what price are we paying? 5th and 7th round picks?
If we have Grabo back in 2008-09, and he puts up 20 goals and over 40 points for us (as he did for Toronto that year), then we may never have bothered to go out and get Scott Gomez....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolument90
Wait til Andrei leaves...
Andrei's a bit different.
Andrei has played over 300 NHL games. Andrei is a seasoned NHL vet. He's only a couple years removed from his prime, for crying out loud.
We have been plenty patient with Andrei.
Honestly, I'd like to know what makes people think Andrei is going to explode offensively on another team. He has had years and years and years of being a Top Six winger on Montreal. His situation is far different from that of his younger brother, or that of Grabo.
Grabovsky, SK, Lats, Ribeiro etc were shipped away because they thought they were bigger than the team. It usually takes getting traded to get the wake up call since being demoted or benched wasn't working.
I think it is an easy cop out to blame the "management". I view it as young guys who are worshipped to no end in a city that is delirious about hockey. Habs fans like no other pimp up their prospects (and other players) to believe they are God when they are too young to handle it. If I was 20 yrs old and everywhere I went I was idolized...I would think I was the cat's ass too. Not to mention that Montreal is a pretty hardcore party city for players.
No one will ever know if they would have matured enough to reach potential in Montreal. One can blame management for not being patient enough but fans would not allow players to get accustomed to the NHL with first line minutes and lose like they do in Toronto.
No man, I don't think this is as common as you think...
That's what I'm trying to figure out though, why a team would do this.
it just so happened that the Habs were the ones who decided to part with two of their prospects for nothing.
Yes, Lang was most definitely valuable for that one year until he got injured. BUt you knew what was going to happen in the off season: if you didn't overpay him for his role he would bolt to the KHL.
Lang has always been a "money first, team second" kind of guy. I don't know if having him for one year justifies how Grabovski was handled.
You guys are most definitely right in saying that certain players just don't "work" with certain teams. But I want to know WHY the Habs, a good organization, couldn't raise a promising prospect like Ron Wilson did..
Essentially Ron Wilson is responsible for making Grabs a great player. Maybe it's because they're both confident and that rubbed off on Grabovski, who knows. I just think that it's wrong for TML to have such a good player on their team. I want to buy one of his jerseys but I refuse to buy a leafs jersey.. It's too ugly.
Habs red would have been much nicer
Lang was a great team player while in Montreal, so I don't know where the hate comes from. He didn't leave because of money. It was the summer of the great purge here and no one survived... not even Tom Kostopoulos. Lang had a major injury and it was unclear of what his condition would be the following season. He signed a 1 year deal in Phoenix for just ~ $1.5M. Not a money issue whatsoever.
And it's pretty common. Look at Florida this year having given up on Grabner and Stewart, and the great seasons they're having. Going back in time, look at early careers of guys like Briere, St. Louis. Look at Pouliot who barely got 4th line minutes and couldn't produce in Minnesota, but is an important piece in Montreal.
In Grabovski's case, look at the Iginla for Nieuwendyk trade. Dallas knew they had a good prospect, but they were a contender and Nieuwy put them over the top. Grabo is no Iggy, and we weren't quite in such a great position to go for a Cup, but similar move. Trade someone who is a couple of years off for someone to help you now. That is extremely common.
Yes, it would be nice now to see Grabovski in a Habs jersey. But go back 1 year, and even the Leafs were ready to cast him off for nothing. He just happened to develop well. Good for him + them.
Lang was a great team player while in Montreal, so I don't know where the hate comes from. He didn't leave because of money. It was the summer of the great purge here and no one survived... not even Tom Kostopoulos. Lang had a major injury and it was unclear of what his condition would be the following season. He signed a 1 year deal in Phoenix for just ~ $1.5M. Not a money issue whatsoever.
And it's pretty common. Look at Florida this year having given up on Grabner and Stewart, and the great seasons they're having. Going back in time, look at early careers of guys like Briere, St. Louis. Look at Pouliot who barely got 4th line minutes and couldn't produce in Minnesota, but is an important piece in Montreal.
In Grabovski's case, look at the Iginla for Nieuwendyk trade. Dallas knew they had a good prospect, but they were a contender and Nieuwy put them over the top. Grabo is no Iggy, and we weren't quite in such a great position to go for a Cup, but similar move. Trade someone who is a couple of years off for someone to help you now. That is extremely common.
Yes, it would be nice now to see Grabovski in a Habs jersey. But go back 1 year, and even the Leafs were ready to cast him off for nothing. He just happened to develop well. Good for him + them.
I think putting up 50 points on the Flames in the "clutch-n-grab" NHL would essentially put Nieuwendyk in the top 10 percent of the NHL when it came to play. I know Iginla was a good prospect at the time, but I think that was a calculated gamble.
Getting back a player who produces 50+ points in the clutchngrab NHL for a sure-fire first line prospect that's a two-three years away from becoming a VERY good player is a fair price.
Grabovski for that plugger prospect + second == not so much. But I do understand what you're saying. Often to get quality players you must trade away quality prospects, but I think that this case isn't exactly that.
EDIT: The money thing about Lang is speaking from experience when he refused to take a fair price from detroit. Apparently that 7 million a year we were paying him PRE-cap NHL never really allowed him to say "hey, you guys still want me at a fairer price? ok"
Hey didn't we also get Mats Sundin negociating rights along with that 2nd for Grabovski?
And Grabovski was on the third line behind Koivu and Plekanec, there was no room for him to play an offensive role. But there's no doubt that the kid had skills. I think I remember at the time everyone was mad that our top 3 centers were small and I remember the impact Lang had when he joined. It's too bad he got injured, wasn't he leading the team in scoring before his injury?
I am not saying that it's OKAY to behave like that, I'm just saying that if the end-game can produce a player that's in the NHL's top 20
A what? Are we still talking about Graboski here? NHL's top 20...?
Yes, Grabovski turner his game around pretty nicely but
1) Could he have done it in Montreal? Some players NEED a change of scenery and get traded to get a mature boost and get out of bad habits, etc. Grabovski was a total punk here and it's hard to keep players like that around.
2) Would he have developped so well in a team that actually had more than 2-3 decent offensive players? Grabovski in TO got TONS of ice time and was used on the PP, etc. which he would have never had in a better team that actually had better forwards than he was. And while he is getting better now, he was in no way a 2-way player (not sure how he is right now on this account, I watch Leafs games once in a while but I never remember being impressed by his defensive play), and a 1-way player that makes 50-60 points if used in profusely in offensive situations does not make the first line of a winning team.
3) Would he perform as well in an environment where your team has pressure to actually win something? Sure in Toronto they WANT to, but each year they're totally out of the playoff picture months ahead of time. It's so much easier for players to produce offensively in this kind of situation because they can just try things, if they lose honestly it's like who cares. Sure they'd prefer to win, but it's not like teams that really NEED every 2 points and where players will get benched if they gamble the game.
Grabovski improved quite a bit and put points on the board, but nothing tells me that the Habs should've kept him. Not with the situation the way it was back the. Just like Sergei or Latendresse, I don't CARE what they're doing somewhere else, because they would not have done it here. Montreal is a hard environment to play in and once you hit a wall the way these players did where they were problems off the ice while having a hard time contributing on it, they just need to get out. And sadly, it's hard to get a good return for a player that's doing pretty bad on the ice even if he has talent when he was a 5th-7th round pick. I wish we got a bit more for them, but it's soooo easy to come back after a few years and say 'Habs should've kept him!' and ignoring how everything was at the moment of the trade.
Habs are actually starting to develop some very nice prospects lately though, so I think they improved in that respect.
Hey didn't we also get Mats Sundin negociating rights along with that 2nd for Grabovski?
And Grabovski was on the third line behind Koivu and Plekanec, there was no room for him to play an offensive role. But there's no doubt that the kid had skills. I think I remember at the time everyone was mad that our top 3 centers were small and I remember the impact Lang had when he joined. It's too bad he got injured, wasn't he leading the team in scoring before his injury?
Grabovski was still young. There was no need to rush him in a top 6 role. At this point, who cares if we happen to have 3 offensive lines...how about making it our real identity?
Yep, our center line was small....I'm sorry but yet again, how many years have we waited to get a young promising big centerman? What's another year without one anyway? But what it would have given us is a little perspective....a little idea as to what he's capable of and who could have been expendable because of it. How about giving a real chance to people with talent? If we would have done that, it would have given us a whole lot of possibilities. It doesn't even mean that he would not be traded. If REALLY we wanted to get rid of him, even in a 3rd liner role, he would have had a better value than what we received at the time where his "personality" could have been a problem.
The idea is not about who we traded.....It's about developing our young guys the best way possible. And not only the first rounders deserve it...whoever has the talent should have. And ESPECIALLY when you have a head scout who seems to be able to discover some gems past the 1st round....
As far as Lang is concerned....yes he had a good season. Being on top of the scorer list in a year that saw Alex Kovalev be the 1st scorer with 65 points....And while he's not like the tons of guys we've acquired for 1 year that filled a spot and moved away after, the end result is still that we decided not to go with him after 1 year after letting a 2nd rounder go....like Moore...and maybe like Wiz....And for whoever keeps laughing at the fact that we just lose a 2nd rounder and that this is the only thing people worry about in this board....no need to remember that we drafted PK Subban in the 2nd round...and Latendresse....and the tons of guys in all the drafts that saw some of them becoming better than their 1st rounder counterparts....
So you end up losing those 2nd rounders...and Grabovski....and have to acquire a 7 M$ centerman for 5 years and should I remind you.....not that much bigger than Grabovski on top of that.
Bad asset management and bad evaluation. I have no idea why people want to deny this.
1) Could he have done it in Montreal? Some players NEED a change of scenery and get traded to get a mature boost and get out of bad habits, etc. Grabovski was a total punk here and it's hard to keep players like that around.
This really HAS to stop. Why wouldn't he? You hear some people think and start to believe that no youngster would ever be able to develop. Is MaxPac developing nicely? Oh but I guess it's because he's a good young man with no attitude problem, yet his "declaration" was perceived by some as something but I guess not enough. Okay then so....how is Subban doing? It does seem with a kid with some bad habits and attitude problems isn't he? And when we talk about pressure...how about the guy who keeps hearing PK, PK, PK all the time...how about that pressure? Aren't we convince that he'll do it here? How about Price with all his bad habits? Isn't he doing it?
Grabovski didn't need a change of scenery...he needed some confidence. He needed a change of attitude towards him. He needed to have the same chances that a guy like MaxPac had when he first joined in or like Eller is having right now despite 0 results. And don't start with "Well he was lazy and all...". Sorry but he wasn't. He needed confidence. I don't understand how people can't see this, can't see what confidence does to you. Grabovski was NOT a total punk...he had 1 incident that needed to be taken care of....but it didn't have to come to this. The guy was totally confident that he was better than most players on the team. He thought that their actions towards him was unjustified. And guess what...he was right. There's nothing more that I hate that a guy who conducts himself like he's the 2nd coming of and in the end fails to deliver. I always mention that Bulis thing when Mr. Bulis after scoring his 4 goals in a game thought he was Maurice Richard and after, he wanted to be an offensive player....didn't want to play in the 3rd line anymore....So he was traded and then proved....nothing. So here you go, Bulis is a punk, didn't deserve his chance here and proved he didn't deserve it by being a failure elsewhere. But it's not the same story with SKost....with Grabs...and even with Lats.
But no...we prefer hiding ourselves behind the "He wouldn't have done it here..." Sorry but that's total BS to me. That phrase can be exclusively reserved to the guys with the most pressure of them all. 1 guy who that phrase could have been reserved for was Price. You trade the hero in the summer, the guy is booed on the 1st preseason game....THAT would have been a reason to fold and not succeed here. But everyone else....they could have done it with a little more patience, little more vision, confidence and icetime. At one point, I'm starting to wonder what the heck is Timmins still doing in our organization. I mean, at one point, if you need his input to go after guys like Greg Pateryn, Michael Bournival or Lars Eller, you surely need his input to know if he still believes in SKost and Grabs....And when Timmins made his comment to a journalist who said to him how Grabovski was finally a good player, his response makes me believe how he dissaproved the move....
I'm a Detroit fan, so it's safe to say I'm coming in peace.
I'm just curious about the WHOLE Grabovski saga. I have a friend who is a HUGE Habs fan, I mean, absolutely huge. Watches all the games on RDS and we're in Edmonton... Soo, yeah.
I asked him about why Gainey was foolish enough to trade Grabovski, who was considered one of your best prospects, for a bag of pucks and a second rounder. I know that the Kostitsyns didn't like him, or so I've read. However, it seems that over the years that this was the wrong choice to make. One of the brothers is somewhere out there, and the other one isn't producing like he should.
Anyways, with that being said: Why do many fans hate Grabovski? My friend said he refused to play in a system and he was a locker room cancer. Yet, when I look at Grabovski in Toronto he seems to be the exact opposite of what my friend says.
He plays with heart, he plays heart, he makes plays, he doesn't ever giveup. This guy is going to be a stud ppg 2 way player, and I am so shocked you guys cheered the move when Gainey made it.
Can someone please explain?
Thanks in advance
He's not a top 6 forward on a contender. I think we got good return for a guy of his calibre. People are panicking this year because he is having a career year.
He's not a top 6 forward on a contender. I think we got good return for a guy of his calibre. People are panicking this year because he is having a career year.
He would not have been able to be a 2nd C in Chicago last year? Or in Detroit in 07-08? He couldn't be Andy McDonald in Anaheim? And that's just talking about the actual winners...we all know you don't have to be the only and actual cup winner to be called a contender...
Sorry but while nobody knows how he'll react, my opinion is that he has just as much talent than a whole lot of 2nd Centerman in the league, that he has the talent AND the desire to do well. He might not have the perfect defensive play that a superstar 1st C might have but yet again....people who still think that this guy is awful defensively, are probably the same ones who think Subban is awful defensively....a little update would be necessary....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CareyClutch
The deal that give us 1 week to talk with him
Everybody knew before that he never had any intention of coming. And yet, the idea is that Philly did that kind of deal and gave up a 1st rounders for the players they talked to...Difference? They signed the guys they talked to. Though Nashville ended up with Jonathan Blum who will be a good d-man in this league, chances are Grabovski ends up with the same type of 1st rounder-2nd rounder talent. End-result as to count at some point. A for effort doesn't always cut it. It's better than not doing anything, I know...yet, results are needed.
Grabovski was still young. There was no need to rush him in a top 6 role. At this point, who cares if we happen to have 3 offensive lines...how about making it our real identity?
You know my take on certain asset management. Just wanted to point out, Grabo himself wanted that top6 role and I believe the reason management moved him is because he threw that fit when he didn't get those high top 6 minutes.
What I don't like from management is their lack to work with ''troubled'' players.
I mean, as soon as we hear a player having problems, moving seem to be the only solution. Price and PK are about the only exception, but that's because they are of superstar caliber. For more average-good players, they opt for trades, SK-Grabo-Ribs-Lats-etc..take your pick.
It's too bad, because the guys with attitude, once they're on your side, will battle extremely hard and hold important roles.
Whitesnake, what were your thoughts about the trade at the time of the transaction?
I trust you will be honest.
Everybody knows that I hated the trade 'cause I felt he didn't have his chance. Same with SKost. I didn't mind the D'Agostini trade 'cause we were getting a guy I liked very much when he was playing in Michigan in Palushaj. But I will ALWAYS hate to see a young player get traded when I feel he didn't get a real chance to shine. And Grabovski clearly didn't. Surely, I felt he lack strength and all but you saw the pure and real talent. You saw him not backing from a check or anything like that. I hated his plane episode but still believed it could have been prevented. And if not, I still believe it could been worked out differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E
You know my take on certain asset management. Just wanted to point out, Grabo himself wanted that top6 role and I believe the reason management moved him is because he threw that fit when he didn't get those high top 6 minutes.
What I don't like from management is their lack to work with ''troubled'' players.
I mean, as soon as we hear a player having problems, moving seem to be the only solution. Price and PK are about the only exception, but that's because they are of superstar caliber. For more average-good players, they opt for trades, SK-Grabo-Ribs-Lats-etc..take your pick.
It's too bad, because the guys with attitude, once they're on your side, will battle extremely hard and hold important roles.
And you also my take about that. As far as Grabs is concerned, well in his 1st year, he wasn't playing much and ended up with 9 points in 24 games. But look at his icetime during that stint: The more he played during 1 game was 14 minutes...ended up with 1 goal and 1 assist. Most of the games he played 10-11 minutes...that's borderline 3rd-4th line type of minutes with the Habs. At the time we all agreed that Saku had to see his icetime cut out a bit. And as we see right now, a guy like Desharnais ended up playing about 19 minutes. Gomez sucks and plays 18 minutes. Kostitsyn sucks more and plays 13 minutes. You had a Grabovski with tons of speed and desire who was playing less. And ended up with the stats he did. Put together a strong 3rd line and plays them 14-15 minutes.....that would have responded to the desire he wanted. Play him on the PP at one point from time to time. Talk to him, make him understand how you see and value his progression...No instead of that, from Gainey, to Carbo, to Martin, everytime we talk to an ex-player, they keep mentioning how they were never in contact with the coach.....
From what I remember from the Grabo saga it's that he miss the plane because he wanted to play hockey ,he even ask Gainey to send him down to Hamilton if wasn't going to play
Man, is there anything you people don't complain about? Grabovski? Seriously...wow.
Look, there's a reason the rest of the team tried to impale him for the next two years. Attitude problems. Bigtime. He sure turned it around in Toronto, great, plenty of times it never happens.
Oh, and the trade arc was the following:
Grabovski and a pick for Sundin's negotiating rights, only if Sundin signed
Sundin didn't sign, so Gainey traded Grabovski to TO anyway for a 2nd
That's to all the people who were crying when he left. Dime a dozen player who only decided to show up at home. Players like that need to give 110% every game and not feel entitled like Maxim did.
