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Flyers’ Meszaros Quietly Having Banner Year

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Old
01-07-2011, 08:57 PM
  #126
MountainHawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
I agree but you can get a quality goalie for 4-5M. And the difference between Bryz and MFL cannot be overstated.
You have to sign a backup too. I don't think it's worth going past $3M, maybe $3.25M for a starter.

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01-07-2011, 09:00 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Didn't he sign that right after the Cup win?
Nope, it was the off-season before.

This was from 7/3/08:

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=242381


Quote:
A day after signing core players Evgeni Malkin and Brooks Orpik to long term deals, the Pittsburgh Penguins took care of their goaltender on Thursday.

Marc-Andre Fleury has signed a seven year, $35 million extension with the club and the deal includes a no-move and limited no-trade clause that triggers in 2010-2011.

...

Fleury was scheduled to become a restricted free agent on July 1, but the Penguins offered him salary arbitration in June to effectively keep hm off the market.

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01-07-2011, 09:02 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Worked out ok for Chicago as well.
Barely. Niemi would have cost that team the Cup if the Flyers had received moderately OK goaltending on the other side of the ledger.

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And damn, forgot about Anaheim, but that was the first year after the cap, so I think it was a little different because no one was really cap optimized yet.

I think we'll see goaltenders salaries retreat until it's worth signing the top guys, but using more than 6-8% on the position is a total waste.
Depends... the top group of 5 or so guys that really separate themselves from the pact, are always going to come at a premium. What folks are figuring out, is that you don't need to overspend if you're getting the 2nd tier (perfectly valid critique of the market for goalies). However, the economics and the importance of play.... big difference.

If you don't have one of those guys that are stable and reliable, you have a big problem that will almost certainly pop up for you at some point: as we witnessed in the Cup Finals when both guys played like dog poop.

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01-07-2011, 09:02 PM
  #129
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Flyers are paying, what $3M for G this year. They have a 91.3% save percentage. #2 in the NHL is Florida at 92.2%. So, is it really worth taking $3-4M out of the depth in D or F to give up 1 goal less every 4-5 games?

(Boston is #1 at 93.7% ... not sure that will prove sustainable, so used #2).

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01-07-2011, 09:05 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Flyers are paying, what $3M for G this year. They have a 91.3% save percentage. #2 in the NHL is Florida at 92.2%. So, is it really worth taking $3-4M out of the depth in D or F to give up 1 goal less every 4-5 games?

(Boston is #1 at 93.7% ... not sure that will prove sustainable, so used #2).
Whose to say our .913 is sustainable? That .913 has been falling for a month or so now.

Assuming you get the stud G, he makes the weaker D better... he makes the weaker forwards... better. Improve the play in goal, and it improves every player on your roster across the board. Now, the return is subtle... and not necessarily there if you're talking about the second tier of guys.

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01-07-2011, 09:05 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
How many teams have the luxury of skimping on depth...
Um, no. The question was asked. An answer was given. MountainHawk didn't ask who else was on the team, he told us to let him know when a team with a big-money goalie in the cap world wins, which fits the bill for MA Fleury. You can discredit the Penguins success that season all you want - it doesn't change the facts.

BTW, I can't find Giguere's numbers coming out of the lockout, but the Ducks Cup Season was the last year of a 4-year contract for him, and his current contract was signed after that season. It wasn't $6M on the cap, but I'm sure it wasn't peanuts either.


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01-07-2011, 09:08 PM
  #132
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Yeah, but the Penguins are the rare case where it might work, because, like I said, they basically get Crosby's production at a significant discount due to the individual cap.

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01-07-2011, 09:10 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Um, no. The question was asked. An answer was given.
Fair enough. I really don't care.

My argument is that you don't need to have elite goaltending to win a championship and that paying a goaltender excessive sums of money is counterproductive to building a championship team regardless of whether a team has been able to accomplish that feet.

Having a deep defense allows the Flyers to have their cake and eat it too. They get the production of good goaltending and all the benefits of a deep defense.

It has it's flaws though as we've seen. If the Flyers go up against a team as deep as them, the goaltending flaws become more evident in a lengthy series. Of course we now have a competent 3rd pairing and I like to believe Bobrovsky/Boucher is better than Boucher/Leighton.

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01-07-2011, 09:27 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Yeah, but the Penguins are the rare case where it might work, because, like I said, they basically get Crosby's production at a significant discount due to the individual cap.
Well yeah, but they also had the other guys who made it work. Part of the reason that Crosby was so productive was because guys like Pascal Dupuis were making it work. Any Cup winner is going to have to have production at a discount to their cap. Crosby could have asked for the moon from the Penguins, and probably would have gotten it, I don't recall him getting the max cap hit at the time. Part of it is always going to be getting more for less. The Flyers got it from Leino last year, as did the Blackhawks from like half of their team.

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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Fair enough. I really don't care.

My argument is that you don't need to have elite goaltending to win a championship and that paying a goaltender excessive sums of money is counterproductive to building a championship team regardless of whether a team has been able to accomplish that feet.

Having a deep defense allows the Flyers to have their cake and eat it too. They get the production of good goaltending and all the benefits of a deep defense.

It has it's flaws though as we've seen. If the Flyers go up against a team as deep as them, the goaltending flaws become more evident in a lengthy series. Of course we now have a competent 3rd pairing and I like to believe Bobrovsky/Boucher is better than Boucher/Leighton.
I don't think anyone disagrees that it's possible to do so without a big-money goaltender, but it's been proven that it's not impossible to do so, it's just a good idea to do it before they all are due their paydays.

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01-07-2011, 10:29 PM
  #135
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It seems that posters are coming up with several examples disproving MH's and Shafer's points and each time, the response is, "well, that's a special situation." After a few of those excuses, the argument doesn't really hold water anymore.

I agree that you don't necessarily need to spend a ton on a goalie to win a Cup. But we aren't winning jack with Boosh and that's what counts ultimately and I think everybody can agree on that.

Of course, Shafer defended Leighton all of last season and then promptly flipped colors when he blew the SCF, so who knows?

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01-07-2011, 10:42 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
It seems that posters are coming up with several examples disproving MH's and Shafer's points and each time, the response is, "well, that's a special situation." After a few of those excuses, the argument doesn't really hold water anymore.

I agree that you don't necessarily need to spend a ton on a goalie to win a Cup. But we aren't winning jack with Boosh and that's what counts ultimately and I think everybody can agree on that.

Of course, Shafer defended Leighton all of last season and then promptly flipped colors when he blew the SCF, so who knows?
Mod: deleted.

The only things I have said about goaltending is that you don't need elite goaltending to win a cup, that it is more effective to focus on depth instead of goaltending, and that good teams will make their goaltenders appear, based on numbers, better than they are.

Why don't you tell me which one has been proven wrong in this thread?

While you're at it, I'd appreciate you telling me just how I was ever on Leighton's bandwagon. I've said all along that he sucks, but the Flyers could win with him regardless. I said I wasn't overly worried about goaltending because whoever was in net would put up good numbers anyway.

Mod: deleted.


Last edited by Fugu: 01-08-2011 at 09:33 AM. Reason: ...
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01-07-2011, 10:50 PM
  #137
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Anyway, this has gotten insanely off-topic, and there really is no point to this debate.

Meszaros is playing well. Whether or not we agree on his value compared to his contract will be determined when and if he ever becomes a long-term anchor for the top two pairings. Fair enough?

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01-07-2011, 11:29 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Anyway, this has gotten insanely off-topic, and there really is no point to this debate.

Meszaros is playing well. Whether or not we agree on his value compared to his contract will be determined when and if he ever becomes a long-term anchor for the top two pairings. Fair enough?
The point is that the original article was ********. The writer had no clue what the hell he was talking about. He's heavily protected and raking the benefits of three scoring lines (which he can't even seem to leech secondary assists off of.)

As for his value, let's compare it to what he's actually doing and has done in the past. He'd have to do quite a lot in the future to make up for the lost cap space that he's cost several teams now.

He was asked to be the man in Tampa, he couldn't hack it.

He looks good next to Chara. He looks good on his own against poor quality competition. I'm sure he'd look very good next to Kimmo or Pronger, as well.

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01-07-2011, 11:47 PM
  #139
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OMG - Shafer - how do you keep this up? Your point is so obvious yet everyone ignores it over and over and just keeps saying Meszaros is a bottom pair d-man at 4 million. Just give up - most of us get it, he was a good pickup doing a great job and is making his money this year. End of story.

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01-07-2011, 11:57 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The point is that the original article was ********. The writer had no clue what the hell he was talking about. He's heavily protected and raking the benefits of three scoring lines (which he can't even seem to leech secondary assists off of.)
I have no interest in slandering the writer, and I haven't read the article, but I completely agree. He's been well protected and sheltered, something we knew he'd be when we acquired him.

I certainly concede that point as the truth, but he hasn't been entirely sheltered and entirely protected. There have been times this season where he anchored a pairing including O'donnell that played the most minutes of any pairing on the Flyers. Granted, those times were against lesser teams or in cases of early developing blowouts, but it still shows some level of competency in handling both situations with stronger opponents (again though against lesser teams and/or in specific scenarios) as well as eating up big minutes in every situation; two things that are absolutely vital to a defenseman in the NHL.

While I'm not trying to fully claim that those people ragging on Meszaros are unjustified with their claims, because they certainly have some valid points, but going to the extent as to almost claim him overpaid and unworthy of any kind of recognition is a little far-fetched (again though I will say that not everyone in this thread has claimed that -- I'm only going based on what I've read, not necessarily matching it to a specific handle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
As for his value, let's compare it to what he's actually doing and has done in the past. He'd have to do quite a lot in the future to make up for the lost cap space that he's cost several teams now.
Well, in terms of lost cap space, he's only really cost Tampa. That's why they traded him. He was an RFA when they acquired him, and he received his first major contract from the Lightning organization.

I will also point out that we were involved in the discussions to acquire him if I remember correctly, but we backed out because the return for him was a little too rich for our liking.

Another thing that I would like to point is that at the time Meszaros was highly sought after meaning that in any scenario of us acquiring him when he was on the block from Ottawa would have likely resulted in a similar contract to the one he has now.

Whether or not he earned that contract I will get into a bit below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
He was asked to be the man in Tampa, he couldn't hack it.
Agreed. He was asked to be the man in Tampa as a 23-year-old two-way defenseman who had spent his young career in the very large shadow of one Zdeno Chara.

While he certainly didn't hack it in Tampa, there are some things you need to consider. I'm not saying this factors absolve him from some crime of "not hacking it," but they may shed a little more light into the situation that not many of these people attacking Meszaros' cap hit would understand.

-He was 22 being asked to step out of his comfort zone and lead a struggling defense. Making it as a young NHL defenseman is very hard, but it is even harder to do at a young age with no support.
-The organization was in shambles. At this point they not only had a front office nightmare, but there was an ownership issue that I don't remember all the details about as well as an extremely poor on-ice product. It's not the most thrilling scenario for a 22-year-old defenseman to find himself.
-Many people do forget that he was also battling some injury issues.
-The coaching in Tampa was and still is atrocious as far as the blueline is concerned. People preach about Meszaros being "part of the problem," but those people are foolish Tampa fans who couldn't tell you what good defense was if it slapped them in the face. There team is easily one of the worst defensively in the NHL to this very day. Expecting Meszaros to fix an issue that huge throw the turmoil of a poorly run organization and even worse coaching is like expecting an your dog to stand up on its hind legs, lift your car, and toss it a good 20 feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
He looks good next to Chara. He looks good on his own against poor quality competition. I'm sure he'd look very good next to Kimmo or Pronger, as well.
All good defensemen will look good in favorable situations.

Is Meszaros there to the point where he could be a top pairing defenseman? No he is not ready. I don't think anyone here is saying he is. I did not read the article, so I don't know if the writer intended it to sound that way.

What we do have is a 25-year-old defenseman excelling in different scenarios right now. What we hope is that as he develops, since defensemen certainly do take longer to develop than other skaters, he learns well from the team, organization, and veterans on the blueline around him so that maybe sometime in the upcoming future he is able to replace Pronger and Timonen as the age and/or their contracts expire.

That is all. There's nothing more to it than that, so I'm not quite sure why everyone is so up in arms about his contract. Holmgren made a decision, one that seems to be paying off very well; one that could be a huge steal in the next couple of years, and the brigade of hate-spewing "champions of truth and justice" are in this thread making sure that the rest of us are all well aware of just how little Meszaros has proven and just how much his contract is costing us. Seriously, if some of these people could see themselves from outside of their own perspectives, they'd see just how annoying that is.

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01-08-2011, 02:31 AM
  #141
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I said from day 1 it was a great trade. I live in Ottawa and watched Meszaros play for 3 years. You don't forget how to play at his age, anyone could see that Tampa was a terrible D unit with a terrible goalie. That is why you pay good money for pro-scouting. It is also why I have a hard time believing New York gave Redden that contract. Anyone living in or around Ottawa knew Redden was worth "nothing" and somehow Sather gave him a raise for long term. Crazy.

Great job of grabing a very good player from a bad team. And now that he is playing on the top 2 we don't have to listen to everyone goign on and on about him not playing against the best. He is top 2 now and he is the horse on that top 2. Love it.
The guy is just playing really good solid D. Well done Homer

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01-08-2011, 03:59 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Valhoun View Post
The point is that the original article was ********. The writer had no clue what the hell he was talking about. He's heavily protected and raking the benefits of three scoring lines (which he can't even seem to leech secondary assists off of.)
Let's not pretend the other d-men do. Timonen has only 3 points more (with more time on the PP, I'm guessing). Meszaros probably spends more time with the 4th line than the top 4, also.

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01-08-2011, 04:28 AM
  #143
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Is he an expensive 3rd liner? Absolutely. I don't think anyone is trying to argue that. I'd simply put it that his current play is making his 4m hit much less noticeable. To quote nevermore from the first devils GDT...

Quote:
Btw, since Pronger went down Meszaros has been a + player in every game save the 0-5 against Florida (-2).
He's been a - player in 4 games this season. Pretty ridiculous.
And during this time, he's either been on the second, or first defensive pairing with Carle. (Admittedly, I'm not sure who's been our first pairing since Pronger went out. I just know OD and Bart have been the third.)

That's fantastic any way you look at it. And really, anything that stops me from grinding my teeth and having a nervous breakdown any time our third defensive pairing is on the ice is great. To me at least.

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01-08-2011, 08:07 AM
  #144
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Wow.
Mod: deleted. And you most definitely took that Leighton position, I literally have PMs that I'm staring at from May and June about it.

I mean, MountainHawk, I like you a lot as a poster, but when this guy is the only one agreeing with you......

From last February 17....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer
All this is, is further proof that the team makes the goalie exponentially more than the goalie makes the team.

I've been criticized before for calling most NHL goaltenders dime-a-dozen, and this is the proof.


Throwing out any kind of major expense on a goalie at the deadline would be foolish. I'd like to go after Vokoun since he is significantly better, but if you think even Vokoun is going to do something like 1.50 GAA and 0.940 SV% in Philly, you should probably think again. Leighton has a 2.19 GAA and a 0.920 SV% last time I checked. It's VERY hard to improve on those kind of numbers for any goalie the closer they are to a 2.00/0.925.

Price or Halak outside of a draft pick, prospect, or a defenseman that we don't necessarily need would be dumb.

Going after Turco would be dumb.

I'd say make a play on Vokoun and see if we can get Hartnell to waive his NTC to make it happen. If not then either hope Emery gets healthy or make a play on Biron.

That's it.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=103


That literally took me 3 minutes of searching.


Last edited by Fugu: 01-08-2011 at 09:29 AM. Reason: ...
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01-08-2011, 08:18 AM
  #145
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i walked in to a ****storm on this thread. jesus. and to think i was startin to like meszaros. now i think he's a **** bag.

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01-08-2011, 08:19 AM
  #146
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Wow.

And you most definitely took that Leighton position, I literally have PMs that I'm staring at from May and June about it.
Mod: deleted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=103

That literally took me 3 minutes of searching.
Except nowhere in there do I say Leighton is a good goalie.

In fact, in that post, I blatantly say that Leighton is a product of his situation as most goalies are.


Last edited by Fugu: 01-08-2011 at 09:30 AM. Reason: flaming
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01-08-2011, 09:26 AM
  #147
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When you traded for a guy who HAS looked horrendously the past two seasons, and makes 4 mil, you are going to get more people who didnt like the trade then like. Most of the people who liked the trade, based it off of his time with the Sens (not saying you do but most did)

Watching him in Tampa, he wasnt very good. He was though looked at as their top defender, so the pressure got towards him. Not surprisingly, playing on the 3rd pairing he looks fine. I dont think, say if Timonen and Pronger went down and we fully focused on Meszaros as our top defender, that he would do as well as he is doing now.
He wasn't good in Tampa largely because of two serious injuries (shoulder and puck in the face).

I always liked him in Ottawa, and I thought it was a brilliant acquisition by Homer.

At his price, he's better than all the guys in his range, including a couple they were after (Hamhuis and Michalek specifically) as well as Volchenkov.

And if Pronger and Timonen go down, we STILL have a credible D. No other team in the league can lose their top 2 Dmen and still thrive. No one. We'll see how Montreal does without Markov and Gorges- they have to make a deal.

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01-08-2011, 10:06 AM
  #148
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BTW, since Giguere was in the discussion, just for the record he earned $3.99M in the year he won the cup:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Giguere,+Ducks+sign+4-year,+$24M+deal-a01611366321

$4M doesn't seem like much now, but that was, what, a $41M cap or something? Probably about the same effect as when Fleury won the Cup 2 years later at a million more? And the Ducks were a pretty balanced team.

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01-08-2011, 10:16 AM
  #149
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I think Mez is definitely better than Carle at everything but passing, and he is probably better than Coburn at everything but Skating. Picking up 4 mil in a struggling player was a risky move, but it has paid off so far.

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01-08-2011, 10:30 AM
  #150
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I hate Meszaros' price tag, and I think he's had a very easy season playing sheltered minutes. That said, he's a big boy who plays tough, and supports the attack in the offensive zone just as well as Coburn and Carle. If I'm moving salary to accommodate Carter, Giroux, Leino, Powe, and Nodl, I'm moving Carle.

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