my own sense from having watched every game but one of these games.

I find it hard to imagine that the addition of Hall, Eberle at the expense of Nilsson and O'Sullivan would not be enough to seal the deal. Add to this, the play of Whitney and a big surprise out of Peckham and to an extent Jones and that alone should be enough to make things look better than they did during the worst of last year. After all we are talking about a team that one 1 game in 21 and an 4 in 31 over a two month period.

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01-05-2011, 03:19 PM
  #86
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Whether people like it or not, both Hemsky and Penner are going to be shopped by the Oilers, in fact they probably already are right now.

That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be dealt, but for sure the Oilers are going to gauge what they could back for one or both of them together.

For several teams, a piece like Hemsky or Penner could be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs -- Columbus, St. Louis, Phoenix, Montreal, NY Rangers, Nashville, Anaheim ... I see in that range. Others like L.A., San Jose, Boston, etc. may want to strengthen their rosters for a run.

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01-05-2011, 03:24 PM
  #87
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I see this team being more comptetitive this year. They are showing way more effort and there are more signs that they are trying to win compared to last year where they seemed to just give up for a long stretch. They are still not a good team and there are a lot of things that need to change before they will be but you can at least see a vague outline of the way forward.

As for Penner I wish he was a more aggresive player but I've come to accept that he is what he is and that he's not going to change. He's good at what he does and if he had that one more element to his game he'd be a great player. As it is he's a valuable player and will have value in a trade, that's why you have to see what he can get you. Free agency is coming up and he may decide to test those waters, same holds true for Hemsky. To make this team better long term, one or both of them may have to move and management has to be trying to make deals for them.

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01-05-2011, 03:56 PM
  #88
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Though I am not sure that spin has anything to do with it. I responded directly to your claims asking for evidence in support of your position. You provided none, which is your choice.
Spin has everything to do with it. My point, maybe more clarity was needed, was that Penner's lackadaisical approach to the game makes him a suspect leader on a team stacked with futures that needs to learn how to play the right way. Given that he has already been put in a position of leader he can hardly be relegated to follower at this point and as such should be a contender to get shipped out.

From there the conversation went to Penner VS past players, Penner VS past leaders, Penner as a key cog on a bad team to Penner being handicapped by his size (which was supposed to be an asset) to it being OK to take nights off, having the bar set to high for a 30th or 28th team in the league, to inexplicably suggesting that the way last nights game played out was an indictement on the Wings and not the Oilers for showing up forty minutes late. None of which really addresses the issue of Penner not being a consistant performer and as such isn't the best leader.

I don't know what to tell you, it all reads as spin and excuse making.

You said you want proof, my proof is the same as yours. It's all anecdotal based on observation and quite clearly a difference in memory.

Almost down to the 'T' I categorically disagree with almost all of the observations you made. Not in the sense that Penner can't or won't do any of it but that he is as consistant and effective as you believe he is and certainly that he is a good leader because of how he has done it.

I don't mean to come off as an ass in saying any of that, it's just clear that we don't see him the same way.

Honest question though, how do you rate Penner's game from last night? Just Penner's though. For me that was quite representative of what kind of player he is and I am curious if that was acceptable in your eyes.

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I find it hard to imagine that the addition of Hall, Eberle at the expense of Nilsson and O'Sullivan would not be enough to seal the deal. Add to this, the play of Whitney and a big surprise out of Peckham and to an extent Jones and that alone should be enough to make things look better than they did during the worst of last year. After all we are talking about a team that one 1 game in 21 and an 4 in 31 over a two month period.
Sure Hall and Eberle and PRV are all an upgrade on what we saw last year...for the glimpses of what they can be. Not for what they necessarily are. Look I totally get the optimism with these guys but without those guys distracting us what are they left with, right now, this season?

Their place in the standings are pretty close to last year, so improvement there is pretty much non existent, PK? PP? GA? GF? ...they all prorate out to pretty much the same at this point. This team isn't better it just has more future promise. There is a difference between the two.

Here is the kicker though, last year was supposed have been bad because the room was a mess (this year it's not), the coaching had no plan (this year it does) and they suffered 500+ man games to injury (this year isn't even close) so despite having those advantages they nothing has translated to improvement on the ice.

Based on that...I say they're worse.

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01-05-2011, 04:29 PM
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Here is the kicker though, last year was supposed have been bad because the room was a mess (this year it's not), the coaching had no plan (this year it does) and they suffered 500+ man games to injury (this year isn't even close) so despite having those advantages they nothing has translated to improvement on the ice.

Based on that...I say they're worse.
I think your wrong. Gagner is on pace for 55 points, a career best and Horcoff was looking way better this year so we were much better down the middle (scary as that is to say).

Our +/- numbers are not nearly as bad suggesting they're playing a lot better at even strength and except for a small stretch where they were getting shelled we've been losing a lot of 1 goal games which again indicates we're more competitive.

I think the injuries have hurt just as much this year as they did last year. Whitney is better than any defenceman we were missing last year and having lost him really hurts the team. Horcoff improved his play this year and that was helping the team while he was here, losing him to injury hurt the team.

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01-05-2011, 04:39 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
We signed Penner when we shouldn't of, I think it would be better off for the team and player if he was traded away. It is not like we are going to resign him so now is the time to trade him. I would love to know what it would take to get Schenn out of LA starting with Penner and what else we have to add.
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What are you talking about?! All it cost us was Tyler Myers...and a 2nd....and a 3rd, I doubt Myers could crack our incredible blueline

P.S. Do I REALLY need the sarcasm symbol?

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01-05-2011, 04:45 PM
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Whether people like it or not, both Hemsky and Penner are going to be shopped by the Oilers, in fact they probably already are right now.

That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be dealt, but for sure the Oilers are going to gauge what they could back for one or both of them together.

For several teams, a piece like Hemsky or Penner could be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs -- Columbus, St. Louis, Phoenix, Montreal, NY Rangers, Nashville, Anaheim ... I see in that range. Others like L.A., San Jose, Boston, etc. may want to strengthen their rosters for a run.
I don't think they are shopping Hemsky...yet. A month or so ago Darren Dreger said on Stauffer's show that the Oilers were shopping Penner, but other GM's were only interested in Hemsky. I believe come trade deadline they will shop Hemmer, and if they deal him will get a great deal for him. With Penner I believe he is the classic case of waiting until the last minute. Not 1 team in the league isn't going to be interested in a 6'4, 240 pound top 6 forward. With both guys to get the best return we would have to swallow 3-4 mil but as long as there isn't more than 1 more season on that contract I would have no problem at all with that.


Last edited by Zach and Slater: 01-05-2011 at 05:18 PM.
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01-05-2011, 04:51 PM
  #92
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I don't get the post. You want to go through all the individual positives and in turn I will go through the negatives, we will throw them back and forth until we end up doing the same for last year's squad and when we are done we will be left at the same place? Which is the team as a whole is not doing any better despite having more favourable conditions to work under.

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I think your wrong. Gagner is on pace for 55 points, a career best and Horcoff was looking way better this year so we were much better down the middle (scary as that is to say).
Gagner is having a good year...alright. Is the team better because of it or is the team just as crappy despite it?

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Our +/- numbers are not nearly as bad suggesting they're playing a lot better at even strength and except for a small stretch where they were getting shelled we've been losing a lot of 1 goal games which again indicates we're more competitive.
The team's goal differential is on pace to be damn near identical.

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I think the injuries have hurt just as much this year as they did last year. Whitney is better than any defenceman we were missing last year and having lost him really hurts the team. Horcoff improved his play this year and that was helping the team while he was here, losing him to injury hurt the team.
Umm ok, Hemsky missed 10 games and Whitney has missed 3 games. Is it worth pointing out that this year's team is pretty close to last years pace but last year's team had injuries from the get go and didn't actually tank till after Christmas?

By that I mean, if you are right (I don't buy it for a second) and this year's injuries (primarily Whitney) are worse then than last year's then we are in for one hell of a painful finish because Whitney has only missed 3 games. This team was pretty much as bad as last year's even before Whitney went down so what the hell are we canwe expect to be in store for now?

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01-05-2011, 05:08 PM
  #93
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Whether people like it or not, both Hemsky and Penner are going to be shopped by the Oilers, in fact they probably already are right now. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be dealt, but for sure the Oilers are going to gauge what they could back for one or both of them together.

For several teams, a piece like Hemsky or Penner could be the difference between playoffs and no playoffs -- Columbus, St. Louis, Phoenix, Montreal, NY Rangers, Nashville, Anaheim ... I see in that range. Others like L.A., San Jose, Boston, etc. may want to strengthen their rosters for a run.
Thread please

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01-05-2011, 05:54 PM
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I don't get the post. You want to go through all the individual positives and in turn I will go through the negatives, we will throw them back and forth until we end up doing the same for last year's squad and when we are done we will be left at the same place? Which is the team as a whole is not doing any better despite having more favourable conditions to work under.
Ok I'll cut out the middle man and just get to the point then. Your claim is that the team is worse this year but as you said the results are similar if not slightly better. I dont believe your claims that last years injuries affected the team more. I think the team is better because players like Hall and Eberle have been developing and improving as the season has gone on as opposed to last year where players like O'Sullivan and Nilsson simply stagnated.

This team obviously still has problems but I think there are signs of hope for the future that didnt exist last season.

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01-05-2011, 05:59 PM
  #95
copperandblue
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Ok I'll cut out the middle man and just get to the point then. Your claim is that the team is worse this year but as you said the results are similar if not slightly better.
Under more favourable conditions.

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I dont believe your claims that last years injuries affected the team more.
Yeah what can I say, I just think that notion is silly.

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... as opposed to last year where players like O'Sullivan and Nilsson simply stagnated.
As opposed to...say...Brule and Cogliano?

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This team obviously still has problems but I think there are signs of hope for the future that didnt exist last season.
Sure, but what about this year, that was the point.

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01-05-2011, 07:44 PM
  #96
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The conditions are not more favorable for this team. It's a team full of rookies just learning the NHL game, last years team had many more veterans even after all the injuries. Cogliano last year had 28 points this year he's on pace for 23 so he's not really much more stagnant this year than he was last, Brule is down but he was the only young guy who really developed last year this season we 3 or 4 new guys showing they could be players in the NHL. This year the team might not achieve more but they have a brighter future, that makes them a better team IMO.

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01-05-2011, 10:36 PM
  #97
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Ok I'll cut out the middle man and just get to the point then. Your claim is that the team is worse this year but as you said the results are similar if not slightly better.
Points (last year): 62
Points (this year): 67

GF (last year): 206 (27th)
GF (this year): 209 (22nd)

SF (last year): 2321 (28th)
SF (this year): 2107 (30th)

GA (last year): 278 (30th)
GA (this year): 270 (30th)

SA (last year): 2714 (27th)
SA (this year): 2772 (27th)

PP% (last year): 17.3% (18th)
PP% (this year): 14.7% (26th)

PK% (last year): 78.0% (26th)
PK% (this year): 73.7% (30th)

FO% (last year): 46.4% (30th)
FO% (this year): 44.7% (29th)


Obviously this season's stats were pro-rated to 82 games, but where have we improved? We're allowing more shots, and shooting less. Our powerplay is worse, and we're actually worse killing penalties and winning faceoffs too, neither of which seemed possible. We have a better shooting percentage which has equated to a 5 point improvement. The team is playing worse, just getting better bounces on both sides of the puck.

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I think the team is better because players like Hall and Eberle have been developing and improving as the season has gone on as opposed to last year where players like O'Sullivan and Nilsson simply stagnated.
Sort of like Cogliano and Brule this year?

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01-06-2011, 10:03 AM
  #98
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Points, goals for and goals against have all improved with a rookie laden lineup as well as position in the standings. We are a better team moving forward, this year not significantly but still better.

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01-06-2011, 10:19 AM
  #99
copperandblue
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Points, goals for and goals against have all improved with a rookie laden lineup as well as position in the standings. We are a better team moving forward, this year not significantly but still better.
But Whitney is the most significant injury this team has had in two years and he has just gone out of the line up, perhaps for the rest of the season.

By your own logic this team is set to nose dive (Is that even possible when standing on the bottom step? at any rate...) with out him.

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01-06-2011, 10:32 AM
  #100
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But Whitney is the most significant injury this team has had in two years and he has just gone out of the line up, perhaps for the rest of the season.

By your own logic this team is set to nose dive (Is that even possible when standing on the bottom step? at any rate...) with out him.
Quite possible, they may end up with less points but that will be because of injuries. If there were no injuries to either team I like what we have this year a lot more than what we had last year. It's better built for long term success, I feel the players they have up front are better as a unit and there are fewer problems on the blueline even if there arent as many strengths. In net Dubnyk looks better than Deslaurier did last year and if Khabibulin goes down Gerber was an adequate fill in.

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