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Flyers’ Meszaros Quietly Having Banner Year

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01-10-2011, 11:53 AM
  #226
DenverBoone
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Not sure what you're watching. He's been noticeably worse by an alarming margin.
No he really hasn't. he makes his fair share of boneheaded plays, but he is an excellent passer overall and plays within himself, and contributes to even strength scoring. Everybody is on love with the big, physical defensemen (a la Coburn), but there is no need to constantly **** on Carle here. BC is right, his defensive play has improved measurably since he was paired with Pronger.

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01-10-2011, 11:56 AM
  #227
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No he really hasn't. he makes his fair share of boneheaded plays, but he is an excellent passer overall and plays within himself, and contributes to even strength scoring. Everybody is on love with the big, physical defensemen (a la Coburn), but there is no need to constantly **** on Carle here. BC is right, his defensive play has improved measurably since he was paired with Pronger.
Where is this Coburn love all over the place?

Both of 'em receive pretty regular criticism (deservedly so).

As for being paired with Pronger... anybody's defensive play would improve "measurably" whilst paired with Pronger.

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01-10-2011, 12:18 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Where is this Coburn love all over the place?

Both of 'em receive pretty regular criticism (deservedly so).

As for being paired with Pronger... anybody's defensive play would improve "measurably" whilst paired with Pronger.
Ya, Coburn gets his share of hate, but when it comes to nut cutting, it appears that everybody's choice to be moved is Carle, not Coburn, presumably under the guise of his potential as a "big, fast, physical defensemen." This is disturbing to me knowing Coburn is having a substandard year, while Carle is playing against better QUALCOMP (I believe) and is on track for 40 ES points! That's the point I am trying to make.

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01-10-2011, 12:21 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Ya, Coburn gets his share of hate, but when it comes to nut cutting, it appears that everybody's choice to be moved is Carle, not Coburn, presumably under the guise of his potential as a "big, fast, physical defensemen." This is disturbing to me knowing Coburn is having a substandard year, while Carle is playing against better QUALCOMP (I believe) and is on track for 40 ES points! That's the point I am trying to make.
Eh, I think you have to be careful there. I think a year or so ago this statement may have been true, but they've evened out considerably since then in the consensus view. I don't think the loss of either would be a particularly devastating blow if it's made in an effort to bring in another player... or create cap space to keep someone else more important.

As noted earlier in this thread, for example, I'm kind of done hoping Coburn will put it all together and be the D he has the physical tools to be.

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01-10-2011, 01:56 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, he's actively trying to keep the other team from scoring points at the expense of trying as hard to score points himself. Pretty straightforward analysis. There are a lot of D out there that put up some points by playing some crappy D. Timonen plays some great D, and that hurts his offensive production... which is exacerbated by having Coburn next to him, who really limits how much Timonen can push the puck up.



Well, but Carle is part of the equation when it comes to Meszaros and his PP production (which isn't great). And, sure, Meszaros cranks up a nice shot... but if it doesn't end up in the net, then whatever to that.
Well if Timonen's point production is hampered by baby sitting Coburn, I' assume we can agree that Mez's point production is also hampered by baby sitting Carle's defensive short comings.

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01-10-2011, 02:07 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Well if Timonen's point production is hampered by baby sitting Coburn, I' assume we can agree that Mez's point production is also hampered by baby sitting Carle's defensive short comings.
on the PP?

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01-10-2011, 02:32 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
on the PP?
Where can one find the GAON and other similar stats? I see you quoting these from time to time

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01-10-2011, 02:38 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
Where can one find the GAON and other similar stats? I see you quoting these from time to time
Behindthenet.ca

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01-10-2011, 02:38 PM
  #234
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behindthenet.ca is where jester gets them from I believe

I dont get how JVR's QUALCOMP is so low when Richards' and Carter's are so high and he has played with one of them most of the year

Quote:
Ya, Coburn gets his share of hate, but when it comes to nut cutting, it appears that everybody's choice to be moved is Carle, not Coburn, presumably under the guise of his potential as a "big, fast, physical defensemen." This is disturbing to me knowing Coburn is having a substandard year, while Carle is playing against better QUALCOMP (I believe) and is on track for 40 ES points! That's the point I am trying to make.
Carle has lower QualComp than Timonen, Coburn and Pronger , but besides Timonen, the other 3 are quite close. Carle also has higher GAON/60 than any other D man on our team. Howver his GFON/60 is huge at 3.90, he is having a great year offensively. Weirdly enough Mez has a big GFON/60 as well, even though he has less points

Timonen +0.024


Coburn +0.008
Pronger + 0.003
Carle -0.003


Mez -0.043


OD -0.063


Last edited by HoverCarle*: 01-10-2011 at 02:49 PM.
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01-10-2011, 02:41 PM
  #235
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Thanks

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01-10-2011, 03:36 PM
  #236
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Is GF/ON just even strength or all situations?

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01-10-2011, 04:47 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Is GF/ON just even strength or all situations?
I say ES, just because Carle isn't getting any PP points this year. (Probably because we can't score on the PP)

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01-10-2011, 05:09 PM
  #238
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Meszaros is 55th out of 197 defenseman in QualComp. Nik Lidstrom is first by a huge margin. Not surprising given the strength of his division and conference. But he's still doing the heavy lifting in Detroit and having great success.

Given that he has the toughest competition and still has 39 points in 42 games, he has to be the leading contender for the Norris.

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01-10-2011, 05:37 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverBoone View Post
No he really hasn't. he makes his fair share of boneheaded plays, but he is an excellent passer overall and plays within himself, and contributes to even strength scoring. Everybody is on love with the big, physical defensemen (a la Coburn), but there is no need to constantly **** on Carle here. BC is right, his defensive play has improved measurably since he was paired with Pronger.
I'm not crapping on him when I'm simply pointing out the truth. One could make the argument this season that Carle-Pronger has been our worst pairing.

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01-10-2011, 07:55 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
behindthenet.ca is where jester gets them from I believe

I dont get how JVR's QUALCOMP is so low when Richards' and Carter's are so high and he has played with one of them most of the year



Carle has lower QualComp than Timonen, Coburn and Pronger , but besides Timonen, the other 3 are quite close. Carle also has higher GAON/60 than any other D man on our team. Howver his GFON/60 is huge at 3.90, he is having a great year offensively. Weirdly enough Mez has a big GFON/60 as well, even though he has less points

Timonen +0.024


Coburn +0.008
Pronger + 0.003
Carle -0.003


Mez -0.043


OD -0.063
QUALCOMP is a pretty ****** stat that will spew out a lot of randomness, I'd personally look at Corsi QUALCOMP to get a better idea of it, but the QUALCOMP stat as a whole is still a work in progress, I wouldn't put a ton of stock in it.

I really like those advanced stats, particular the GAON/GAOFF and GFON/GFOFF ones, but at the same time, you still have to use your eyes as you watch the game.

I mean, I'd say Pronger has played decently this year (not quite as good as last year), but according to a few of those advanced stats, he's really having a ****** season.

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01-10-2011, 07:57 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
Meszaros is 55th out of 197 defenseman in QualComp. Nik Lidstrom is first by a huge margin. Not surprising given the strength of his division and conference. But he's still doing the heavy lifting in Detroit and having great success.

Given that he has the toughest competition and still has 39 points in 42 games, he has to be the leading contender for the Norris.
It's actually criminal that he wasn't in the top-3 last year, people just looked at his points, but if you look at the advanced stats, I believe Detroit was well below 2 ES goals per 60 when he was off the ice as opposed to right around 3 when he was on.

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01-10-2011, 11:33 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
on the PP?
Sure. I mean that is the one of the only times they are paired together. Considering Carle has produced nothing on the PP, and you can see how man times he fumbles the puck leading to breakaways/oddman rushes.

Mez's production is a valid criticism. I just don't find it that troublesome at this point. Even if he is overpaid, how much would you say he is overpaid? Would it make any difference to roster if he was getting paid 500-700k less?

Is the criticism with Mez or is it that you rather have spent his money on a goalie? Which should be an independent thing when valuing him.

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01-11-2011, 05:41 AM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
QUALCOMP is a pretty ****** stat that will spew out a lot of randomness, I'd personally look at Corsi QUALCOMP to get a better idea of it, but the QUALCOMP stat as a whole is still a work in progress, I wouldn't put a ton of stock in it.

I really like those advanced stats, particular the GAON/GAOFF and GFON/GFOFF ones, but at the same time, you still have to use your eyes as you watch the game.

I mean, I'd say Pronger has played decently this year (not quite as good as last year), but according to a few of those advanced stats, he's really having a ****** season.
Yeah Pronger had a rough first few games, but he and Kimo have been pretty great again this year.

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01-11-2011, 06:36 AM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
QUALCOMP is a pretty ****** stat that will spew out a lot of randomness, I'd personally look at Corsi QUALCOMP to get a better idea of it, but the QUALCOMP stat as a whole is still a work in progress, I wouldn't put a ton of stock in it.

I really like those advanced stats, particular the GAON/GAOFF and GFON/GFOFF ones, but at the same time, you still have to use your eyes as you watch the game.

I mean, I'd say Pronger has played decently this year (not quite as good as last year), but according to a few of those advanced stats, he's really having a ****** season.
It spews out randomness until around this point in the season. Once a player has 30+ games under his belt it starts getting useful. Any metric will be more useful with a larger sample size but that is especially true of anything that uses Plus-Minus. There is a huge difference in the value of QualComp between 20 games in and 80 games in.

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01-11-2011, 09:08 PM
  #245
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I've argued that Mesz has been one of our best Dmen so far this year. Am I way off base? What's the general consensus? Is it crazy to mention all star consideration?

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01-11-2011, 09:13 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
I've argued that Mesz has been one of our best Dmen so far this year. Am I way off base? What's the general consensus? Is it crazy to mention all star consideration?
I would rank them:
1.Timo
2.Pronger
3.Mez
4. Coburn/Carle
5.OD (not that hes been bad, he just is what he is)

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01-11-2011, 09:16 PM
  #247
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In any Flyers' game I've watched this year, Meszaros has always stood out in a positive way. He seems to have really found his game in Philly and it's nice to see. The guy is still only 25 years old and still may not have reached his full potential yet. What a steal.

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01-11-2011, 09:48 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healthyscratch View Post
I've argued that Mesz has been one of our best Dmen so far this year. Am I way off base? What's the general consensus? Is it crazy to mention all star consideration?
To beat a dead horse: Mes doesn't play against the quality competition that the others do. In addition, he hasn't been very effective on the PP (not that the others have been much better.) Yes, he's had more responsibility since Pronger got hurt but Kimmo still does the heavy lifting.

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01-11-2011, 09:53 PM
  #249
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Timonen has been superhuman really

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01-11-2011, 10:02 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
To beat a dead horse: Mes doesn't play against the quality competition that the others do. In addition, he hasn't been very effective on the PP (not that the others have been much better.) Yes, he's had more responsibility since Pronger got hurt but Kimmo still does the heavy lifting.
Sorry to make you repeat yourself, just looking for some conversation.

But to counter your point, if Mesz is averaging 20+ minutes a night, is he really only playing against the 3rd and 4th line of the opposition? Seems like they continuously roll all 3 d units regardless of what the other team has on the ice.

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