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Old
01-07-2011, 09:39 AM
  #1
Jack Bourdain
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Drafting "star" forwards

I was just wondering, apart from Plekanec, who else have the Habs drafted and developed that went on to become PPG or near (50-60 pts category)?

I can't think of any/many in the last decade, except Ribeiro who was drafted in 98...Andrei Kostitsyn? Chris Higgins? Not consistent enough to be considered in that category I find.

I'm just kind of saddened that we haven't had a player like this (apart Plekanec again) while other teams have 2-3. I love that we have capable scorers in Camalleri and Gionta, but it would be cool if it was a young kid that was developed within the organization.

Don't know what the point of the thread is, just felt like discussing this "reality" (for me, atleast).

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01-07-2011, 09:50 AM
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macavoy
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Do you know of any teams that didn't tank that drafted 2 star forwards of Pleks calibre? Players that good don't come along that often and stick with the organization.

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01-07-2011, 09:51 AM
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We'd have these 50-60 point players on our team if we would keep them long enough so that they could develop.

Grabovski falls under your category...he's on pace for 65 points this year.

Another guy is Latendresse. As is Streit.

We'll find out if Sergei Kostitsyn can be added to that as well.

As you mentioned, Ribeiro also is this sort of player.

The problem in Montreal is lack of patience by everyone and the fact that the media blows things out of proportion both in terms of hate(as seen in the case of Sergei and Grabovski soon to be Andrei) and overrating (as seen in the case of Latendresse and soon to be Desharnais ).

Also in Montreal we have this tendancy of changing a player's nature, we want everyone to become this superb two-way player that we just end up stifiling their real talents.

Soon to be added to the list is Andrei Kostitsyn. I guarentee once he gets traded, he'll become what we have been expecting.

I just named you 5 players that fit under what you are looking for, the problem isn't drafting, the problem is something else and IMO the problem is pretty clear.

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01-07-2011, 10:00 AM
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Jack Bourdain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Do you know of any teams that didn't tank that drafted 2 star forwards of Pleks calibre? Players that good don't come along that often and stick with the organization.
Colorado is the first team that comes to mind.

Not Duchene, but Stastny and Stewart.

Then Buffalo with Vanek, Roy and Pominville.

Then (yes) the Devils with Zajac and Parise.

The Flyers with Giroux, Richards and Carter. When they sucked, they got JVR, so it isn't about always drafting top 5.

I'm sure we could do a good list for many teams.

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01-07-2011, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
We'd have these 50-60 point players on our team if we would keep them long enough so that they could develop.

Grabovski falls under your category...he's on pace for 65 points this year.

Another guy is Latendresse. As is Streit.

We'll find out if Sergei Kostitsyn can be added to that as well.

As you mentioned, Ribeiro also is this sort of player.

The problem in Montreal is lack of patience by everyone and the fact that the media blows things out of proportion both in terms of hate(as seen in the case of Sergei and Grabovski soon to be Andrei) and overrating (as seen in the case of Latendresse and soon to be Desharnais ).

Also in Montreal we have this tendancy of changing a player's nature, we want everyone to become this superb two-way player that we just end up stifiling their real talents.

Soon to be added to the list is Andrei Kostitsyn. I guarentee once he gets traded, he'll become what we have been expecting.

I just named you 5 players that fit under what you are looking for, the problem isn't drafting, the problem is something else and IMO the problem is pretty clear.
Agreed. I don't think that the draft is the problem.

In the trades, I hate the fact the wealmost got nothing in return while our departed player has contributed (even slightly) to his new team.
Ex:
Ribeiro vs Niinima
Halak vs Eller (too soon to tell, but actually Halak contributes much much more)
Grabovski
Kostitsyn
D'Agostini
Chipchura

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01-07-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Colorado is the first team that comes to mind.

Not Duchene, but Stastny and Stewart.

Then Buffalo with Vanek, Roy and Pominville.

Then (yes) the Devils with Zajac and Parise.

The Flyers with Giroux, Richards and Carter. When they sucked, they got JVR, so it isn't about always drafting top 5.

I'm sure we could do a good list for many teams.
I gave you a list of players who would fit what you are looking for. We have drafted properly, but we've gotten rid of the players before they could do anything because of fans with no patience getting on players' cases and the media constantly bashing and looking for stories. If they are not doing this, then they are overrated a player and putting the world on his shoulders like Latendresse.

I'd also like to add that Martin seems to be another problem...I really don't like the way he handles players. Since he's been year, D'agostini, Chipchura, Latendresse, Sergei, O'byrne and Lapierre have all been shipped out IN LESS THAN A YEAR!.

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01-07-2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Bourdain View Post
Colorado is the first team that comes to mind.

Not Duchene, but Stastny and Stewart.

Then Buffalo with Vanek, Roy and Pominville.

Then (yes) the Devils with Zajac and Parise.

The Flyers with Giroux, Richards and Carter. When they sucked, they got JVR, so it isn't about always drafting top 5.

I'm sure we could do a good list for many teams.
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted very late by the Wings

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01-07-2011, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
Agreed. I don't think that the draft is the problem.

In the trades, I hate the fact the wealmost got nothing in return while our departed player has contributed (even slightly) to his new team.
Ex:
Ribeiro vs Niinima
Halak vs Eller (too soon to tell, but actually Halak contributes much much more)
Grabovski
Kostitsyn
D'Agostini
Chipchura
Grabovski got us Langer, if not for injury he was among our top scorers..

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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Datsyuk and Zetterberg were drafted very late by the Wings
I don't count that against them, since your talking about two of the top forwards in the game. But the wings are among the best at the draft in terms of finding later round gems and winning consistently.

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01-07-2011, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Do you know of any teams that didn't tank that drafted 2 star forwards of Pleks calibre? Players that good don't come along that often and stick with the organization.
Anaheim with Getzlaf and Perry as well.

Stars don't only exist in the top 5 you know...

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01-07-2011, 10:23 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Do you know of any teams that didn't tank that drafted 2 star forwards of Pleks calibre? Players that good don't come along that often and stick with the organization.
Anaheim 2003 Draft
Ryan Getzlaf 19th
Corey Perry 28th

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01-07-2011, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
We'd have these 50-60 point players on our team if we would keep them long enough so that they could develop.

Grabovski falls under your category...he's on pace for 65 points this year.

Another guy is Latendresse. As is Streit.

We'll find out if Sergei Kostitsyn can be added to that as well.

As you mentioned, Ribeiro also is this sort of player.

The problem in Montreal is lack of patience by everyone and the fact that the media blows things out of proportion both in terms of hate(as seen in the case of Sergei and Grabovski soon to be Andrei) and overrating (as seen in the case of Latendresse and soon to be Desharnais ).

Also in Montreal we have this tendancy of changing a player's nature, we want everyone to become this superb two-way player that we just end up stifiling their real talents.

Soon to be added to the list is Andrei Kostitsyn. I guarentee once he gets traded, he'll become what we have been expecting.

I just named you 5 players that fit under what you are looking for, the problem isn't drafting, the problem is something else and IMO the problem is pretty clear.
I think its more then patience the plot is pretty clear... Ribeiro, Ryder, Latendresse, Grabovski, Sergei koststitsyn... to name a few. Our problem is certainly NOT drafting. Players development may be a little. I think the pressure cooker Montreal is killing our talent. We can't tolerate marginals and we make gods of kids that are 18year old before they can even show up what they have to offer. Look at Desharnais now, the panalists in RDS spend half a TV show saying how good he was and how everything is so much better then when Eller was on that line... They will make him a god before he has time to score is first goal.

A hockey career in Montreal is automatically a bound to disaster. To this we now have to consider the playing style which leaves very little room for good stats. I bet you that as soon as we trade AK46 he will go score 40G elswhere... sad but unfortunatly accurate. Lets just hope that we will be patient enough with Pouliot, Eller and Pacioretty....

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01-07-2011, 10:39 AM
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It seems that in Montreal, players are not able to bring it. They all seem better playing for other teams(Ribs, Latendress, Streit, Grabo, Sergei K. just to name a few)
I understand to OP....no real consistent players in Montreal aside from checkers.
One thing is for sure.....goaltending has always come trough.

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01-07-2011, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
I think its more then patience the plot is pretty clear... Ribeiro, Ryder, Latendresse, Grabovski, Sergei koststitsyn... to name a few. Our problem is certainly NOT drafting. Players development may be a little. I think the pressure cooker Montreal is killing our talent. We can't tolerate marginals and we make gods of kids that are 18year old before they can even show up what they have to offer. Look at Desharnais now, the panalists in RDS spend half a TV show saying how good he was and how everything is so much better then when Eller was on that line... They will make him a god before he has time to score is first goal.

A hockey career in Montreal is automatically a bound to disaster. To this we now have to consider the playing style which leaves very little room for good stats. I bet you that as soon as we trade AK46 he will go score 40G elswhere... sad but unfortunatly accurate. Lets just hope that we will be patient enough with Pouliot, Eller and Pacioretty....
I think the bright lights and nightlife were too much for Ribeiro and SK. Obviously in Dallas and Nashville those guys don't get a lot of attention just for being on the team.

The problem with Latendresse was they saw him as a grinder for some reason but as we see in Minny he has well above average skill. Obviously like O'byrne part of that is having you coach's confidence...if the coach tells you to go out and play and puts you on a 2nd line with guys that can pass you the puck you feel a lot better than being played with Kostopoulos and Lapierre on a grinding line. Latendresse and Ob are very similar situations.

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01-07-2011, 10:53 AM
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Stars don't only exist in the top 5 you know...
Looks like I got schooled.

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01-07-2011, 11:18 AM
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Personally I don't see a big problem with the draft but with 2 things:

1) Montreal's system has been for a long time mostly defensive and the team philosophy favors responsible players with very good off-the-ice attitude. A lot of star forwards in the league tend to be just that, stars, and usually have an attitude that is both frowned upon when too visible but also that leads them to be more of the party type and being super-stars in Montreal just by being on the Habs gives a lot of opportunity for partying. Not everyone is Ovechkin who can party and own the next day. Montreal's young potential offensive stars seem to be left a bit too much to themselves, I'd really like to see concrete moves from the organisation to keep them more in check and help teach them what it means to be a pro here. Otherwise, they better be really careful about the attitude of the players when they draft (risk missing high-end talent this way though).

2) Coaching tends to be extremely harsh on youth here since a while. Because of the pressure to win while usually having only an average team, they do not let anything go from rookie players and tend to just break their confidence pretty quickly. When confined to play in a defensive system where it's hard to express their abilities AND put in conditions that are not favorable to produce (always on 3rd-4th line with pluggers) it can be very hard to develop in an offensive star. Defensive mistakes are very harshly penalized on young players (and mostly ignored from veterans).

I have to say that I do not like at all how Martin is handling most of the young players either. Will give him a chance because I realize some of what he does is for long-term benefit and I prefer that to short-term, but he's not inspiring confidence and the amount of young players that left the organisation since he took place is somewhat scary. The way he handled AK and Pouliot this year kinda disgusted me. Eller and Subban I have a bit of a hard time too but not as much as they truly ARE rookies and some stuff they better learn quickly the hard way than start developping bad habits.

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01-07-2011, 11:20 AM
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drafting poorly, or developing poorly? Not to mention the pressure in Montreal to play well right away....

For once, I would like us to make a deal for the first overall, and then get the can't miss guy.....I wonder if the Isles, or the Oilers, or Bruins ( leafs pick ) would be interested in June?

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01-07-2011, 11:22 AM
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Sorry I thought the thread said star forwards, not just forwards in general.

Its like Habs fans have some kind of memory block, they see an ex player doing good somewhere else and point a finger at the habs organization for not getting anything in return. Its really funny/pathetic.

Ribeiro was pretty much as hated as a guy can get in Monty, everyone was saying theyre glad that he was gone and any return was a good return ( a bag of pucks would have been ok.)

Ryder Is not a 30/30 guy anymore.

Latendresse I didnt know one seasons burst of goals made him a 60 point guy (when he hits 40 points he can be in this discussion?)

Grabovski Is only scoring points because he is on the first line in T.O, Put him in Monty and he doesn't even come close.

Sergei koststitsyn. lol.

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01-07-2011, 11:25 AM
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Add Philly with Richards, Giroux, and Carter.

As mentioned, Anaheim with Perry and Getzlaf.

Our player development is terrible, and our first round drafting is pathetic.

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01-07-2011, 11:29 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
Personally I don't see a big problem with the draft but with 2 things:

1) Montreal's system has been for a long time mostly defensive and the team philosophy favors responsible players with very good off-the-ice attitude. A lot of star forwards in the league tend to be just that, stars, and usually have an attitude that is both frowned upon when too visible but also that leads them to be more of the party type and being super-stars in Montreal just by being on the Habs gives a lot of opportunity for partying. Not everyone is Ovechkin who can party and own the next day. Montreal's young potential offensive stars seem to be left a bit too much to themselves, I'd really like to see concrete moves from the organisation to keep them more in check and help teach them what it means to be a pro here. Otherwise, they better be really careful about the attitude of the players when they draft (risk missing high-end talent this way though).

2) Coaching tends to be extremely harsh on youth here since a while. Because of the pressure to win while usually having only an average team, they do not let anything go from rookie players and tend to just break their confidence pretty quickly. When confined to play in a defensive system where it's hard to express their abilities AND put in conditions that are not favorable to produce (always on 3rd-4th line with pluggers) it can be very hard to develop in an offensive star. Defensive mistakes are very harshly penalized on young players (and mostly ignored from veterans).

I have to say that I do not like at all how Martin is handling most of the young players either. Will give him a chance because I realize some of what he does is for long-term benefit and I prefer that to short-term, but he's not inspiring confidence and the amount of young players that left the organisation since he took place is somewhat scary. The way he handled AK and Pouliot this year kinda disgusted me. Eller and Subban I have a bit of a hard time too but not as much as they truly ARE rookies and some stuff they better learn quickly the hard way than start developping bad habits.
I agree with every word of this. This seems to be a disconnect between the style of play the management wants to implement and the style of play of the players they draft. If they want responsible, good attitude, two-ways players, then draft those type of players. Stop drafting offensive players who need to their thing if you are just going to try and change their game completely.

Latendresse, Sergei, Andrei, Pouliot etc have all had the same problem, they weren't allowed to express what they are good at. The coaches have been trying to get them to play diff games. For Latendresse, they wanted him to be a Powerforward, when he is more of a sniper where he finds open ice to fire his shot.

They were pushing Sergei to be a 3rd line two-way player who's main priority would be defense first.

For Andrei, they are trying to turn him into some two-way Hossa-type player, but it's not working, let him play his offensive game, which is a pure give and go game.

They want Pouliot to be an aggressive net crasher, with a strong two-way game when he is more of a skilled dangler, give and go player.

Couple all these factors with the pressure that comes from playing in Montreal from both the fans and media, I'm not surprised these players fail to reach their potential.

I understand that coaches want their players to be well-rounded, but in Montreal the coaches push that so much that it just stifles the parts of the game that these players are good at.

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01-07-2011, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
drafting poorly, or developing poorly? Not to mention the pressure in Montreal to play well right away....

For once, I would like us to make a deal for the first overall, and then get the can't miss guy.....I wonder if the Isles, or the Oilers, or Bruins ( leafs pick ) would be interested in June?
This.

And now with JM's system. I don't think they'll be more.

Our last drafted 30 goals scorer is Ryder.

It's been a while.

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01-07-2011, 11:35 AM
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Looks like I got schooled.
HAHA. At least you're willing to admit it. I salute you.

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01-07-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
drafting poorly, or developing poorly? Not to mention the pressure in Montreal to play well right away....

For once, I would like us to make a deal for the first overall, and then get the can't miss guy.....I wonder if the Isles, or the Oilers, or Bruins ( leafs pick ) would be interested in June?
In today's younger and faster NHL I doubt you'd be able to get the first overall. Maybe I don't know but if you ask me you'd have to gut your team to get it.

Also he's not a forward but we sure hit a home run with Andrei Markov - Drafted 162nd overall in the 6th round.

Plekanec in the 3rd round.

So it's not entirely horrible. Not great either though.

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01-07-2011, 12:09 PM
  #23
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Well, I hope the team is going for the Coyle/Kuznetsov type of pick this year with our hopefully-20's pick instead of the Tinordi type.

I mean, you KNOW in advance you're not getting a star with a Tinordi pick. Slim odds you do with the others also. But hey, somebody always does find one somewhere in the bunch of candidates down there. And we're overdue. Sooo....

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01-07-2011, 12:16 PM
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I agree with every word of this. This seems to be a disconnect between the style of play the management wants to implement and the style of play of the players they draft. If they want responsible, good attitude, two-ways players, then draft those type of players. Stop drafting offensive players who need to their thing if you are just going to try and change their game completely.

Latendresse, Sergei, Andrei, Pouliot etc have all had the same problem, they weren't allowed to express what they are good at. The coaches have been trying to get them to play diff games. For Latendresse, they wanted him to be a Powerforward, when he is more of a sniper where he finds open ice to fire his shot.

They were pushing Sergei to be a 3rd line two-way player who's main priority would be defense first.

For Andrei, they are trying to turn him into some two-way Hossa-type player, but it's not working, let him play his offensive game, which is a pure give and go game.

They want Pouliot to be an aggressive net crasher, with a strong two-way game when he is more of a skilled dangler, give and go player.

Couple all these factors with the pressure that comes from playing in Montreal from both the fans and media, I'm not surprised these players fail to reach their potential.

I understand that coaches want their players to be well-rounded, but in Montreal the coaches push that so much that it just stifles the parts of the game that these players are good at.
I agree !

How many more 25-26 y. old and younger players are the Habs gonna give away ?

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01-07-2011, 12:23 PM
  #25
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I agree !

How many more 25-26 y. old and younger players are the Habs gonna give away ?
people on this board already want pouliot gone.

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