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NJ trades Langenbrunner to DAL

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Old
01-08-2011, 06:51 PM
  #101
Cin
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At practice today they had Lags on the point for some stuff, thinking he'll be on the point for the 2nd unit and Richards won't be out for the whole 2 minutes now. Maybe not, who knows.

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01-08-2011, 06:57 PM
  #102
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ES
Neal - Richards - Eriksson
Morrow - Ribeiro - Benn/Langenbrunner
Ott - Burish - Benn/Langenbrunner/Neal
Sutherby - Wandell - Segal
Petersen/Barch

PP1
Eriksson - Ribeiro - Morrow
Richards - Robidas

PP2
Neal - Ott - Benn
Langenbrunner - Daley

PK1
Burish - Langenbrunner

PK2
Benn - Ott

PK3
Wandell - Eriksson

PK4
Morrow - Ribeiro

e: Something like this?
e2: fixt


Last edited by Frozen Failure: 01-08-2011 at 09:53 PM.
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01-08-2011, 08:51 PM
  #103
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PK2 would be Benn-Ott. They've been a much better PK unit than Eriksson-Wandell and used as the top PK unit at times.

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01-08-2011, 09:17 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
PK2 would be Benn-Ott. They've been a much better PK unit than Eriksson-Wandell and used as the top PK unit at times.
That's not true at all. Both pairings have been equally effective at preventing goals. Granted, Benn is the team's best threat to score shorthanded.

4v5 GA/60

5.43 - Eriksson
5.31 - Ott
4.75 - Benn
3.70 - Wandell

These are all good numbers.

Interesting that the 2 sophomores are probably 2 of our best defensive forwards.

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01-08-2011, 09:21 PM
  #105
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is there a way for those 4 v 5 stats to reflect the quality of line they're playing against?

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01-08-2011, 09:48 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
That's not true at all. Both pairings have been equally effective at preventing goals. Granted, Benn is the team's best threat to score shorthanded.

4v5 GA/60

5.43 - Eriksson
5.31 - Ott
4.75 - Benn
3.70 - Wandell

These are all good numbers.

Interesting that the 2 sophomores are probably 2 of our best defensive forwards.
Ott is probably the team's second-best shorthanded threat (going from memory here). And I would bet a fair amount of money that Wandell has significantly fewer minutes on the PK without facing many of the top units of other teams.

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01-08-2011, 09:58 PM
  #107
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And I would bet a fair amount of money that Wandell has significantly fewer minutes on the PK without facing many of the top units of other teams.
Yes and no.

Shorthanded QUALCOMP is somewhat less useful than it is for 5v5 since penalty killers are generally facing the other team's top players no matter what and the fluctuations are more exaggerated, but:

4v5 QUALCOMP

+.688 - Wandell
+.273 - Benn
+.121 - Ott
-.175 - Eriksson

So Wandell is facing the toughest matchups and is doing the best -- he pretty clearly deserves more responsibility.

4v5 TOI/G

2:01 - Ott
1:38 - Benn
1:35 - Eriksson
1:15 - Wandell

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01-08-2011, 11:29 PM
  #108
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The biggest surprise to me about that is Eriksson, honestly. I'd have expected with his defensive ability he'd be up against stronger competition.

And in looking at some stats, Ott and Benn have the same short-handed point totals - 2 goals and 1 assist each. IIRC, Razor said Dallas had five shorties total, so they've accounted for 80 percent of that offense.

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01-09-2011, 12:21 AM
  #109
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And last year Eriksson had more SHP than Ott. As he did the year before that. SSS.

edit: I'd really like to see what Langs' PK stats were with NJ, but behindthenet's new site is completely ****ed and nearly unusable now.


Last edited by piqued: 01-09-2011 at 12:30 AM.
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01-09-2011, 05:02 PM
  #110
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Are you kidding me? He was awesome with the Ribeiro line to begin the season, and was rocking with Ott later on the third line. I don't know why many of you have Burish pigeonholed. He has been well worth his contract and deserves more minutes than Wandell, who has done NOTHING this season.
Sounds like you may have Wandell pigeonholed?

It's not an insult to say Burish is a 4th liner on a good team, he is. Wandell has considerably more skill and plays "up" to his linemates to a much higher degree than Burish, not to mention Wandell's superior defensive play 5-on-5.

I'm a Burish fan but this "deserving" stuff I don't agree with, for either player. The team would be stronger with a line using some combination of Benn-Wandell-Ott. Burish in smaller doses may actually increase his effectiveness while boosting the 4th line's effectiveness, a role where Wandell seems somewhat less productive.

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01-09-2011, 09:00 PM
  #111
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And Burish was on the third line. Wandell 4th.

EDIT: I honestly don't care either way, so let's just be happy Stars fans

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01-09-2011, 09:18 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
Sounds like you may have Wandell pigeonholed?

It's not an insult to say Burish is a 4th liner on a good team, he is. Wandell has considerably more skill and plays "up" to his linemates to a much higher degree than Burish, not to mention Wandell's superior defensive play 5-on-5.

I'm a Burish fan but this "deserving" stuff I don't agree with, for either player. The team would be stronger with a line using some combination of Benn-Wandell-Ott. Burish in smaller doses may actually increase his effectiveness while boosting the 4th line's effectiveness, a role where Wandell seems somewhat less productive.
Eh, Wandell always looks like he's doing something but, other than drawing power plays, he actually accomplishes very little offensively. He turns the puck over a lot in the offensive zone as well because he doesn't click well with his linemates in terms of creating chances. He's a lot like (gulp) Brunnstrom in that regard, though he's far superior to Brunnstrom in his defensive effort.

Wandell has a lot of flash because of his speed, but he doesn't even pick up points by accident. He's got 3-1-4 this season with only two points since October. Burish has been only slightly better production-wise (1-4-5, though he spreads his points out more evenly). Also, I disagree with "superior" defensive play 5-v-5. According to piqued's favorite stats site, Burish is one of the prime guys they put out there against the other team's top players while Wandell routinely faces the weaker players.

Burish and Wandell are different styles that lead to the same outcomes, and Burish plays more the style both Nieuwendyk and Crawford have pushed for all season ("hard to play against"). The Ott-Burish-Langenbrunner line was quite effective tonight once they figured out who was playing center, and I expect that to be the line going forward if Benn continues to click well with Ribeiro.

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01-09-2011, 09:29 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
He turns the puck over a lot in the offensive zone as well because he doesn't click well with his linemates in terms of creating chances.
Nobody clicks with the players he's been forced to play with. That's why I want him to play with different players who he will click with. Wouldn't you like to see Ott put up more points? What I'm suggesting is how that happens.
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
According to piqued's favorite stats site, Burish is one of the prime guys they put out there against the other team's top players while Wandell routinely faces the weaker players.
And Wandell has the best 5v5 GA/60 on the team...

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01-09-2011, 09:44 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
Nobody clicks with the players he's been forced to play with. That's why I want him to play with different players who he will click with. Wouldn't you like to see Ott put up more points? What I'm suggesting is how that happens.

And Wandell has the best 5v5 GA/60 on the team...
Wandell has no history of putting up points in the NHL. He had the same problem last year - all speed and no offense from it. I'm suggesting no matter who he plays with, his offense contributions are going to be minimal. If the coaches have found this to be true (and they see him in practice with any number of linemates), there's no reason for them to experiment with it in the games.

And if I'm reading this site correctly, Wandell plays worse quality of opponent than Niskanen, and we all know how much they're hiding him. The only forwards he beats out on the Stars are Petersen, Barch and Segal. He should have the best 5v5 GA/60 given that.

To be clear, I don't dislike him as a player. But he is who he is - a 3/4th line tweener who will play up in a more skill look but be pushed down the lineup if they're going "hard to play against." That's what he's earned with his performance, no matter how flashy it looks.

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01-09-2011, 09:50 PM
  #115
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Wandell has no history of putting up points in the NHL. He had the same problem last year - all speed and no offense from it.
Because he has no history of playing with people who don't suck. It's like night and day when he gets to play with people with the slightest bit of hockey sense. It's so obvious to me I can't comprehend how others don't see it.
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I'm suggesting no matter who he plays with, his offense contributions are going to be minimal.
I suggest you're completely wrong.
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
And if I'm reading this site correctly, Wandell plays worse quality of opponent than Niskanen, and we all know how much they're hiding him. The only forwards he beats out on the Stars are Petersen, Barch and Segal. He should have the best 5v5 GA/60 given that.
Oh, OK, so it's expected just as a matter of course. Get back to me with Petersen, Barch, and Segal's GA/60 rates.

Hint: 3 of those players are confirming that they're 4th liners (or worse) - 1 of them is confirming that he's ready for a promotion.

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01-09-2011, 10:02 PM
  #116
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You made the same "never enough time with good linemates to prove himself" argument with Brunnstrom. It wasn't true then, and it's not true now.

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01-09-2011, 11:45 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Eh, Wandell always looks like he's doing something but, other than drawing power plays, he actually accomplishes very little offensively. He turns the puck over a lot in the offensive zone as well because he doesn't click well with his linemates in terms of creating chances. He's a lot like (gulp) Brunnstrom in that regard, though he's far superior to Brunnstrom in his defensive effort.
Depends on your definition of "accomplishing" something offensively. Given the talent he's been surrounded with in terms of linemates I consider his ability to hold onto the puck and actually get a bit of a cycle going to be an accomplishment. He's not so good offensively that he can really "lift" those up around him but he does have the skill to play off of and with other talented players.

I don't see the Brunnstrom comparison really at all. Wandell's puck control is on par with the best we've seen from Ribeiro during his time here and similar to but different from Zubov when he wafted through neutral ice and into the offensive zone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Wandell has a lot of flash because of his speed, but he doesn't even pick up points by accident. He's got 3-1-4 this season with only two points since October. Burish has been only slightly better production-wise (1-4-5, though he spreads his points out more evenly). Also, I disagree with "superior" defensive play 5-v-5. According to piqued's favorite stats site, Burish is one of the prime guys they put out there against the other team's top players while Wandell routinely faces the weaker players.
Again, I'm not concerned with his point totals, or lack thereof; kid has skills that aren't being correctly utilized.

I'm not a big stats guy. I'll go with the old "what my eyes tell me" and what they tell me is that Wandell is not only "superior defensively 5-on-5" but far superior IMO. Also, you're penalizing Wandell for playing against weaker players when he is clearly playing with linemates not suited to checking the other team's best players.

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Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
Burish and Wandell are different styles that lead to the same outcomes, and Burish plays more the style both Nieuwendyk and Crawford have pushed for all season ("hard to play against"). The Ott-Burish-Langenbrunner line was quite effective tonight once they figured out who was playing center, and I expect that to be the line going forward if Benn continues to click well with Ribeiro.
I disagree with most of that, sans your assessement of the "3rd" line tonight. Burish has a clear ceiling; he is what he is. What he is is a useful player, don't get me wrong. But given equal time playing with equal linemates over a long period of time I can say that there is no doubt in my mind that Wandell outproduces Burish and is equally or more effective in a checking role.

The hard to play against meme is beyond ridiculous. I said it over the summer and I maintain, there are a number of ways to be hard to play against. It's pretty hard to play against a guy who has the puck on his stick 2/3 of his shift. The reason he has all those turnovers you referred to is that he literally has nobody to pass to or who think the game at the same speed/level. You can see him waiting for the point men to open up for the pass rather than pass to a linemate 80% of the time.

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Originally Posted by piqued1457 View Post
Because he has no history of playing with people who don't suck. It's like night and day when he gets to play with people with the slightest bit of hockey sense. It's so obvious to me I can't comprehend how others don't see it.
I agree with what you're preaching. You either see it or you don't think there's anything to see. No amount of number crunching is going to prove it one way or the other.

Anyways, this is the Langs thread. I'm thrilled. Game 1 looked good and I'm looking forward to seeing more of what he will bring to this team.


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01-10-2011, 12:21 PM
  #118
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This is actually the whole blog, by Stan Fischler, from which the excerpt (courtesy of BenedictGomez) was taken. Hard to believe such biased drivel could come out of someone who's been in broadcasting for so long. So some stuff happened between Langs and Lemaire. How about a little insight that the fans might be unaware of what actually happened? Considering the manner he singles out Langenbrunner for some maximum verbal carnage- sounding more like a disgruntled fan than "The Hockey Maven" he claims to be- I really question the validity of whatever he accuses the ex-captain of.
I dont.

For starters, there's absolutely nothing for Stan to gain from lying, which is what you'd have to believe if you dont believe Fischler, who has been around 1,000,000 years, so I believe it 100%. It also jives with the odd comments and drama re: Langs/Lemaire last season that was cryptic to us fans.

My criticism of Fischler is that he only says this once Langenbrunner is gone, which is IMO, cowardly for a reporter. And FYI, the stuff Tremblay had to say about Langenbrunner the other day, IMO, is far more concerning than what Fischler said, again, assuming that what Tremblay said is true as well. Again, if you believe any of this Langenbrunner stuff, he had to go. As for Lou, we now know that Lou did try to get rid of Langs earlier, but Jamie invoked his NTC.

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01-10-2011, 12:52 PM
  #119
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I dont.

For starters, there's absolutely nothing for Stan to gain from lying, which is what you'd have to believe if you dont believe Fischler, who has been around 1,000,000 years, so I believe it 100%. It also jives with the odd comments and drama re: Langs/Lemaire last season that was cryptic to us fans.
Sorry, but I disagree. Someone doesn't have to "gain" anything by being biased. It's not like Lamoreillo is sending him a box of cookies for ranting on Langenbrunner. The man is obviously a fan and is extremely disgruntled

Secondly, it shows poorly on someone who has been for 1,000,000 years and writes like a disgruntled fan and yes, just because someone has been around that long doesn't mean they are incapable of brain-farts and poorly-written pieces or are exempt from criticism. The very nature of his post reeks of bias and it completely exonerates the management from any wrong. Letting go of d-men, 5 head-coaches in 6 years, a ridiculous firing of Julien at that juncture, the Kovalchuk fiasco, throwing crazy money at Rolston and Arnott (who should've never been brought back), etc. etc.- had nothing to do with the way the NJ franchise finds itself in currently?

Quote:
My criticism of Fischler is that he only says this once Langenbrunner is gone, which is IMO, cowardly for a reporter.
Most players/management/coaches will act as if every thing is hunky-dory, even when it's not, until the proverbial "fecal matter hits the fan." Maybe Fischler is more than just "The Hockey Maven" you know and is probably emotionally invested to the Devils' cause, thereby having "something to gain" by getting the fans on the NJ Devils' side by launching salvos at the guy who left.

And no, I don't think it was cowardly. Biased? Absolutely!

Quote:
And FYI, the stuff Tremblay had to say about Langenbrunner the other day, IMO, is far more concerning than what Fischler said, again, assuming that what Tremblay said is true as well.
I didn't hear Tremblay, so I cannot comment. But, for whom is it "far more concerning," I wonder? Langs has left NJ, so why would you bother? Should we be bothered as Stars fans? If so, provide ample information regarding what was said by Tremblay rather than appealing to fear.

Quote:
Again, if you believe any of this Langenbrunner stuff, he had to go. As for Lou, we now know that Lou did try to get rid of Langs earlier, but Jamie invoked his NTC.
Obviously he had problems with Lemaire and Lou, but I don't believe every piece of vitriol spewed in the presses about him. Players have issues with coaches and management, and vice-versa. Brett Hull did, Pronger did, Spezza did, and so did many others. The end result always is that people move on- as will you, Fischler, Tremblay, and the Garden State, vis-a-vis Langenbrunner. Your team has bigger issues than a past-his-prime, two-way forward wanting out.


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01-10-2011, 01:17 PM
  #120
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Glove - I'm using my eyes on Wandell too, and they're what's telling me he has speed to spare but little hockey sense. I was mostly using the stats because piqued loves them so.

You and piqued seem to be arguing he's not as good a player as he could be because of his linemates. Case and I are arguing he's not playing with better linemates because he's not just that good of a player yet. It's a chicken/egg argument, and only the coaching staff (which plays him with a variety of partners in practice) knows for sure. The fact that they're not trying to push him up the lineup tells me they don't think he's more talented than the players in front of him. With Benn and Neal and Ott at times, they've shown willingness to continue giving big minutes even when they're struggling. They haven't done that with Wandell, though, which tells me they think he's a little self-limited at this point.

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01-10-2011, 03:16 PM
  #121
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You made the same "never enough time with good linemates to prove himself" argument with Brunnstrom. It wasn't true then, and it's not true now.
It was true then and it is true now.
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The fact that they're not trying to push him up the lineup tells me they don't think he's more talented than the players in front of him.
The only person I'm advocating he be pushed up the lineup in favor of is Burish. And if they think Burish is more talented than Wandell...

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01-10-2011, 04:03 PM
  #122
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I'm baffled as to how anyone can watch Wandell play and come to the conclusion that he's no more than a Conner or a Brunnstrom. It makes me wonder if they truly comprehend what they are watching when they take in a hockey game. Wandell will always have a spot in the NHL as a checking line forward. His defensive sense for a player his age is so advanced it's not even funny. He could get pigeonholed (seems to be the word of the day) as a 3rd or 4th liner for his entire career and still have a very long and successful tenure as an NHL player. That's something neither Brunnstrom nor Conner have going for them.

As for his offensive abilities, his poise with the puck and his skating ability are two traits that are rarely seen in a player. His shot and his playmaking don't blow me away but I would've said the same thing about Loui Eriksson at that stage of his career. Like Eriksson, he needs minutes, the organization needs to commit to him and show him that they have confidence in him. Now is not necessarily the time, but at some point, probably next year, we need to give him top 6 minutes and some PP time so we can truly get a read on what he brings to the table offensively.

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01-10-2011, 04:23 PM
  #123
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I never compared Wandell's overall game to Brunnstrom or Conner. I've said his offensive game shows traits of them both - his insistence on being a solo operator in the forward zone and turnovers on the boards ala Brunnstrom and his speed making him a huge weapon if only to draw penalties but being unable to turn it into points ala Conner. His defensive game is superior to both. He's a fine 3rd/4th liner at this point, though not the physical presence they want on their third line at the moment.

Comparisons to Eriksson are absurd. Eriksson was a constant drip of points even as a rookie, and his biggest issue was raw strength and over-pass-itis.

And why does the coaching staff need to prove to us that he does or does not work on the top two lines or the PP (and who's spot on either does he take?)? If they know what they have, then they know it, and they're under no obligation to put him in situations where they're 99 percent sure he'd fail just to satisfy our curiosity.

piqued - Brunnstrom sure is lighting up the AHL, I see. He's showing sure signs he deserves to be on the Dallas Stars top two lines with his performance.

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01-10-2011, 05:10 PM
  #124
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He's a fine 3rd/4th liner at this point, though not the physical presence they want on their third line at the moment.
That doesn't make any sense to me. Ott is one of the biggest physical presences in the entire NHL. Benn is a bigger physical presence than Burish in both frequency and intensity of hits. If both of those guys are on your 3rd line, you don't need another banger. You can afford to have someone with some skill who can help turn the line into a threat both ways.

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01-10-2011, 05:17 PM
  #125
TangoMcBride
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kritter471 View Post
I never compared Wandell's overall game to Brunnstrom or Conner. I've said his offensive game shows traits of them both - his insistence on being a solo operator in the forward zone and turnovers on the boards ala Brunnstrom and his speed making him a huge weapon if only to draw penalties but being unable to turn it into points ala Conner. His defensive game is superior to both. He's a fine 3rd/4th liner at this point, though not the physical presence they want on their third line at the moment.

Comparisons to Eriksson are absurd. Eriksson was a constant drip of points even as a rookie, and his biggest issue was raw strength and over-pass-itis.

And why does the coaching staff need to prove to us that he does or does not work on the top two lines or the PP (and who's spot on either does he take?)? If they know what they have, then they know it, and they're under no obligation to put him in situations where they're 99 percent sure he'd fail just to satisfy our curiosity.

piqued - Brunnstrom sure is lighting up the AHL, I see. He's showing sure signs he deserves to be on the Dallas Stars top two lines with his performance.
Okay, well I just don't see his turnovers as being any more common or egregious than any other young player. In fact, I think is ability to keep possession of the puck is one of his best assets as a player. I think the odd give away and his point production issues stems from him not having anyone on his line that can do anything but cycle along the boards. If you give him a true playmaker and/or a sniper to play with I'm sure that his ability to keep possession of the puck will come in quite handy and will lead to plenty of points. I don't see him ever being a PPG player but I think he could be a 45-60 point guy who adds a defensive element to a scoring line.

I also wasn't comparing Eriksson and Wandell as players, Eriksson is and always will be the superior player, no question about it. What I'm saying is that at some point, you have to commit to a player, you have to take off the floaties and say, sink or swim. Yeah he might make some mistakes but in my opinion, the long term rewards are far greater than the short term risks. Like I said, I'm not advocating us doing this right now. But perhaps at the start of next season when we have hopefully drawn from our depth at forward to address our needs on defense.

Larsen is basically in the same boat. We need to commit to him for the rest of the season, let him get accustomed to the NHL game, let him get used to playing point on the PP. If we do it soon we still might be able to reap the benefits come playoff time.

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