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Kostitsyn is exceding expectations / his peers

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Old
01-06-2011, 12:38 AM
  #26
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by holyhabs87 View Post
The 35 goals comment is ridiculous. He would be tied for 10th in the league had he scored 35 goals last year. That is MORE than enough.

He was the 11th pick and in my opinion was the 11th best player in that draft.

He is also being paid 3.25-3.5? Who exactly are the better options at that price. People here wanted Frolov for more money and how is he doing?

If anything, my only problem with that draft is we needed a big center with a right handed shot and Carter and Getzlaf are BOTH THAT!
How's that ridiculous for the guy who could be top 5 in the entire league for his wrist shot? How's the expectations of 35 goals ridiculous when a guy would have shown consecutive season of 25+ if he had played full seasons and when a guy is looking to renegotiate a contract? How's that out of reach for a guy who still plays most PP's? Plays on the top 2 lines? By the way, the price of 3.25 was made because of 1 season of 26 goals. Can you imagine what would be the price if he would have reached that 30-goal limit? Would we still be fine with him at 4.5 if he would have reached that limit this year based on his inconsistency? What then would be the best options?

And when you say he was picked 11th and was the 11th best player in the draft....do you mean then or now? You still believe he is the 10th, 'cause he was picked 10, best player that came out of that draft?

Again, people lowered their expectations based on his inconsistency and his trend of going MIA offensively for long stretches. Not because he suddenly lost all of his offensive talent. So talent is there and will always will be. Work ethic, consistency and all that stuff might still be a work in progress. So of course, I'm not expecting a 35-goal season soon and certainly not with us and our lovely coach. But I will still believe he has it in him and that maybe elsewhere, we will see that. But it would be more than enough for me that's for sure.

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01-06-2011, 12:45 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Andrei Kostitsyn is having pretty much the career that he should be. I don't know why people to expect him to be a superstar, he wasn't a top draft pick like Kane, Toews, Duchene, Malkin etc... People expecting him to be a superstar are out to lunch. He's a 20 goal scorer. People need to realize that.

He was drafted 10th overall in 2003. Lets compare other people who were drafted 10th overall. I'm going to compare older drafts cuz if I go the newer ones, you'll complain that they are younger and not as developed as AK.

2002 Eric Nystrom LW, 20 career goals
2001 a goalie was drafted 10th, Tuomo Ruutu was drafted 9th and has gotten 20+ goals twice and a bunch of 5-15 goal seasons
2000 Mikhail Yakubov 2 NHL goals
1999 Jamie Lundmark never more than 10 goals in a season
1998 goalie was drafted 10th, Nik Antropov was drafted 9th and has only had 2 20 goal seasons
1997 10th & 9th pick were dmen, Sergei Samsonov was 8th had 4 20 goal seasons and a bunch of 15 goal seasons
1996 Erik Rasmussen never reached 20 goals

So the fact that we got someone who can contribute 20ish goals a year is a good thing.

Also if you compare him to Cammy this year, he's only 2 goals behind him and he earns half the salary. I don't know why people expect the world out of him. He's doing better than what other people drafted in his position have done.
Maybe its because of the players that were passed over for him? Too busy googling for 'the truth' to consider this?

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01-06-2011, 12:49 AM
  #28
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I don't know how any one can really be too happy with him.

He has broken the 50 point mark ONCE in his career.

He is on pace for another 20 goal, mid 40's point season. That nothing to write home about considering he gets plenty of ice time and PP time.

Think about it, 45 points puts him in the worlds of Steve Downie, Jarret Stoll, Mark Recchi at 40 years old, Niclas Hagman, JP Dumont, Jochen Hecht. All decent NHLers but thats it, decent NHLers. Nothing special like how Hab fans see him nor anything special like he was thought be when drafted.

His point totals put him between 120 to 150 in the NHL.

If he put up 25 goals, 35 assists, i think people would be more than content with him.

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01-06-2011, 12:57 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Also if you compare him to Cammy this year, he's only 2 goals behind him and he earns half the salary. I don't know why people expect the world out of him. He's doing better than what other people drafted in his position have done.
Also a lot of people are unhappy with Cammalleri's play this year however still in an off year, he still has more goals and more points. And if you are comparing a UFA's salary to a RFA's salary, you have even less clue.

Cammalleri also has two 80 point seasons to his name, two 50 points seasons ( 1 in only 65 games), and another 47 point season in only 63 games. Until Andrei even comes close to doing this, I would consider this year more of and off year for Cammy, and what we've seen from Andrei is what we are going to get.

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01-06-2011, 01:09 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
How's that ridiculous for the guy who could be top 5 in the entire league for his wrist shot? How's the expectations of 35 goals ridiculous when a guy would have shown consecutive season of 25+ if he had played full seasons and when a guy is looking to renegotiate a contract? How's that out of reach for a guy who still plays most PP's? Plays on the top 2 lines? By the way, the price of 3.25 was made because of 1 season of 26 goals. Can you imagine what would be the price if he would have reached that 30-goal limit? Would we still be fine with him at 4.5 if he would have reached that limit this year based on his inconsistency? What then would be the best options?

And when you say he was picked 11th and was the 11th best player in the draft....do you mean then or now? You still believe he is the 10th, 'cause he was picked 10, best player that came out of that draft?

Again, people lowered their expectations based on his inconsistency and his trend of going MIA offensively for long stretches. Not because he suddenly lost all of his offensive talent. So talent is there and will always will be. Work ethic, consistency and all that stuff might still be a work in progress. So of course, I'm not expecting a 35-goal season soon and certainly not with us and our lovely coach. But I will still believe he has it in him and that maybe elsewhere, we will see that. But it would be more than enough for me that's for sure.
What don't you understand?

You say he could be this and he could be that if this was this and this was that..but nothing is anything you say...Kovalev could have been one of the greatest players ever with all his skill and is not even going to be in the HOF or even considered. This sport is more than just skill and natural ability. That is why a guy like Darche has taken his spot on the PP and a guy like Pyatt who has no offensive abilities whatsoever still has a spot in the NHL.

And please the guy has a sweet wrister but not top 5 in the league..he either hits the goalie in the chest or misses the net more than he picks a corner.

35+ goals is riduclous because he has never once scored 35 goals nor has he come close to it. It is ridiculous because that would have made him top 15 in goals scored the last 3 years which is not likely at all considering he is the 3rd option on his line and has been his entire career. He simply won't get enough touches to score that many with Kovalev and Cammy being the shooters.

And again..please tell me at his price who are the better options? you think you can get a conssitent 30 goals scorer at his salary?

Yes I do believe he is the 11th best player in that 1st round...not the draft.

Do you expect Pouliot to score 35 if he is on the 1st line? He was drafted even higher and has the same abilities aside from the strenght..


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Old
01-06-2011, 02:47 AM
  #31
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I still think AK is a 30 goals scorer if he's use the right way but it won't happen here if Martin use him like a grinder

He have no PP minutes, maybe Darche goes more he front of the net . AK can do a ok job in front of the net but his force on the PP is his wrist shot.

If he make a mistake like a rookie he's bench, when your 3rd best scorer is bench everytime he make a mistake you know that the guy is in the coach doghouse

He was a healthy scratch, I don't know what was the message behind the scratch but AK was mad about it and he even said it in a interview. Not sure it help him or the team

and he's the 3rd man of his line, Plek always pass the puck to Cammy, Ak is there to do the dirty work he do a good job but if you want him to produce he need to have the puck in the zone.


Everyone was saying no Sergei so AK will only think about hockey but you can be sure that they talk to each other and Sergei probably don't have good words for Martin and now he produce in Nashville to back his words. You think AK don't want to get the **** out and have a chance to produce like his little brother. He's probably praying for a trade.

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Old
01-06-2011, 03:07 AM
  #32
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I can stand him producing at that pace what I CAN'T stand is the lazy attitude. It reminds me of kovafloat and makes me cringe every time we draft a russian player.

You are paid to show up every game not when you are in the mood.

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01-06-2011, 03:45 AM
  #33
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I can stand him producing at that pace what I CAN'T stand is the lazy attitude. It reminds me of kovafloat and makes me cringe every time we draft a russian player.

You are paid to show up every game not when you are in the mood.
AK had a hell of a start; he was producing, hitting everything, making good passes, backchecking. Coach put a stop to that routine when he sent him on the 2nd line to play with Gomez who was struggling.

Since then, AK makes a couple of mistakes in a game and he's either benched, sent on the bottom 6 or left behind.

You may call him lazy or inconsistent but I find it amusing that he's being disciplined by the one who screwed up his own line up. On the other hand, Cammalleri quickly returned with Plekanec and no mention of his lack of effort, bad passes, turnovers, no backchecks. Face it: JM doesn't like AK, period.

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01-06-2011, 06:28 AM
  #34
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This isn't complicated. He's a floater, plain and simple. He does not display pride for wearing the CH.

If he played like he gave a crap, I wouldn't care how many goals he scored.

All he has to do, is compete, and he's an asset rather than a liability.

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01-06-2011, 06:39 AM
  #35
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Kostitsyn is best compared to the love/hate relationship we once had with Kovalev. He has the talent, he has the skill and yet half the season. You would think he belonged on the third line. Case in point, his horrid lack of consistency is what is most frustrating. What irks me more than anything however is the ridiculously blind praise he receives by far too many Hab fans. It is irritating when most berate the Leafs for overrating Kadri or Schenn and than I see fans laughing off a first round pick for AK. Frankly, a first from most times would be generous but I digress.

Watch Setoguchi. He is having a disastrous season for him in terms of points but that kid shows up practically every single game. He plays the boards, he muscles through the opposition, he screens the goalie. He has does everything but score points. If Kostitsyn was half what Setoguchi is people would be off his back.

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01-06-2011, 06:42 AM
  #36
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I dont think Burrows is a superstar, if anything Sedins are but not burrows. Put him in with another team I strongly doubt he will score 35 goals again.
Thats called the Rob Brown syndrome

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01-06-2011, 06:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Andrei Kostitsyn is having pretty much the career that he should be. I don't know why people to expect him to be a superstar, he wasn't a top draft pick like Kane, Toews, Duchene, Malkin etc... People expecting him to be a superstar are out to lunch. He's a 20 goal scorer. People need to realize that.

He was drafted 10th overall in 2003. Lets compare other people who were drafted 10th overall. I'm going to compare older drafts cuz if I go the newer ones, you'll complain that they are younger and not as developed as AK.

2002 Eric Nystrom LW, 20 career goals
2001 a goalie was drafted 10th, Tuomo Ruutu was drafted 9th and has gotten 20+ goals twice and a bunch of 5-15 goal seasons
2000 Mikhail Yakubov 2 NHL goals
1999 Jamie Lundmark never more than 10 goals in a season
1998 goalie was drafted 10th, Nik Antropov was drafted 9th and has only had 2 20 goal seasons
1997 10th & 9th pick were dmen, Sergei Samsonov was 8th had 4 20 goal seasons and a bunch of 15 goal seasons
1996 Erik Rasmussen never reached 20 goals

So the fact that we got someone who can contribute 20ish goals a year is a good thing.

Also if you compare him to Cammy this year, he's only 2 goals behind him and he earns half the salary. I don't know why people expect the world out of him. He's doing better than what other people drafted in his position have done.
it's ridiculous to compare him to other 10th overall picks. It's much more relevant to compare him to his draft class, especially those drafted after him.

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Old
01-06-2011, 06:49 AM
  #38
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it's ridiculous to compare him to other 10th overall picks. It's much more relevant to compare him to his draft class, especially those drafted after him.
Exactly. And that can't easily be done in a few minutes grabbing draft results

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01-06-2011, 06:53 AM
  #39
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Yikes... my criticism is of A.Kost is not to do with effort (although I wish he would skate hard and complete his line changes), it's more to do with consistency and the reliablity of his "A-game".

In that sense, he is still like a rookie/young player who hasn't found the way to consistently contribute on any regular basis - despite what appears to be a respectable effort. On any given night he ranges from a top line winger to a minor leaguer.

The frustrating part is that his skill-level is apparent (top line: speed, shot, puck-handling) but the mental part of his game (postioning, decision-making, etc...) is too tempremental for someone with his experience.

Last year I wanted him banished (during the play-offs). At the first of this year I wanted to sign him to a long-term retainer. Now it's slight frustration. And that's sort of the status quo.

I would trade him for a more reliable equivalent (2-3 liner 15to25 goals). He could thrive in a new environment, with a clean slate, and under a completely different set of cirumstances.

All those considered, a trade appears to be a real possiblity (good for the org and the player-most likely).

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01-06-2011, 08:04 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Quarantesix View Post
He have no PP minutes, maybe Darche goes more he front of the net . AK can do a ok job in front of the net but his force on the PP is his wrist shot.

Excuse me? No PP minutes? What are you talking about? He averages almost 2 and half minutes on the PP every game. Thats only 11 seconds less than Gomez. The other forwards getting more are Gionta, Cammy and Plekanec, and considering all four are better players, i dont how you can complain about it. He is taking a regular shift on the PP.

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01-06-2011, 08:05 AM
  #41
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Look I don't care if you only had 60 points, if 35+ were goals that's at the very minimum borderline superstar. How many guys in the NHL can put up 35+? kthx

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01-06-2011, 08:48 AM
  #42
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Excuse me? No PP minutes? What are you talking about? He averages almost 2 and half minutes on the PP every game. Thats only 11 seconds less than Gomez. The other forwards getting more are Gionta, Cammy and Plekanec, and considering all four are better players, i dont how you can complain about it. He is taking a regular shift on the PP.

Really? here are powerplay goals scored by some players on the Habs:

2
5
3
4

Can you guess who scored what?

Pleks 2
Cam 5
Gionta 3
A.K 4.

i haven't been able to get the TOI for PP but I'll bet Andrei's numbers are dramatically less than those other three players.

Andrei's numbers took a dive when Jacques came to town. Maybe it was a coincident maybe it's related. He plays on average 15 minutes a game. A goal scorer needs to play more than that if you want him to score.

Gomez & Cam who are bigger turn-over machines never got their TOI reduced.

I've mentioned it a number of times that I like Jacques as a coach but I see flaws, big flaws, in his thinking.

Sometimes you create the situation that you believe you are seeing. And that is what is happening to Martin.

He saw Sergei as a punk. Sergei behaved as one.Gets traded. Jeeze he isn't a punk anymore.

He saw Lats as a lazy bum (I was guilty of this too). Gets traded. Jeeze he isn't a bum anymore.

Sees D'agostini as not a NHLer. Gets traded. Guess what he is an NHLer after all.

Same with O'Byrne, Chips. Let's see what happens with Lappy. My guess is more of the same.

Andrei K. is a goal scorer and you've gotta treat him like one. And when it comes to the defensive aspect of the game he's not half as bad as most of you are making him out to be. He has the highest +/- on the team. He didn't get that by being a constant turn-over machine like say Gomez or Cammy.

If Andrei leaves we're gonna regret it. He'll go to a team that will know how to use him and won't be crippled by a biased opinion.


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Old
01-06-2011, 08:55 AM
  #43
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3.5 mil. That sounds about right for the 20 games he shows up.

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01-06-2011, 09:09 AM
  #44
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Quit caring where people were drafted,it's a crapshoot and you know it.

What is the evidence in front of you right now?

Clearly,not a fit in the Martin system.

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01-06-2011, 09:27 AM
  #45
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Could have been worse, they could have pulled a Rangers and drafted Hugh Jessiman

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01-06-2011, 11:03 AM
  #46
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AK had a hell of a start; he was producing, hitting everything, making good passes, backchecking. Coach put a stop to that routine when he sent him on the 2nd line to play with Gomez who was struggling.

Since then, AK makes a couple of mistakes in a game and he's either benched, sent on the bottom 6 or left behind.

You may call him lazy or inconsistent but I find it amusing that he's being disciplined by the one who screwed up his own line up. On the other hand, Cammalleri quickly returned with Plekanec and no mention of his lack of effort, bad passes, turnovers, no backchecks. Face it: JM doesn't like AK, period.
Agreed.
He didn't like SK.
He didn't like Lats.
And he doesn't like AK.

I believe his answer to the question ''how do you explain Andrei's early success this year?'' earlier this season was a good proof of that. He answered ''contract year''.

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Old
01-06-2011, 11:25 AM
  #47
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Excuse me? No PP minutes? What are you talking about? He averages almost 2 and half minutes on the PP every game. Thats only 11 seconds less than Gomez. The other forwards getting more are Gionta, Cammy and Plekanec, and considering all four are better players, i dont how you can complain about it. He is taking a regular shift on the PP.
The difference is that Gomez, Gionta, Cammy and Plek will get regular PP ice time. They will not miss one shift, ever.
AK on the other hand, skips turns and doesn't have a solidified spot on the PP.

His average doesn't reflect consistency, it's an average.
Since we started our bad stretch (Dec 10th vs Detroit), AK has seen more than 1:43 on the PP only 3 times out of 12 Games (or should I say 11 because he was a healthy scratch in one of them). On 4 occasions, he was used for under 1 minute there.
This has been his PP usage over that stretch:
1:02
0:05
1:43
4:14
2:19
4:41
1:36
1:31
0
0:47
0:51

So you see, remove his two huge minutes, 4:14 and 4:41, and his numbers don't get inflated that much anymore.

Martin wants consistency out of his player but he, himself, isn't consistent with the way he uses him.
Is on a complete tear on the first line, keeping up with Plek's numbers, and then is replaced by Gionta only to play next to Gomez and Moen. Was also removed from the first PP wave. Was moved from 2nd to 3rd, to 4th, to being the odd man out in practice and uncertain to play until pre-game warm-up, then told he'd play, then scratched, not being used on the PK when the rest of the top 6 guys are, not having a set PP spot, one game it's 4min, two games later it's 0...
And then Martin says he wants him to be more consistent?? Doesn't seem quite fair to me..

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01-06-2011, 11:28 AM
  #48
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Add me to the group of "What's with the Kostitsyn hate?" I think part of it has to do with expectations, but if we take a look, I think he is meeting expectations just fine.

People complain about his production, but he is 3rd on the team in points and 4th on the team in goals.

People complain that he isn't involved enough physically, but he actually leads the team in hits (with Lapierre gone).

On the powerplay, he takes abuse in front of the net to screen the goalie.

Poor defensively? Well his +/- is the best on the team!

Then that last argument, that he doesn't care, or isn't consistent. Guess what, there are other players on our team that can't play their A game every single night, including all our favourites (Gomez, Cammalleri, Gionta, Pouliot, Eller, Price, Hamrlik, Spacek, Subban, etc...) Are we questioning their heart or dedication? Jarome Iginla had an awful start to the season, then went on a crazy streak, then cooled off... it happens.

Ugh... too many days in between games...

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Old
01-06-2011, 11:29 AM
  #49
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The only players you can really argue we should've taken at the time would've been Carter or Brown as guys like Richards, Getzlaf and Perry weren't in the picture when we were making our pick and Parise kept dropping to his size which hurt many players before the "new NHL". Even if we managed to take Parise, Brown or Carter they wouldn't of ended up being the players they are now because of the team's poor development of young players.
How do you come up with that?

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01-06-2011, 11:30 AM
  #50
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Agreed.
He didn't like SK.
He didn't like Lats.
And he doesn't like AK.

I believe his answer to the question ''how do you explain Andrei's early success this year?'' earlier this season was a good proof of that. He answered ''contract year''.
Speaking of SK, he played injured and struggled earlier this season, but has 17 pts in his last 16 games.

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