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Three-way PHI-ANA-PHX proposal

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Old
06-24-2004, 12:36 PM
  #51
Gags1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesymc
I posted this proposal on the ducks board and thought Philly would be probably the best team to trade with.

Gagne has been speculated to be traded, and IMO has alittle more value than Sykora because of hes age and lower salary. Prospects like Pitkanen are valued by the beholder. Sometimes they are untradeable, or sometimes the opposite (ie. Keenan was willing to deal Boumeester, Weiss, 7th overall----3 high lottery players for one now).

That is why I thought Pitkanen can be had, Tampa traded 2 2nd rounders and a clutch 2nd line player for him. So if Philly is in need to replace Leclair and Recchi then I believe a trade including Gagne and Joni are possible.

Ozo or Salei, Prospal or 1st rounder, Sykora for Gagne and Pitkanen.

Sykora and Salei should be enough to get one of the 2 players, and Ozo should be enough for the other.
This is one of the most rediculous things i've ever read.

Number 1, Keenan adamantly denied offering Bouwmeester, Weiss, and the 7th overall as that would be a rediculuos trade for Florida to make.

Number 2, it doesn't matter what Pitkanen was traded for. Most considered that deal a complete steal for the flyers at the time and Joni did little to disappoint in his rookie year scoring 25 + points as a rookie getting limited ice time and being asked to play defense first.

Number 3, the last thing the flyers need is defenseman. There top 6 is set with Markov, Johnsson, Pitkanen, Desjardins, Ragnarsson, and Malakhov. They will likely acquire a few d-men for depth near the deadline next season, but nothing until then.

Number 4, where has Gagne been rumored to be traded? He's been offered on this board, but most who don't watch the flyers don't seem to know much about him over the past 2 seasons. People see his numbers have gone down and automatically assume is development has stopped and he's reached his peak. This is not the case. Two years ago he was riddled with injuries and last year he was asked to play on a checking line, one of the best checking lines in the league. He played with a center who scored 7 goals during the season. When he was moved to the 1st line for a 20 game period, he scored more than 10 goals and showed that he still has his scoring ability. He has become one of the most defensively responsible forwards in the entire NHL.

Number 5, Recchi will likely be back and the only guys to replace will be Leclair and Amonte. One will probably be replaced by Umberger, Carter, Richards, or Eager. The other could be replaced by a UFA or from a trade using Michael Handzus.

Number 6, where does Prospal play? Is he better than Zhamnov, Primeau, Roenick, or Handzus? That's four centers who are all arguably better than Vinnie.

Don't expect the flyers to deal youth unless it is for other youth.

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Old
06-24-2004, 02:50 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gags1288

Number 3, the last thing the flyers need is defenseman. There top 6 is set with Markov, Johnsson, Pitkanen, Desjardins, Ragnarsson, and Malakhov. They will likely acquire a few d-men for depth near the deadline next season, but nothing until then.

Number 6, where does Prospal play? Is he better than Zhamnov, Primeau, Roenick, or Handzus? That's four centers who are all arguably better than Vinnie.

.
can you atleast wait until philly re-signs zhamnov and malakhov first?

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Old
06-24-2004, 02:59 PM
  #53
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Not the Flyers would ever make that deal...

...but what is so great about Simon Gagne? Better than Petr Sykora? No way.

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Old
06-24-2004, 03:54 PM
  #54
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Simon Gagne is a better two-way forward than Sykora now. I would have a fit if Clarke traded away both Gagne and Pitkanen under ANY circumstances, and would be very skeptical of any trade involving just one of them. We'd need a huge amount of value coming back (1st round pick/1st line forward, etc.)

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Old
06-24-2004, 05:11 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
First...

To PHI: Petr Sykora, Ruslan Salei, 9th overall

To ANA: Joni Pitkanen, Simon Gagne, 2005 2nd round pick


then...

To PHX: PHI 2005 2nd round pick, Niclas Havelid

To ANA: Mike Johnson


Thoughts?




Absolutely obscene Pitts was 4th overall and he's not worth a 9th pick in THIS draft? I'd love to have Havelid but there's not many on ANAHEIM'S roster that I'd part with Gagne for.

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Old
06-24-2004, 06:57 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
Nope. Not this year anyway. I think the Devils actually had a better record without him.
I find that hard to beleive since the Devils went from the top of the east to #6

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Old
06-24-2004, 07:44 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
can you atleast wait until philly re-signs zhamnov and malakhov first?
I can wait, but according to Clarke it's pretty much a formality. In addition, I can't remember any time the flyers not being able to sign a player they wanted to keep. Also, If either leaves it is likely that they would be replaced via the UFA route.

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Old
06-24-2004, 10:51 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

To PHX: PHI 2005 2nd round pick, Niclas Havelid

To ANA: Mike Johnson


Thoughts?
No thanks.

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Old
06-25-2004, 12:19 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Not the Flyers would ever make that deal...

...but what is so great about Simon Gagne? Better than Petr Sykora? No way.


Last season

Gagne 24G 21A 45P +12

Sykora 23G 29A 52P -9

So we have a 7 point difference between a guy who spent most of the season on a checking line, vs a guy playing on the 1st and 2nd lines.

Just with the trade prop all together, Philly is trying to get younger, and with a lower payroll...it just doesn't make sense for them to send off 2 of their young guns for older and more expensive ones.

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Old
06-25-2004, 05:50 AM
  #60
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Pitkanen and Gagne aren't going anywhere, ok?

It's like the Ducks trading Lupul...

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Old
06-25-2004, 03:27 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gags1288
I can wait, but according to Clarke it's pretty much a formality. In addition, I can't remember any time the flyers not being able to sign a player they wanted to keep. Also, If either leaves it is likely that they would be replaced via the UFA route.

that's dandy, but they aren't signed. zhamnov will get offers from several contenders definitely with how well he played and could easily walk, and malakhov has hinted retirement, it was even being discussed during some of philly's games in the playoffs

it's far from a formality

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Old
06-25-2004, 03:46 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
that's dandy, but they aren't signed. zhamnov will get offers from several contenders definitely with how well he played and could easily walk, and malakhov has hinted retirement, it was even being discussed during some of philly's games in the playoffs

it's far from a formality
The flyers have an option with Malakhov and he has said that he wanted to return and play another year in Philly. As for Zhamnov, sure he could get some offers, he could also be signed before july 1st. The flyers just don't usually have any trouble retaining players they want.

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Old
06-25-2004, 03:51 PM
  #63
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Damn it,Gagne's going nowhere but here! :mad:

Now that I have your attention,i'll just say,quit it,Gagné's staying here.

Unless something comes up that I don't know about

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Old
06-25-2004, 04:04 PM
  #64
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Sykora had an off season last year, and by all means, theres no chance Pitkanen is being dealt, and its highly unlikely Gagne is going anywhere. However, the disparaging remarks made by Flyers fans regarding Sykora are absolutely puzzling. A few seasons ago when Sykora was with the Devils he was seen as a bonifide first liner and a star by pretty much everyone who's a fan of a team in the east. Now that he's playing for a team on the West Coast with a horrible nickname, he's no longer a first liner, no longer a star. Simply a one-dimensional borderline second liner. This, despite he's one year removed from a 35 goal season, 60 pt season. Three time Finalist, Cup winner. Absolutely transparent and laughable. Gange is a fine young player, no disputing that. However, Sykora more than deserves a favorable comparison. He is at least Gagne's peer. They are both fine wingers in this league, and will continue to be so for a good number of years. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but neither is markedly better than the other.

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Old
06-25-2004, 06:14 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson
I find that hard to beleive since the Devils went from the top of the east to #6
Not this year. When Stevens played, in 03/04, the Devils were only a couple games over .500. When he left, their record was alot better.

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Old
06-25-2004, 06:19 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Sykora had an off season last year, and by all means, theres no chance Pitkanen is being dealt, and its highly unlikely Gagne is going anywhere. However, the disparaging remarks made by Flyers fans regarding Sykora are absolutely puzzling. A few seasons ago when Sykora was with the Devils he was seen as a bonifide first liner and a star by pretty much everyone who's a fan of a team in the east. Now that he's playing for a team on the West Coast with a horrible nickname, he's no longer a first liner, no longer a star. Simply a one-dimensional borderline second liner. This, despite he's one year removed from a 35 goal season, 60 pt season. Three time Finalist, Cup winner. Absolutely transparent and laughable. Gange is a fine young player, no disputing that. However, Sykora more than deserves a favorable comparison. He is at least Gagne's peer. They are both fine wingers in this league, and will continue to be so for a good number of years. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, but neither is markedly better than the other.
I have in no way disparaged Sykora, but his value is not equal to or superior to that of Gagne's. He's a very good player, but he's not nearly as versatile, he's older, and has a higher salary. Gagne has consistantly shown his ability to score when on a scoring line and his ability to be a top 5 defensive forward on a checking line. He can do anything a coach asks for and you want him out when the games on the line up a goal or down a goal. IMO, he's the next Jere Lehtinen and if he can balance his offensive game and defensive game, he could be like a Sergei Fedorov or a Mike Modano (who was also molded by Hitch), which is not as likely as it seemed a few years ago.

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Old
06-25-2004, 06:30 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
To PHX: PHI 2005 2nd round pick, Niclas Havelid

To ANA: Mike Johnson


Thoughts?
Well everyone has touched on the first one and I'm going to way in on this one. I don't think that Havelid has a place in PHX. They just picked up Morris to go along with young (but inconsistent) Tanabe and Mara is starting to look very good out there from the few games I seen of him.

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Old
06-25-2004, 06:54 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by islandnucker
Well everyone has touched on the first one and I'm going to way in on this one. I don't think that Havelid has a place in PHX. They just picked up Morris to go along with young (but inconsistent) Tanabe and Mara is starting to look very good out there from the few games I seen of him.
Why would the Coyotes trade their most flexible winger, and key part of the homer line (Nagy - Langkow - Johnson) who is coming off a career year for a 2nd rounder and a Dman they dont need?

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Old
06-25-2004, 08:14 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
Not this year. When Stevens played, in 03/04, the Devils were only a couple games over .500. When he left, their record was alot better.
You are sadly, sadly mistaken. After Stevens went down, the Devils went 18-16-3. With Stevens in the lineup, they were 20-10-8. When he was playing, they were on pace to give up something like 130 goals in the season.

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06-25-2004, 08:27 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adurn
You are sadly, sadly mistaken. After Stevens went down, the Devils went 18-16-3. With Stevens in the lineup, they were 20-10-8. When he was playing, they were on pace to give up something like 130 goals in the season.
Well, it was a Devils fan who told me that they were better after Stevens went down.

BTW, your numbers don't add up to what the Devils record was. You say their record was 38-26-8(Adds up to 72, BTW). Their real record was 43-25-12-2.

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06-25-2004, 09:13 PM
  #71
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They were going to be a bit off because I included OTL's with the loss category. I should have revised it. Didn't realize they were off by this much:

20-9-8-1 with Stevens in the lineup. 23-16-4-1 when he wasn't in the lineup. After Stevens went down, though, the Devils were 7-12-1-1 against playoff teams.

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Old
06-25-2004, 10:25 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adurn
They were going to be a bit off because I included OTL's with the loss category. I should have revised it. Didn't realize they were off by this much:

20-9-8-1 with Stevens in the lineup. 23-16-4-1 when he wasn't in the lineup. After Stevens went down, though, the Devils were 7-12-1-1 against playoff teams.
That's what I thought as well, but like I said, a Devils fan gave me other numbers, and I'm way too lazy to look it up myself.

Also, Brodeur's 9 first-half shutouts(or something like that) fell to 1 second-half shutout, as Stevens didn't play the second half much.

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06-26-2004, 01:55 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gags1288
I have in no way disparaged Sykora, but his value is not equal to or superior to that of Gagne's. He's a very good player, but he's not nearly as versatile, he's older, and has a higher salary. Gagne has consistantly shown his ability to score when on a scoring line and his ability to be a top 5 defensive forward on a checking line. He can do anything a coach asks for and you want him out when the games on the line up a goal or down a goal. IMO, he's the next Jere Lehtinen and if he can balance his offensive game and defensive game, he could be like a Sergei Fedorov or a Mike Modano (who was also molded by Hitch), which is not as likely as it seemed a few years ago.
I hear what you're saying. I think Fedorov or Modano is a huge stretch. Lehitinen is possibly a better comparison, however Gagne has a bit to go. Their trade values probably aren't even, you're right. Sykora's older and more expensive, and thus inherently is less valuable. However, their value where their abilities are concerned is pretty similar.

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Old
06-26-2004, 02:24 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
I hear what you're saying. I think Fedorov or Modano is a huge stretch. Lehitinen is possibly a better comparison, however Gagne has a bit to go. Their trade values probably aren't even, you're right. Sykora's older and more expensive, and thus inherently is less valuable. However, their value where their abilities are concerned is pretty similar.
True, but as you hint at, projections, while somewhat meaningful, aren't absolute either. After all, if we'd predicted what Jimmy Carson would be like after his first couple years, he'd have been thought of as a hall of famer (and IIRC, some people did think that trading him for Gretzky was a mistake at the time). To project Gagne as an MVP-level player, or Pitkanen as a future Norris winner ... it's all pretty silly at this point, since about 80% of the teams in the league have at least one kid that all their fans hold in similar regard, yet they can't all be right.

I'm not sure Sykora wasn't the better player than Gagne when he was the same age Gagne is now. That Sykora didn't really improve much beyond what he was is just more proof that projecting can be tricky business. Of course, this is hfboards, where young players always get overrated because everyone thinks their team's young players will pan out and realize all of their potential.

But if the basis for arguing Gagne being more valuable is that he'll be better at 27, that's pretty weak; it's extrapolation, and while it may be par for the course around here it doesn't count for too much in my book. The salary is really the biggest factor in Gagne being possibly worth more now, but it's hardly a landslide talentwise.

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