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Why Paul Martin is less important than Gogo (the longest post in forum history?)

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01-07-2011, 07:19 AM
  #1
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Why Paul Martin is less important than Gogo (the longest post in forum history?)

Disclaimer: I know, I know. Martin is a great skater, has a great stick, keeps a great gap and is part of a shut down duo that except for the past four games has been tremendous at keeping out goals since being put together during the game at Phoenix (game 14).
His 5 million dollar contract - in the greater scheme of things and looking at other contracts around the league - is all fair for a defender who can be a top pairing guy, play 23-25 minutes per night and contribute in all situations.

But…. as much as this is also down to Letang breaking out in a monstrous way and thus keeping Martin away from the first pairing, I feel vindicated that Martin was a very much imperfect solution for us, and I think Shero will regret having given him an NTC.
Quite often we see what we want to see (guilty too, sure) so I’ll try to challenge the majority perception (I think) of what Martin has been bringing for us with a heavy dose of stats (after 42 games).

And yes, yes, yes, I realize that it is unlikely that Martin's long term future is not with this team, thus making all of this very pointless and even more so premature. Just the same.

Even strength:Martin no longer leads this team in ES time. Letang and Orpik do. Michalek is getting closer. Gogo just a minute and change behind. This we probably didn't expect prior to the season.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce

QoC (ES): People here are often saying that our first two pairings are both our ‘shut down’ pairings. That’s not true. Our first unit overwhelmingly play opponents best and the difference in QoC is much smaller between the second and third pairing, than it is between the first and second. With that said, Martin-Michalek have been a shut down pairing in the sense that they’ve allowed a very, very low number of goals ES considering their ice-time, and have been almost non-factors offensively themselves. We’re talking Gill-Scuderi like numbers but without facing opponents best. Letang-Orpik have allowed about the same while scoring a lot more playing stronger opposition. Gogo-Engelland/Lovejoy have allowed a bit more playing less strong opposition and scored a lot more.
If your most expensive defender is not there to play against opponents best… or score a lot against the rest, then he has to be excelling at something else.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+15+16#snip=f

QoC numbers: Orpik: 0.055, Letang: 0.039, Martin: 0.006, Goligoski: -0.014, Michalek: -0.016.

This should be seen in relation to Quality of Team mates.
QoT (ES): Orpik: 0.185, Michalek: 0.079, Letang: 0.041, Martin: -0.118, Goligoski: -0.172

NB: These numbers are always relative to the players ‘rankings’ and Michalek has a poor one because he had a rough start to the season and hasn’t played with anyone who boosted scoring. Hence Martin improves his score, just as Letang improves Orpiks – and both profit from playing more with Crosby’s line than anyone else. Engelland/Lovejoy cut into Gogo, but it certainly stands to reason that Gogo usually has less support than any of the others, also because he rarely plays with Crosby while on his regular pairing (which is 3/4 of his ES time).

PK: Martin is our third option after Brooks and Michalek, with Letang starting to get closer.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce
BehindTheNet has a SH rating for the players based on a long list of parameters.

SH ratings: Orpik: 2.42, Letang: 0.87, Goligoski: 0.76, Michalek -1.01, Martin: -1.83

PP: Martin is our third option after Letang and Gogo. http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce
He has two PP goals, both of them unassisted and rather fluky ones in the blow-out win at Columbus. Five assists. Letang with 13 PP points, Gogo with 11.
On most teams, their most expensive defender is also the one who makes the PP click. We don’t get that from Martin and never will, as he has never been that kind of player. He flat out sucks at bringing the puck into the zone and doesn’t have a shot that needs respecting. Best thing you can say is that he is calm presence for the second unit and a deterrent to getting scored on while on the PP. I’d say that is not what you want from your most expensive D-man either, as this - improving the PP - is top-2 on the list of ‘glaring needs’ for the Pens.

Scoring:
Martin has 3 goals and 12 assists. Apart from the mentioned two PP goals in that 7-2 win (one of which counted as the GWG) Martin had an empty net goal against the Devils early in the season. After the hot start with 7 points in the first 7 games while playing with Letang, clearly the offense has dried up.
In total, Martin has been on the ice for 48 Penguin goals. He was on the ice for 22 goals for (17 against) over the first 14 games when playing regularly with Letang (goals against heavily influenced by Fleury sucking pond water). Of these, only two were on the PP. So, against less dangerous opposition since paired with Michalek, and counting that he has been on the ice for 9 PP goals and one SH goal since, that means Martin has been on the ice for a total of 16 Penguins goals ES over the past 28 games, which is a very small percentage of our ES goals considering his ice-time. Letang on the other hand has kept exactly the same scoring (points and 'on ice for') going with Orpik, so it likely wasn’t Martin influencing his numbers but the other way around.
Martin’s number looks pretty pathetic next to Letang and Gogo’s considering what a relative offensive engine he was supposed to be. He is on pace for ~ 30 points on a team scoring much more than what his Devils team did, and this further asks the question if we really need to pay 5 million dollars per year for that kind of production? Martin is tied for 69th in the league in ES scoring (8), his one goal as said being an empty netter. Letang is 2nd (22), Gogo 26th (12).

Physicality:
Martin is the least physical of all our defenders, and as a personal observation I also think he is the weakest in front of our net which is one of the main reasons he has the worst rating on the PK - and additionally, IMO, why he has consistently sucked for the Devils in the playoffs (have we real reason to expect something very different now?). An unfair but vivid sample can be had in the past four games since Crosby's streak ended, where Martin has been on the ice for four of the five ES goals conceded (only exception being Fleury’s howler against the Caps, which really cannot be held against Gogo-Engelland). Against the Islanders, Tampa and Montreal, on all three occasions these teams scored once and on all three occasions it was Martin’s man, rather unimpeded and in close.
Physicality was one of the things we needed to address this off-season, and whereas Michalek is no bruiser, he gets it done in front of the net Scuderi style. What has helped mask the fact that Martin does nothing to solve the need we had is that Letang and Orpik have done the most heavy lifting, and that Engelland has been sensational in this regard on the third line with Gogo. Also the fact that we don’t rely on Martin against opponents first PP unit. Again – it is not here we’re getting the return on the 5 million per year. This - along with size - is/was a relative need on the Pens and Martin does nothing to address it.

Defence:
While one simply cannot be impressed with Martin offensively, he is certainly very, very good defensively. He reads plays very well and very often prevents opponents from entering the zone with a good gap or smartly handling dump-ins. His break out passes are usually crisp and his number of give-aways is very low, and all this contributes to making his goals against numbers totally sick since being placed with Michalek. As this post is also about Gogo lets just say for the record, that Martin is a significantly better defensive player.
He has been on the ice for 32 goals against in total. As mentioned 17 of those were at the beginning with Letang, getting used to the team and Fleury being a spazz. Three of those were on the PK and one a SH against. That means that since then, he has been on the ice for just 15 goals against in 28 games. Five of these were on the PK. So that’s just 10 ES goals against in 28 games while playing 17 minutes per. That’s fantastic. Further, if you take away the last four games where he and Michalek (though less so) have suffered, we’re down to a ridiculous 6 ES goals against in 24 games. This is where Martin’s value is, and it is reflected in:

ES Goals against/60 minutes:
Martin: 1.90, (Engelland 1.90 ), Orpik: 1.93, Gogo: 2.02, Letang: 2.03, Michalek: 2.33 (Lovejoy: 2.67, think what this does for Gogo's number...).

The same numbers for the 24 game stretch mentioned obviously hold true for Michalek, but he is not the one out there when we exploit a good match-up which is another reason his numbers will always look worse on this team, and what you see. If you were to ask who is most often bailing his partner out from under a gaffe among Michalek and Martin 5 on 5 though, I doubt you'd answer Martin. In isolation however, never mind QoC, when it comes to preventing goals 5 on 5, these guys rock and they always did in the regular season also with their previous teams.

The question is, considering all the other things where I think Martin decidedly does not rock to the tune of 5 million, should we really want him to see out his contract with us considering what we otherwise have; have in the pipe-line and what the needs of this team are?

My point is that Martin is not the straw that stirs the drink, his impact on the offense is very limited, he is not a key to our great PK but rather a relative weakness for it. He is furthermore the least physical player we have. I concede that the sum is greater than the parts here and that he is good/adequate in all situations, but to me Martin would be very easy to replace on our team. Even to the extent that a decidedly inferior player could fill the same function as long as he was a good fit for Michalek and we accept that the second pairing is not there to score (which it doesn't anyway).

Of course, very few would even consider this, and for this season they shouldn’t either. But going forward… it just sickens me to see how many pick Gogo as the more desirable player to trade with what he is doing for us and of course what his contract is like.

Overall ratings of our D-men (ES) (which will always be skewed towards offense obviously): http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...+4+6+7+8+9+10#

Goligoski: 1.70, Letang: 1.39, Martin: 0.03, Orpik: - 0.09, Michalek: - 1.63
Note: Michalek’s and Orpik’s numbers are greatly influenced by their first five games when playing together (bad fit - and Fleury), and Michalek’s furthermore from not having played with either Letang or Gogo with any regularity (so, no scoring).

Which leads me to a long add on….
Gogo is now 3rd in the league in plus minus, he is 18th in scoring for D-men (look at the top30 and see how many are not first paring defenders…). He leads our D-men in goals (7) and our team with 4 GW goals, and has now been on the ice for just 5 less ES goals than Letang, despite playing with much less quality around him unless the two are paired up. So when we’re talking about Martin’s puck moving and transition play being an engine for offense despite it not showing up in points, this is true much, much more so for Alex Goligoski. He is on the ice for more goals for/60 minutes than any defender in the league (other than Matt Carle... whose main partner is Chris Pronger) who has played more than 10 games. This alone should tell you that Gogo is simply a player that mustn’t be traded, unless the return is amazing and we can also cover the gap that would open on D.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

His ES goals against/60 is very respectable and very close to Martin and Orpik’s if it wasn't for the games with Lovejoy (Goalsagainstski my hairy ass!). And in terms of differential between goals for/60 and goals against/60, again Gogo is best on the team (including forwards), AND second only to the plus/minus leader Meszaros league wide.

All this with less minutes, a much less accomplished partner and much less time with Sidney Crosby’s line (which has obviously been the big offensive catalyst) than Martin has. Gogo doesn’t play as difficult competition as Martin, but the gap is not at all as big as people let on, also because Gogo gets extra minutes with a rotating cast when not with Engelland/Lovejoy, and because away from home opponents try and get their best line out against our third pairing. Goligoski is second in the league in plus/minus away from home with +14… (Meszaros again). When on the PK, while playing a good deal less, Gogo is having better results than Martin. On the PP, Gogo is more risky but MUCH more of a threat and unlike with Martin there is reason to believe he can actually become great there. He is after all in only his second full season.

And you want to trade Gogo? Madness. Keeping him on the third pairing doesn’t hurt us at all defensively (as shown) and it is a massive boost for our offense without which we would suffer indeed, as we score very, very little with Martin and Michalek on the ice ES and cannot count on the PP to deliver. This is much more important than the difference we’d get with a better forward for Crosby than Dupuis.
On the other hand what Martin does for us can be ~/~ replaced for less while Gogo’s production could only be replaced by a player costing a lot more. Martin would additionally fetch a much bigger return, and whether it is Despres stepping in or through an UFA signing… cap-management wise it just makes SO much more sense dealing Martin after this season or next. I mean – what is Despres if not a bigger and grittier version of Martin? A great skater, good transition qualities and a strong penalty killer, but not so far a big point producer and not a force on the PP. While obviously not Martin quality right off the bat, next year or in two years, whatever, this is the role where he can be a replacement. Replacing what Gogo does….. pfffft.

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01-07-2011, 07:58 AM
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SirBrad
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This has to be Alex Goligoski's agent.

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01-07-2011, 08:00 AM
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This has to be Alex Goligoski's agent.
And his mission statement.

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01-07-2011, 08:07 AM
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I agree about Martin. He was great towards the beginning of the year, but his play has slowly tapered off. Not exactly what you want when you're only in the 1st year of a $5M/year contract. I think we overpaid for him by $1-$1.5M/season.

The one thing that stands out is SRH's comparison to Mark Eaton. The more I watch the games the more I see Mark Eaton with better wheels and a better pokecheck. Martin doesn't provide much in the offensive zone either.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. If Goligoski was on any other team the hype machine behind him would be roaring. He's become the whipping boy playing on the Pens.

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01-07-2011, 08:10 AM
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an interesting read for sure.

you missed out Martin's apparent inability to grow a mustache

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01-07-2011, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
The one thing that stands out is SRH's comparison to Mark Eaton. The more I watch the games the more I see Mark Eaton with better wheels and a better pokecheck. Martin doesn't provide much in the offensive zone either.
Again, Martin is so much better offensively than Eaton that this comparison isn't even worth discussing. It's the reason he makes twice as much money.

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01-07-2011, 08:22 AM
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-Behindthenet for QoC or overall ratings is not something I put much (any) stock in.

-If you want offense at ES and on the PP, Goligoski is better. We already knew this.

-Martin is much better defensively which is why he was signed

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01-07-2011, 08:29 AM
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Darth Vitale
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Some interesting stats, and you're to be commended for thinking critically about your assertion before making it (a rarity around here), but in the end I'm not prepared to write Martin off or to give Gogogadget a pass. The latter has made some unbelievably stupid defensive gaffes in the first half, and while he has his great offensive contribution games, he's not consistent in that dept either. I will say Goglarinski is much better at carrying the puck through traffic and into the zone on the PP, but that's about it. Both are undersized, both are not physical players / not a threat to anyone physically in the playoffs. OTOH, Martin is a much *smarter* defender and has better stickwork on the boards (huge in the playoffs).

Also not willing to write off Martin's playoff potential because let's face it the entire NJ TEAM sucked in the playoffs the last couple outings. Marty is getting older, Elias is getting older, and in general they just haven't been the Devils of yesteryear. They're about 40 games from rebuilding IMO. And I'm glad they seem to be picking a ****** draft year to do it (at least last I heard). All that is a long way of saying Martin could be a much more effective defender for us in the playoffs than he was in NJ, because of who is around him and the system we play.

I do agree about the NTC (I don't like them for most players, as most don't deserve them unless you're talking elite player which Martin isn't). But I'd say the #1 reason Golsagainstme is important right now, is that he could bring back a very solid top 6 winger in a trade. Not that he could never be good here but with Despres waiting in the wings and other FA D we could sign in the off-season who are better defensively than Gogs (I think it's pretty clear Letang is going to be our #1 PP guy)... what he can bring in a trade is what makes him more important (if anything).

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01-07-2011, 08:29 AM
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Judging contracts after 3 months rarely is a good idea.....

Letang stepping up so quickly and to this extent changed the dynamics of this defense so far. Perhaps with a crystal ball Shero would have done something different this summer. Maybe not. (and let's see if Letang keeps it up or tapers off...)

That said, Martin is a big part of this team defense and success, and we shouldn't be considering moving him until he could be adequately replaced. I don't think moving Goligoski up to the second pairing and rushing Despres onto the bottom pairing is the way to go. But if you want to bring this up after another two or three seasons.....


Also, I am pro-Goligoski as well.

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01-07-2011, 08:32 AM
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Darth Vitale
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And yes, that might be the longest post ever. Congratulations. Usually uber-long posts like that are a terrible read / full of poop, but yours is pretty good.

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01-07-2011, 08:47 AM
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I don't care if Martin isn't physical. Gogo gets bullied and pushed around in his own zone many times which Martin doesn't. Gogo's better offensively and Martin is better defensively. The most rounded of the 2 at this point is Martin and I'll take him any day over Gogo at the moment.

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01-07-2011, 08:48 AM
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I applaud you, brilliant post. You speak out of my heart, thank you!


Last edited by WVP: 01-07-2011 at 10:16 AM.
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01-07-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WVP View Post
Judging contracts after 3 months rarely is a good idea.....
With respect, that is not what I am doing. I don't think there was anything wrong with the contract other than the NTC, and I think Martin merits the money, just more so on another team where the qualities he has are more obviously in demand, and the relative weaknesses he has are better covered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WVP View Post
I don't think moving Goligoski up to the second pairing and rushing Despres onto the bottom pairing is the way to go. But if you want to bring this up after another two or three seasons.....
I think I already mentioned here and elsewhere, that I fully expect it to take at least another year before Despres is a regular in the NHL. Mentioning him is just because so many do as an excuse to say that Gogo can be traded.

What I am really saying is that after this season, should the NTC be negotiable, we could easily profit by flipping Martin for a very good winger or picks/prospects while signing a better fit for our team in free agency. Because while Martin IS a good fit for a second line shut down unit, paying him 5 million to be that with little scoring and him being mediocre on special teams... that is bad business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WVP View Post
Also, I am pro-Goligoski as well.
I know, you have taste after all .

Malko: Thanks!
I disagree too much with your objections to tackle those now though, and on this issue I believe you see what you want to see. After all you believed Gogo deserved a D in Cole's report card thread... which quite evidently is utter madness .

Milliardo: Vielen Dank.

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01-07-2011, 08:59 AM
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I don't see Martin/Goligoski as an either/or proposition - we can and almost certainly will keep both of them. The only reason to move Goligoski is if the team just can't get back into the Eastern Conference Finals by the time his contract is up, another team blows us away with a trade offer, and/or a prospect is head and shoulders ready to jump into the top 6. Even then, I still might be more willing to move Orpik before Gogo as I think Orpik has been struggling of late and his style of play may wear him down prematurely.

I think fans need to consider that Martin was never brought in to be an impact player. Instead, he is solid, quietly effective, and a skating and breakout machine. I think he's lived up to that, for the most part, and his pairing with Michalek has been awesome. It should also be considered that this is only 3 months into his deal, he has plenty of room to grow and become more comfortable using his offensive talents. It isn't his fault that Letang and Goligoski are both more natural offensive threats and receive greater PP time.

The only caveat is that I'm waiting to see how he holds up in the playoffs (mainly because I never keyed in on him while watching New Jersey's recent outings). I worry that his calm, methodical style will be taken advantage of by the intense, violent speed of play in the playoffs but we will see how he performs soon enough.

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01-07-2011, 09:02 AM
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GentlemanOfLeisure
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That's Paul Martin. His stats in Jersey don't lie. It wasnt the team's scheme causing his numbers to go down, it's that he isnt an offensive defenseman.

But he's solid and rarely makes mistakes. Not sure if that's worth 5 mill a year.

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01-07-2011, 09:05 AM
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Milliardo
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I think fans need to consider that Martin was never brought in to be an impact player. Instead, he is solid, quietly effective, and a skating and breakout machine.
I can't really believe that is what Shero was hoping for, because that is not a 5 million dollar player. Is Martin the highest paid defender in the league relative to his offensive game?


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01-07-2011, 09:09 AM
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TR... I have to give you a lot of credit for the great write-up and for bringing a great discussion to the board. Now I have to oppose it.

Your entire argument is backed up by stats. I literally can not go into your word-for-word argument and counter any one thing. What I can do is argue the fact that we are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Gogo. I hate to take the effort you put into this, and counter it with such a lazy statement like "apples to oranges", but unfortunately I have to.

Paul Martin's true worth to ANY team isn't about his goals/assists, rather his poise in the defensive zone. You can't put a stat on defensive ability. GMs, however, are starting to figure out just how important they are. That is driving the market price through the roof on these guys. That's how important they are to have on your team. Gap control, poise, defensive positioning, covering up mistakes, blocking shots, cleaning up the zone, quick transition passing, ability to break the puck out cleanly... those kind of stats don't really get put out there on a wide variety.

It really comes down to the Scuderi like factor. You can't compare Paul Martin to a lot of players. You can only ask what he does for the team and if his ability will help us in the post season. I think he's more than fairly priced even without the market being high for defenders like this. In fact, I think he could have gotten up to $6M if he wanted to sign elsewhere. For this discussion, goals/assists/plus-minus don't really play a big role. That's why we have guys like Gogo and Letang on the roster. That's their role.

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01-07-2011, 09:17 AM
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TR... I have to give you a lot of credit for the great write-up and for bringing a great discussion to the board. Now I have to oppose it.

Your entire argument is backed up by stats. I literally can not go into your word-for-word argument and counter any one thing. What I can do is argue the fact that we are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to Gogo. I hate you take the effort you put into this, and counter it with such a lazy statement like "apples to oranges", but unfortunately I have to.

Paul Martin's true worth to ANY team isn't about his goals/assists, rather his poise in the defensive zone. You can't put a stat on defensive ability. GMs, however, are starting to figure out just how important they are. That is driving the market price through the roof on these guys. That's how important they are to have on your team. Gap control, poise, defensive positioning, covering up mistakes, blocking shots, cleaning up the zone, quick transition passing, ability to break the puck out cleanly... those kind of stats don't really get put out there on a wide variety.

It really comes down to the Scuderi like factor. You can't compare Paul Martin to a lot of players. You can only ask what he does for the team and if his ability will help us in the post season. I think he's more than fairly priced even without the market being high for defenders like this. In fact, I think he could have gotten up to $6M if he wanted to sign elsewhere. For this discussion, goals/assists/plus-minus don't really play a big role. That's why we have guys like Gogo and Letang on the roster. That's their role.

I should've just waited for your post so I could say "what Cole said". You can't really judge the guys on the same criteria because they have somewhat different roles out there. And come playoff time I'll take Martin's defensive smarts and ability over Goligoski's occasional monster offensive game or the random Assist + rookie-like defensive mistakes any day.

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01-07-2011, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by GentlemanOfLeisure View Post
That's Paul Martin. His stats in Jersey don't lie. It wasnt the team's scheme causing his numbers to go down, it's that he isnt an offensive defenseman.

But he's solid and rarely makes mistakes. Not sure if that's worth 5 mill a year.
People here will have a tough time swallowing reality like this. I wasnt a fan at all of the signing of either of the two Dmen we got. I felt they were overpriced for what they are.

Martin's contract is replacing a 70+ point Dman who played in all situations from it, comparing it to that I think it's a big dud of a signing.

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01-07-2011, 09:24 AM
  #20
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What Cole and Champagne Wishes said.

Also, I think it's unfair to judge a player 3 months into a 5 year contract. I think he's playing pretty well, but he's still getting acclimated.

Remember people wanted to run Gonch out of town his first couple years as a Pen, and then suddenly he was a poor man's Lidstrom.

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01-07-2011, 09:25 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
I should've just waited for your post so I could say "what Cole said". You can't really judge the guys on the same criteria because they have somewhat different roles out there. And come playoff time I'll take Martin's defensive smarts and ability over Goligoski's occasional monster offensive game or the random Assist + rookie-like defensive mistakes any day.
1. What Cole said.

2. I don't think that anyone "wants" to trade Gologoski. What people want is a legitimate 5th top six winger. And, if there's a hockey trade that allows you to do it (and to bring back a solid defenseman)-- i.e., a trade that makes this team better-- then you consider doing it and do what other teams do in the playoffs-- i.e., ride the top 2 pairing defensemen 23-27 minutes each.

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01-07-2011, 09:27 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
People here will have a tough time swallowing reality like this.

Martin's contract is replacing a 70+ point Dman who played in all situations from it, comparing it to that I think it's a big dud of a signing.

It's not reality, it's opinion based on stats that tell one part of a story.

And Martin is not replacing Gonchar; Letang replaced Gonchar positionally and role-wise. Martin and Michalek are two pieces we simply didn't have last year. Is he over-priced? You can argue it certainly but there is no denying he and Michalek make this a much better defensive team. Gonch was never great defensively, was slow and expensive himself... so let's not sugar-coat that. I loved the guy while he was here but time to move on. It was always the plan that he would be replaced by another offensive D already on our roster, and he was. Martin is a defensive D with offensive upside, not the other way around.

I'll take our D today over any D we've had in the Crosby era in a heartbeat, and if you want to point out a weak link it's Goligoski (for now... he may have a break-out year next year like Letang did this year if we don't trade him but certainly not guaranteed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK
2. I don't think that anyone "wants" to trade Gologoski. What people want is a legitimate 5th top six winger. And, if there's a hockey trade that allows you to do it (and to bring back a solid defenseman)-- i.e., a trade that makes this team better-- then you consider doing it and do what other teams do in the playoffs-- i.e., ride the top 2 pairing defensemen 23-27 minutes each.
I agree for the most part and noted that in my original post. There's no reason to be "eager" to trade Goligoski, only that you have to consider him our best trade asset to get a good young winger, given where the depth on our roster and in our system is, and what kind of player we're looking for money-wise.

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01-07-2011, 09:50 AM
  #23
Lionel Hutz
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You know, I actually really like Goligonski. I think he's a great young player and he is only going to get better. In a perfect world I'd love to see the Pens keep him and go out and acquire more capable linemates for Sid and Geno to give the team the scoring depth it so sorely needs.

Because of the cap and the reality that you have to give to get, that's not possible. If the pens are to become deeper offensive they will likely, and unfortunately, have to unload someone. Unless I guess if the cap goes up and someone suitable is signed in the offseason.

When I look at the roster, the only expendable asset I see with sufficient value to net a real quality player or players in return is Goligonski. Without him, the team has 2 very solid pairings and an improving Engelland on D and hopefully NHL ready prospects in the near future. I think the team would be much improved but sacrificing a very good young defenceman to add some scoring punch.

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01-07-2011, 09:52 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Hutz View Post
You know, I actually really like Goligonski. I think he's a great young player and he is only going to get better. In a perfect world I'd love to see the Pens keep him and go out and acquire more capable linemates for Sid and Geno to give the team the scoring depth it so sorely needs.

Because of the cap and the reality that you have to give to get, that's not possible. If the pens are to become deeper offensive they will likely, and unfortunately, have to unload someone. Unless I guess if the cap goes up and someone suitable is signed in the offseason.

When I look at the roster, the only expendable asset I see with sufficient value to net a real quality player or players in return is Goligonski
. Without him, the team has 2 very solid pairings and an improving Engelland on D. I think the team would be much improved but sacrificing a very good young defenceman to add some scoring punch.
THIS

Still think you'd have to make another move to bring in a solid defenseman, either in the Gogo deal or another deal, because Lovejoy/Englland as a 5/6 . . . ouch.

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01-07-2011, 09:55 AM
  #25
Lionel Hutz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkochalek View Post
And Martin is not replacing Gonchar; Letang replaced Gonchar positionally and role-wise. Martin and Michalek are two pieces we simply didn't have last year.
Totally agree on both these points. The secession plan for Gonchar was hoping Letang could step up and giving him the opportunity to do so, not the signing of Martin.

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