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Question: If Gainey resigned 3 years earlier and left Gauthier in charge....

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01-05-2011, 11:11 AM
  #1
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Question: If Gainey resigned 3 years earlier and left Gauthier in charge....

where do you think the Habs would be right now?

Better position? Worse position? About the same?

I ask this because Gauthier seems to be much more aggressive than Gainey and has made some pretty good trades so far. I think he's probably a better talent evaluator than Gainey as well.

What do you think?

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01-05-2011, 11:14 AM
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I think you're right about him being more aggressive and I like that. Taking risks is what makes you a great team. It can also make you a bad team too. Gainey was a great GM in my opinion and is likely advising Gauthier on a lot of things, but I think maybe it could be Gauthier is also just better at making things happen than Gainey. With Gainey's support I don't doubt Gauthier could make it far as a GM in this league. Without it I'm not so confident he'd be doing this well. Same can be said for Gainey though so who knows.

I've liked both of them as GM's but so far I prefer Gauthier. I don't want to become Calgary mind you but I like what Gauthier has done so far.

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01-05-2011, 11:16 AM
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Don't know...

I don't see Gauthier as being much different than Gainey... but I doubt he would have made the panic moves Gainey did 2 years ago.

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01-05-2011, 11:23 AM
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To quote late Pat Burns on CKAC : "Si ma tante Louise avait des c.... ce serait mon oncle Louis"

It's difficult to say - the organisational game plan is different now than what it was three years ago (when we won the east btw - and we were preparing the centennial season). The ownership changed too - maybe there's more pressure now ?

Gainey showed he was capable of doing trades too, and he also signed almost a full team. Maybe the conditions were different.

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01-05-2011, 11:24 AM
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Gauthier was Gainey's assistant/advisor, Gainey is Gauthier's advisor. Who knows how much say each has had or currently has.

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01-05-2011, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I think you're right about him being more aggressive and I like that. Taking risks is what makes you a great team. It can also make you a bad team too. Gainey was a great GM in my opinion and is likely advising Gauthier on a lot of things, but I think maybe it could be Gauthier is also just better at making things happen than Gainey. With Gainey's support I don't doubt Gauthier could make it far as a GM in this league. Without it I'm not so confident he'd be doing this well. Same can be said for Gainey though so who knows.

I've liked both of them as GM's but so far I prefer Gauthier. I don't want to become Calgary mind you but I like what Gauthier has done so far.
I don't know about Gainey though. I like what he's done in terms of rebuilding the farm and adding depth to the prospect pool. As far as NHL moves, I think he's been fairly poor for many reasons...that maybe I'll get into later. I think one main gripe with Gainey is his tentativeness. I mean, he's tried to make big deals, but none have ever happened. So what's his defining trade? Kovalev? Gomez? Pacioretty/Gorges?

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01-05-2011, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
I don't know about Gainey though. I like what he's done in terms of rebuilding the farm and adding depth to the prospect pool. As far as NHL moves, I think he's been fairly poor for many reasons...that maybe I'll get into later. I think one main gripe with Gainey is his tentativeness. I mean, he's tried to make big deals, but none have ever happened. So what's his defining trade? Kovalev? Gomez? Pacioretty/Gorges?
The Kovalev deal was a huge one when it happened and I think that really defined the Habs for a few seasons after, the rest of the team's core was inherited essentially and vaulted them into more of a team that could actually make the playoffs.

Gainey's eventual stamp on the club in terms of personnel was the new core of Gomez, Gionta and Cammalleri; it obviously was a bold move to make in jettisoning the top forwards of his club all at once. However, we don't know how much input Gauthier had in that, too, since he took over fairly quickly after that.

It's true that Gainey spent a good portion of his time as GM chasing players like Shanahan, Briere, Smyth, Elias, Hossa, Lecavalier, etc, and he quite frequently had to turn to Plan B or C instead.

I think the two are actually quite similar. As for Gauthier, yes, his moves so far have been good but they're hardly earth shattering. I'd suggest Gauthier is less about chasing big fish and more about getting a player or two here and there, which is what Gainey usually ended up doing.

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01-05-2011, 11:49 AM
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Without Gainey being patient and keeping his picks(for the most part) Gauthier wouldn't have assets to be 'aggressive' with.

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01-05-2011, 11:52 AM
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Gainey was an excellent pre-cap GM, had no idea how to manage his assets the last few years. I still shake my head at not trading Souray or Streit, but letting them walk for nothing.

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01-05-2011, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Without Gainey being patient and keeping his picks(for the most part) Gauthier wouldn't have assets to be 'aggressive' with.
You can also say, if he wasn't so patient, Gauthier wouldn't have to be looking to make trades because there wouldn't be a need to do so.

He also could have gotten picks and young talent for Streit & Souray...or Koivu or Bouillon, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
The Kovalev deal was a huge one when it happened and I think that really defined the Habs for a few seasons after, the rest of the team's core was inherited essentially and vaulted them into more of a team that could actually make the playoffs.

Gainey's eventual stamp on the club in terms of personnel was the new core of Gomez, Gionta and Cammalleri; it obviously was a bold move to make in jettisoning the top forwards of his club all at once. However, we don't know how much input Gauthier had in that, too, since he took over fairly quickly after that.

It's true that Gainey spent a good portion of his time as GM chasing players like Shanahan, Briere, Smyth, Elias, Hossa, Lecavalier, etc, and he quite frequently had to turn to Plan B or C instead.

I think the two are actually quite similar. As for Gauthier, yes, his moves so far have been good but they're hardly earth shattering. I'd suggest Gauthier is less about chasing big fish and more about getting a player or two here and there, which is what Gainey usually ended up doing.
My thing with Gainey is he didn't seem to have a Plan B or C. He never seemed to, IMO.

Also, if you look at the moves Gauthier has made...I think the team would look far different if he was the one who rebuilt the team 2 summers ago. Would it be better? Who knows....but I think it would look different.


Last edited by montreal: 01-05-2011 at 03:27 PM.
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01-05-2011, 12:00 PM
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Gainey did very well...

The Habs need work, but are not a disaster.

10 points is all that separates team 3 from team 21 in the standings

http://www.nhl.com/ice/standings.htm...nav-stn-league

That is only 5 victories!


Do you think the Habs would have 5 more victories to date with our best player (Markov) in the lineup?

I do

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
You can also say, if he wasn't so patient, Gauthier wouldn't have to be looking to make trades because there wouldn't be a need to do so.

He also could have gotten picks and young talent for Streit & Souray...or Koivu or Bouillon, etc...
So yeah... go into the POs without key players after fighting to make it all season


Last edited by montreal: 01-05-2011 at 03:29 PM.
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01-05-2011, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
You can also say, if he wasn't so patient, Gauthier wouldn't have to be looking to make trades because there wouldn't be a need to do so.

He also could have gotten picks and young talent for Streit & Souray...or Koivu or Bouillon, etc...
Fair enough. I agree with this, but who's to say Gauthier would've traded Souray or Koivu anyway? Especially, Kovalev, tanguay, lang, koivu left after 100th year. I doubt you trade your top players on such a year of promise.

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01-05-2011, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I still shake my head at not trading Souray or Streit, but letting them walk for nothing.
Show me a good GM who trades impending UFA's when they were in the playoffs at the trade deadline and went on to win the cup.

Good GM's don't trade impending UFA's when they are in the hunt. Seriously, give me examples of good GM's who have done it.

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01-05-2011, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Show me a good GM who trades impending UFA's when they were in the playoffs at the trade deadline and went on to win the cup.

Good GM's don't trade impending UFA's when they are in the hunt. Seriously, give me examples of good GM's who have done it.
This is absolutely correct, but in all fairness, I don't recall where we were placed at the deadline, but we finished the year, what, 10th? Isles 8th, TO 9th, us 10th right? We were in the hunt, but I guess some feel in Souray's case, that we sold the assets and moved in the opposite direction for asset management purposes.

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01-05-2011, 12:14 PM
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thread deserves golden JayBee quote

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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post

The org. really needs a change in philosophy and that probably means getting rid of Boivin, Gauthier, Martin, Timmins... A complete house cleaning.
Original Thread

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01-05-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Show me a good GM who trades impending UFA's when they were in the playoffs at the trade deadline and went on to win the cup.

Good GM's don't trade impending UFA's when they are in the hunt. Seriously, give me examples of good GM's who have done it.

Wait what? Why does it have to do with winning the cup? It has to do with improving your club, fine-tuning it for the post season and next year. Not every move is with cup aspirations, that is just not realistic.

Look at how many pending UFA's get moved before the trade deadline, it is a big market. Bob never had any intention of signing Sheldon our Mark, he should have gotten something in return.

Weren't Forsberg, Hossa, Guerin and a host of other players all moved at the deadline? I could be wrong about a couple of the plaeyes, but remember how little Pitts got for Hossa? BTW, we were never in 'the hunt' when Souray and Streit for UFA's , so lets not get carried away.

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01-05-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
...

BTW, we were never in 'the hunt' when Souray and Streit for UFA's , so lets not get carried away.

2007-2008 season (Streit UFA) - we ended the season first in the East with 104 points. The PP was a major part of our success.

So no, we were not in the hunt

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01-05-2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Weren't Forsberg, Hossa, Guerin and a host of other players all moved at the deadline? I could be wrong about a couple of the plaeyes, but remember how little Pitts got for Hossa? BTW, we were never in 'the hunt' when Souray and Streit for UFA's , so lets not get carried away.
Pittsburg traded for Hossa, so they paid for him. Your losing credibility when you don't know facts.

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01-05-2011, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Born in 1909 View Post
So yeah... go into the POs without key players after fighting to make it all season
Why do people say this? We were not going to make noise either of those years. We traded Rivet....why not others?

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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Show me a good GM who trades impending UFA's when they were in the playoffs at the trade deadline and went on to win the cup.

Good GM's don't trade impending UFA's when they are in the hunt. Seriously, give me examples of good GM's who have done it.
No, good GM's usually trade players they don't think they can sign far before the trade deadline. Gainey's stupid rule about not having contract talks during the year has cost him time and time again.

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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Fair enough. I agree with this, but who's to say Gauthier would've traded Souray or Koivu anyway? Especially, Kovalev, tanguay, lang, koivu left after 100th year. I doubt you trade your top players on such a year of promise.
I know...he might not have.

I believe Markov and Souray were UFA's the same summer. Gainey knew he'd only sign one of them and Souray didn't want to stay. Why not trade him earlier in the season or the summer before?


Last edited by montreal: 01-05-2011 at 03:29 PM.
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01-05-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
where do you think the Habs would be right now?

Better position? Worse position? About the same?

I ask this because Gauthier seems to be much more aggressive than Gainey and has made some pretty good trades so far. I think he's probably a better talent evaluator than Gainey as well.

What do you think?
A few areas I think he is better than Gainey was...
-spending less on depth players(Halpern Darche Picard Auld etc)
-making deals with long term in mind(Bournival Eller etc)
-more patient with young players instead of rushing them

Gainey came in after the circus that was the late 90's though and made a lot of good changes and helped change the culture.

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01-05-2011, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JayBee View Post
No, good GM's usually trade players they don't think they can sign far before the trade deadline. Gainey's stupid rule about not having contract talks during the year has cost him time and time again.
Give me an example then of a good GM that was in position to make the playoffs and traded a impending UFA at the deadline then.

If that is what good GM's do, why can't you give any examples of good GM's who have done it?

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01-05-2011, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
This is absolutely correct, but in all fairness, I don't recall where we were placed at the deadline, but we finished the year, what, 10th? Isles 8th, TO 9th, us 10th right? We were in the hunt, but I guess some feel in Souray's case, that we sold the assets and moved in the opposite direction for asset management purposes.
The only reason we missed the playoffs was Huet's injury and Aebischer crapping the bed. We had to decide between a rookie Halak or a recovering injured guy in Huet.

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01-05-2011, 02:23 PM
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Why do people say this? We were not going to make noise either of those years. We traded Rivet....why not others?
Fact - in 2007-2008 we were just the top of the east with the best PP in the league. Makes total sense to trade your PP scorer (Streit) for picks just before the playoffs.

Heh - if the Habs are in 8th spot next trade deadline and Gauthier decides to trade even Hammrlik or Gill for picks the same posters here will ask for his head for "shameful folding" and "tanking".

The ability some people have to completely ignore factual data that goes against their theory is nothing short of surprising.

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01-05-2011, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Give me an example then of a good GM that was in position to make the playoffs and traded a impending UFA at the deadline then.

If that is what good GM's do, why can't you give any examples of good GM's who have done it?
I agree, people complaining about not trading Souray or Strit don't live in the real world. Had they traded Souray for picks/prospects there would have been riots in the streets. It's not like those teams were 12th place 10 points out at the dedaline. Plus we lost those guys to UFA and signed other UFA's...I'm sure we won the Souray-Hamrlik swap pretty handily. Streit was a case of Carbonneau not trusting/playing him on defense so Gainey wasn't spending 3+ mil for a 4th line PP specialist.

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01-05-2011, 02:32 PM
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Gainey pulled off Kovalev deal...that deal brought us most talented player in a trade since Mark Recchi. that imo is aggressive

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