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Kostitsyn is exceding expectations / his peers

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Old
01-05-2011, 07:42 PM
  #1
macavoy
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Kostitsyn is exceding expectations / his peers

Andrei Kostitsyn is having pretty much the career that he should be. I don't know why people to expect him to be a superstar, he wasn't a top draft pick like Kane, Toews, Duchene, Malkin etc... People expecting him to be a superstar are out to lunch. He's a 20 goal scorer. People need to realize that.

He was drafted 10th overall in 2003. Lets compare other people who were drafted 10th overall. I'm going to compare older drafts cuz if I go the newer ones, you'll complain that they are younger and not as developed as AK.

2002 Eric Nystrom LW, 20 career goals
2001 a goalie was drafted 10th, Tuomo Ruutu was drafted 9th and has gotten 20+ goals twice and a bunch of 5-15 goal seasons
2000 Mikhail Yakubov 2 NHL goals
1999 Jamie Lundmark never more than 10 goals in a season
1998 goalie was drafted 10th, Nik Antropov was drafted 9th and has only had 2 20 goal seasons
1997 10th & 9th pick were dmen, Sergei Samsonov was 8th had 4 20 goal seasons and a bunch of 15 goal seasons
1996 Erik Rasmussen never reached 20 goals

So the fact that we got someone who can contribute 20ish goals a year is a good thing.

Also if you compare him to Cammy this year, he's only 2 goals behind him and he earns half the salary. I don't know why people expect the world out of him. He's doing better than what other people drafted in his position have done.

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01-05-2011, 07:45 PM
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If his current play meets the organizations expectations of him during his draft year, they never would have drafted him in the position that they did.

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01-05-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Andrei Kostitsyn is having pretty much the career that he should be. I don't know why people to expect him to be a superstar, he wasn't a top draft pick like Kane, Toews, Duchene, Malkin etc... People expecting him to be a superstar are out to lunch. He's a 20 goal scorer. People need to realize that.

He was drafted 10th overall in 2003. Lets compare other people who were drafted 10th overall. I'm going to compare older drafts cuz if I go the newer ones, you'll complain that they are younger and not as developed as AK.

2002 Eric Nystrom LW, 20 career goals
2001 a goalie was drafted 10th, Tuomo Ruutu was drafted 9th and has gotten 20+ goals twice and a bunch of 5-15 goal seasons
2000 Mikhail Yakubov 2 NHL goals
1999 Jamie Lundmark never more than 10 goals in a season
1998 goalie was drafted 10th, Nik Antropov was drafted 9th and has only had 2 20 goal seasons
1997 10th & 9th pick were dmen, Sergei Samsonov was 8th had 4 20 goal seasons and a bunch of 15 goal seasons
1996 Erik Rasmussen never reached 20 goals

So the fact that we got someone who can contribute 20ish goals a year is a good thing.

Also if you compare him to Cammy this year, he's only 2 goals behind him and he earns half the salary. I don't know why people expect the world out of him. He's doing better than what other people drafted in his position have done.
People based their opinion on the fact that they've been told, at the draft, that this kid was the best pure "talent" of the whole draft. They have also been told that without his medical condition, that he would have been a top 5 pick. Nowadays, what people are frustrated about is that it's true that, talentwise, he could be a top winger in this league. We see it sometimes. But when a player "seems" to not work everytime, it becomes frustrating. He has it in him. He doesn't bring it always.

Pretty certain that a consistent effort of 35 goals per year and 65 points would be enough for everybody....pretty sure that's not "superstar" material.

And don't compare drafts. Some are better than others. If you want to make a comparison, you've got to stick within the same draft.

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01-05-2011, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
And don't compare drafts. Some are better than others. If you want to make a comparison, you've got to stick within the same draft.
Exactly. And really do we want to compare with the likes of Carter, Seabrook, Parise, Getzlaf, Kesler, Richards, Perry...

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01-05-2011, 08:08 PM
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Exactly. And really do we want to compare with the likes of Carter, Seabrook, Parise, Getzlaf, Kesler, Richards, Perry...
Agreed. Going back 10 years and comparing who was taken 10th doesn't prove a thing. I'm sure I am one of AKs biggest supporters and I can admit he has been frustrating and underachieving at times, however, I still don't want to give him away. A lock for 20goals and upside to boot. I wouldn't move him for Dustin Penner or anything similar.

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01-05-2011, 08:27 PM
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macavoy
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
People based their opinion on the fact that they've been told, at the draft, that this kid was the best pure "talent" of the whole draft. They have also been told that without his medical condition, that he would have been a top 5 pick. Nowadays, what people are frustrated about is that it's true that, talentwise, he could be a top winger in this league. We see it sometimes. But when a player "seems" to not work everytime, it becomes frustrating. He has it in him. He doesn't bring it always.

Pretty certain that a consistent effort of 35 goals per year and 65 points would be enough for everybody....pretty sure that's not "superstar" material.

And don't compare drafts. Some are better than others. If you want to make a comparison, you've got to stick within the same draft.
The fact is he didn't go top 5. I don't think he is a top 5 talent.

I also think 35 goals is superstar material. Lets look at people who have put up 35 goals 3 times or more in their career in the past 10 years.

Crosby
Ovechkin
Marleau
Gaborik
Kovalchuk
Semin
Heatley
Parise
Carter
Nash
Staal
Hossa
Vanek
Malkin
Iginla
Zetterberg
Lecavalier
Alfredson
Gagne
Sakic
Shannahan


I think you get my point, for you to think he can do that is loltastic. He isn't a superstar and never will be, too think he would ever be is silly.


Last edited by macavoy: 01-05-2011 at 08:45 PM.
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01-05-2011, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The fact is he didn't go top 5. I don't think he is a top 5 talent.

I also think 35 goals is superstar material. Lets look at people who have put up 35 goals 3 times or more in their career in the past 10 years.

Crosby
Ovechkin
Marleau
Gaborik
Kovalchuk
Semin
Heatley
Parise
Burrows
Carter
Nash
Staal
Hossa
Vanek
Malkin
Iginla
Zetterberg
Lecavalier
Alfredson
Gagne
Sakic
Shannahan


I think you get my point, for you to think he can do that is loltastic. He isn't a superstar and never will be, too think he would ever be is silly.
I dont think Burrows is a superstar, if anything Sedins are but not burrows. Put him in with another team I strongly doubt he will score 35 goals again.

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01-05-2011, 08:46 PM
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macavoy
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Originally Posted by XperHFB View Post
I dont think Burrows is a superstar, if anything Sedins are but not burrows. Put him in with another team I strongly doubt he will score 35 goals again.
I meant to delete him but forgot.

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01-05-2011, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
The fact is he didn't go top 5. I don't think he is a top 5 talent.

I also think 35 goals is superstar material. Lets look at people who have put up 35 goals 3 times or more in their career in the past 10 years.

Crosby
Ovechkin
Marleau
Gaborik
Kovalchuk
Semin
Heatley
Parise
Carter
Nash
Staal
Hossa
Vanek
Malkin
Iginla
Zetterberg
Lecavalier
Alfredson
Gagne
Sakic
Shannahan


I think you get my point, for you to think he can do that is loltastic. He isn't a superstar and never will be, too think he would ever be is silly.
What's silly is to think that a "superstar" player is only evaluated through his goals. How about the points of all those guys you mentioned? How about their overall play? Most of the guys you've named has reached 40 goals and 80 points pretty often in their career. Which is not what I'm mentioning.

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01-05-2011, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
If his current play meets the organizations expectations of him during his draft year, they never would have drafted him in the position that they did.
Are you familiar with the word anachronism? The organization, as you put it, has changed from top to bottom since the 2003 draft. Even Gainey was not in on it, much less Gauthier. I'd say AKost's goal totals are quite acceptable. What do you think he is, another failure on the order of Eric Chouinard? Anyway, he's matured as a player. His defensive awareness is greater and he has more hits than most of his teammates. He makes good passes. The only thing you can legitimately complain about is his streakiness.

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01-05-2011, 09:24 PM
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People are frustrating with Kostitsyn's effort level, at the beginning of the year even if he wasn't producing he was throwing huge hits and backchecking and being an overall positive influence during the games. He seems to be in Kovalev mode a lot more often than not lately, which is infuriating as hell considering what we all know he CAN do.

The fact he was plucked out of the 2003 draft is what rubs so many people the wrong way, with guys like Carter,Parise, Getzlaf, Richards, Perry... We all know the draft is not an exact science and there is luck involved, but it's just like playing the lottery when you've been playing it for so long and still haven't won anything it's pretty normal to be frustrated when somebody else is winning it. The fact that both Philly and Anaheim got two "superstar" players AFTER we drafted Kostitsyn is even more infuriating.

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01-05-2011, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
If his current play meets the organizations expectations of him during his draft year, they never would have drafted him in the position that they did.
Are you familiar with the word anachronism? The organization ("they' as you put it) has changed from top to bottom since the 2003 draft. Even Gainey was not in on it, much less Gauthier. I'd say AKost's goal totals are quite acceptable. What do you think he is, another failure on the order of Eric Chouinard? Anyway, he's matured as a player. His defensive awareness is greater and he has more hits than most of his teammates. He makes good passes. The only thing you can legitimately complain about is his streakiness.

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01-05-2011, 09:47 PM
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Your comparison of previous #10 picks is completely irrelevant. Take a look at the players who went after Andrei in the 03 draft. Absolutely sickening.

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01-05-2011, 09:57 PM
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He has such a big body and a powerful stride. He can be so much better.

Forget whether he is exceeding the organization's expectations (which I dont agree with), I dont even think he is meeting his own expectations. He's the most tantalizing forward on the team. He is the best combination of skill and size on the team... but he just cant seem to put everything together.

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01-05-2011, 10:00 PM
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The only players you can really argue we should've taken at the time would've been Carter or Brown as guys like Richards, Getzlaf and Perry weren't in the picture when we were making our pick and Parise kept dropping to his size which hurt many players before the "new NHL". Even if we managed to take Parise, Brown or Carter they wouldn't of ended up being the players they are now because of the team's poor development of young players.

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01-05-2011, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
We all know the draft is not an exact science and there is luck involved, but it's just like playing the lottery when you've been playing it for so long and still haven't won anything it's pretty normal to be frustrated when somebody else is winning it. The fact that both Philly and Anaheim got two "superstar" players AFTER we drafted Kostitsyn is even more infuriating.
Your chosing to look at the negatives and you deserve the infuriating feeling that you are feeling. It is like the lotto and we have won it. We got Jaro Halak who took us to the ECF in the 7th round, that was like winning Power Ball.

The fact that the market for goalies sucks and we gave him away for a prospect is beside the point, we hit the lotto with him but we were already stacked in that position.


My main point is, all you people arguing about AK could have been this or that, the fact is HE WAS A GAMBLE, he was also a risky acquisition, we took the risk and we got a better draft choice than other people have been in the same position in other years but we didn't make the safe pick.

He wasn't the safe pick. People need to stop thinking he was a lock superstar or something because he never was and he never will be.

He's producing similar goals to our sniper Cammelleri and he's earning half the salary but people still gripe.

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01-05-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
My main point is, all you people arguing about AK could have been this or that, the fact is HE WAS A GAMBLE, he was also a risky acquisition, we took the risk and we got a better draft choice than other people have been in the same position in other years but we didn't make the safe pick.
And your main point is THE problem. And it's not hindsight, way before the draft, it was alredy known as one of the greatest and safest ever. It ended up that way as well. Is it time to go with the gamble? So then, when your gamble fits in the high-risk high-reward type of pick, seeing what we're seeing with the other already known as surefire NHL'ers, you do expect the pick to be high-rewarding....

But then you talk about Cammy? Is Cammy projected to be a 20-goal scorer or is he having just a dissapointed year? Not because we're dissapointed in Cammy that it makes Kosty a better player? If so, then I'll say that Sergei K has just 2 less goals than his pro with 5 less games played....That obviously doesn't make sense based on the fact that Andrei proved some consistent 20ish goal scoring while Sergei hasn't but it was just to debate your Cammy-AKost comparison....

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01-05-2011, 10:33 PM
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I don't know why people still ***** about AK.

In 1998 draft legwand, stuart, allen, etc.. were drafted 2nd to 4th overall.

Andrei Markov was drafted 162nd overall. OH MY GOD, EVERY FRANCHISE FAILED!!!! ****, you draft based on potential and odds of reaching it at the NHL level.

It's if I ask, in a lottery, there's a 90% chance that case A will give you 100,000$ and a 10% chance you'll get 10,000$. There's a 10% chance Lottery B will give you 100,000$, and 90% chance it will give you 10,000$. You choose option A right? Basically, you're bashing the habs for not chosing option B(for arguement sake, we'll say option B resulted in 100k, and option A got 10k). Andrei had top end talent and was seen as a potential star. Guys like Parise were seen as having star potential but were too 'small' for the NHL game...lets not forget he dropped BEFORE the new NHL. It happens, get over it. They drafted a good pick in AK. Not the best pick, but they got a top 6 forward, a forward that has physical tools no one in our top 6 has.

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01-05-2011, 10:36 PM
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The problem with AK isn't his talent level, it never was. The problem is his consistency. He's been inconsistent forever. He's always had the talent...

If he stays here we should just leave him with Pleks and quit moving him around so much. I can see him being traded though, I don't see him being here much longer.

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01-05-2011, 10:40 PM
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The problem with AK isn't his talent level, it never was. The problem is his consistency. He's been inconsistent forever. He's always had the talent...

If he stays here we should just leave him with Pleks and quit moving him around so much. I can see him being traded though, I don't see him being here much longer.
I consider him a goal scorer, I don't consider him a play maker. Tell me, what goal scorer is consistent?

Snipers are known for being inconsistent.

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01-05-2011, 11:01 PM
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I consider him a goal scorer, I don't consider him a play maker. Tell me, what goal scorer is consistent?

Snipers are known for being inconsistent.
I believe you have had enough conversations with LG to realize he's not talking about scoring consistency, but rather, effort.

People want to see A.K use his size and battle hard. He can go 10 games without scoring but still do that and people would be off his back.
Just like when Plekanec had his rough year. He didn't score and was inconsistent, but his effort level was always there. It's the main reason why people didn't criticize him much and he still finished the year with 20Goals despite not being a sniper.

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01-06-2011, 12:09 AM
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All the skills of the world, efforts and dedication is the issue.. There is no secret, if you compare him right now to the way he was playing at the start of the season, there is a world of difference, at the begin of the season he wanted the puck, he was skating, his legs were in movement, was anticipating better too.. now he is less involved in the action, he is coasting too much on the ice and looks satified to not make mistakes.. thats too little to expect from a guy playing on the first line, he has to generate alot more offensively..

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01-06-2011, 12:10 AM
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Useless. Messes up every shift. A giveaway machine and terrible in his own end. And this is just the regular season. Cannot stand this guy.

Doesn't even matter where he was drafted and who we could have had - I can't wait for him to be gone.

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01-06-2011, 12:23 AM
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The 35 goals comment is ridiculous. He would be tied for 10th in the league had he scored 35 goals last year. That is MORE than enough.

He was the 11th pick and in my opinion was the 11th best player in that draft.

He is also being paid 3.25-3.5? Who exactly are the better options at that price. People here wanted Frolov for more money and how is he doing?

If anything, my only problem with that draft is we needed a big center with a right handed shot and Carter and Getzlaf are BOTH THAT!

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01-06-2011, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I don't know why people still ***** about AK.

In 1998 draft legwand, stuart, allen, etc.. were drafted 2nd to 4th overall.

Andrei Markov was drafted 162nd overall. OH MY GOD, EVERY FRANCHISE FAILED!!!! ****, you draft based on potential and odds of reaching it at the NHL level.

It's if I ask, in a lottery, there's a 90% chance that case A will give you 100,000$ and a 10% chance you'll get 10,000$. There's a 10% chance Lottery B will give you 100,000$, and 90% chance it will give you 10,000$. You choose option A right? Basically, you're bashing the habs for not chosing option B(for arguement sake, we'll say option B resulted in 100k, and option A got 10k). Andrei had top end talent and was seen as a potential star. Guys like Parise were seen as having star potential but were too 'small' for the NHL game...lets not forget he dropped BEFORE the new NHL. It happens, get over it. They drafted a good pick in AK. Not the best pick, but they got a top 6 forward, a forward that has physical tools no one in our top 6 has.
Yet, not once or let just say not a whole lot did I see people talking about how Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Robitaille or any of those guys should have been picked by us since, like the Markov, those guys are just out of the blue type of picks. Picks that did ended up being key to teams but that weren't expected to get THAT kind of picks. Most of the 2003 1st round were not about that. Yes, still, most of those 2003 picks had their flaws. Carter had to be much more assertive. Getlzaf had to improve his skating and some were questioning his offensive sense but mostly his work ethic etc....but not at the point of guys like Dats, Markov or any of those guys picked much later who had more than "some" flaws.

Yes, every franchise fails. So again, it comes down to end result. We've been average for 17 years and counting. So I guess it comes down to being tired of waiting. Especially for THE hockey market that we have. Yes, there are not a whole lot of teams that ended up, during that period to have had some kind of real success. Still, there were teams who had and it would have been fun to be one of them. See Anaheim didn't have a whole lot of success lately and yet, they won a cup lately, thanks to a million things but surely because of 2003. Because they were able to get another pick and because they chose 2 of the right picks to get.

As far as Kosty is concered, well we will really see about how top 6 he is at least as far as the org. is concerned. You'd think that Jacques Martin would not have made the "Well of course he's playing great, it's his contract year..." type of comment if they thought so much of him but I guess he was just joking. And the comment about the type of guy he is based on his physical tools, well clearly, it's not an issue based on the fact that this org. does not think it's a criteria based on the choice they made. They build their team not so long ago. And while you often pick what's there, they still chose to spend it all long term so they had to be perfectly fine with what they got....like not having those physical tools I, you and a whole lot of people would love to have. But we will see if that will make them believe he still has a role to play with us. Let's hope they do 'cause it would make 2003 much more painful.....

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