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Flyers’ Meszaros Quietly Having Banner Year

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01-09-2011, 11:00 AM
  #176
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I dont see coburn or carle getting much better if at all. This high ceiling people talk about may have already been reached. Tired of hearing they still have top pairing potential (they dont imo) and the like. IMO they are what you see and will probably stay that way. That isnt bad (as it could be worse) thing but it is clear they need someone to anchor their pairing as they are not capable of doing it on their own. They will never be that go to guy and be more of a complimentary player. That being said do you need to pay them what they make when your pairing them with pronger and kimmo? Would 2 other complimentary guys who make less fill that role just as well?

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01-09-2011, 11:08 AM
  #177
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I dont see coburn or carle getting much better if at all. This high ceiling people talk about may have already been reached. Tired of hearing they still have top pairing potential (they dont imo) and the like. IMO they are what you see and will probably stay that way. That isnt bad (as it could be worse) thing but it is clear they need someone to anchor their pairing as they are not capable of doing it on their own. They will never be that go to guy and be more of a complimentary player. That being said do you need to pay them what they make when your pairing them with pronger and kimmo? Would 2 other complimentary guys who make less fill that role just as well?
Not sure on Carle, but you could probably get a bit more stability on defense. Carle is on pace for a 40 point year right now... with ZERO PP points. That's rather remarkable for a D (and gets back to the absurdity of Shafer claiming that our lineup is littered with guys having "mediocre" seasons). If Carle was getting his 14 PP points from last year on top of that, we'd be looking at a 50 point season.

Carle has notable flaws in his game defensively, but he most certainly has offensive skills... and when he's getting it done on the PP, he's an excellent 2nd unit QB option. Unfortunately to this point this year he and Meszaros just haven't been creating anything across the top of the 2nd unit. I don't know if that's a lack of chemistry between the two (Mez seems to just be good for the one-timer on the PP).

Coburn... loved him when he first got here due to the physical tools, but I see very little improvement in his game. His offensive game has clearly regressed, and his defensive game remains the problematic mix of periods where he asserts himself physical and times when he plays more passive physically.

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01-09-2011, 11:16 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not sure on Carle, but you could probably get a bit more stability on defense. Carle is on pace for a 40 point year right now... with ZERO PP points. That's rather remarkable for a D (and gets back to the absurdity of Shafer claiming that our lineup is littered with guys having "mediocre" seasons). If Carle was getting his 14 PP points from last year on top of that, we'd be looking at a 50 point season.

Carle has notable flaws in his game defensively, but he most certainly has offensive skills... and when he's getting it done on the PP, he's an excellent 2nd unit QB option. Unfortunately to this point this year he and Meszaros just haven't been creating anything across the top of the 2nd unit. I don't know if that's a lack of chemistry between the two (Mez seems to just be good for the one-timer on the PP).

Coburn... loved him when he first got here due to the physical tools, but I see very little improvement in his game. His offensive game has clearly regressed, and his defensive game remains the problematic mix of periods where he asserts himself physical and times when he plays more passive physically.
The thing with carle offensively to me is at the end of the year he has 30 something points. Yet they are an undistinguished 30 points, if that makes sense. I dont see a lot of his points coming directly from his play and maybe i am wrong. He leaves me wanting more offensively. His d will never be great and i can except that if he was putting up more points or just better overall offensively. Yeah the pp lack of points is odd. The one thing i hate about the flyers d is you rarely see them come down the slot and shoot, either on the pp or not. they dont seem to jump into the play. I cant think of a team whose d that doe sit less then the flyers, though i would think there are some.

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01-09-2011, 11:18 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Coburn... loved him when he first got here due to the physical tools, but I see very little improvement in his game. His offensive game has clearly regressed, and his defensive game remains the problematic mix of periods where he asserts himself physical and times when he plays more passive physically.
Coburn needs to go. At this point, he's been in the league long enough now that he knows what he needs to do night in and night out in order to be successful. Instead, he coasts and as you mentioned, he's still prone to bad decisions that most first year players make. At some point, the Flyers need to cut bait with Coburn. Let someone else be enamored with the "potential" that he brings.

As for Carle, he was never the greatest defensively. Even in college, he was always noted for his offensive game more than his defensive game. However, the man has legitimate chemistry with Pronger. I know everyone says "well, it's Pronger covering up for Carle's mistakes", but Carle takes his role seriously and the one thing we can all agree on is that Carle's game and confidence has improved immensely since being partnered with Pronger. Even with Pronger out of the lineup, there is a much noticeable difference in Carle's game in that he's actually quite adequate without Pronger. Not great, but definitely adequate.

Coburn on the other hand, is just a 6'5 question mark. Braydon really has become the new Chris Therien in Philadelphia.

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01-09-2011, 11:18 AM
  #180
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last year Carle had like 14 points in October and still only got 35 points. He is streaky

With Coburn, his A game is just so good that I always want to keep him around. When he is being physical he can be a force on D, and still has good enough skills to move the puck up the ice. His problem is he is never consistently at that peak. He regular season play last year was bad, but he did cut his PIMS down by half which is huge. Before that he would often panic and take a penalty rather than playing D.

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01-09-2011, 11:20 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Coburn needs to go. At this point, he's been in the league long enough now that he knows what he needs to do night in and night out in order to be successful. Instead, he coasts and as you mentioned, he's still prone to bad decisions that most first year players make. At some point, the Flyers need to cut bait with Coburn. Let someone else be enamored with the "potential" that he brings.

As for Carle, he was never the greatest defensively. Even in college, he was always noted for his offensive game more than his defensive game. However, the man has legitimate chemistry with Pronger. I know everyone says "well, it's Pronger covering up for Carle's mistakes", but Carle takes his role seriously and the one thing we can all agree on is that Carle's game and confidence has improved immensely since being partnered with Pronger. Even with Pronger out of the lineup, there is a much noticeable difference in Carle's game in that he's actually quite adequate without Pronger. Not great, but definitely adequate.

Coburn on the other hand, is just a 6'5 question mark. Braydon really has become the new Chris Therien in Philadelphia.
what does that mean? Therian was a very solid dman for all but his last year and half here. Therian gets such a bad rap it makes me laugh.

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01-09-2011, 11:21 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
As for Carle, he was never the greatest defensively. Even in college, he was always noted for his offensive game more than his defensive game. However, the man has legitimate chemistry with Pronger. I know everyone says "well, it's Pronger covering up for Carle's mistakes", but Carle takes his role seriously and the one thing we can all agree on is that Carle's game and confidence has improved immensely since being partnered with Pronger. Even with Pronger out of the lineup, there is a much noticeable difference in Carle's game in that he's actually quite adequate without Pronger. Not great, but definitely adequate.
Not sure what you're watching. He's been noticeably worse by an alarming margin.

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01-09-2011, 11:21 AM
  #183
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When the team is healthy, Mes and O’Donnell have absolutely been protected from playing against opponents’ top lines. At even strength, only JVR, Betts, and Shelley have a lower quality of competition rating.

So, yes, his plus minus stat therefore looks amazing (so did OD’s for most of the season so far) but you’d never look at his offensive production and think that he was worth 4M per season.

The Flyers are a high scoring team with three scoring lines. He is protected from playing against opponents top lines (an objective fact) and therefore has an insanely good plus-minus (perhaps the most useless stat in hockey.) I don’t hate Meszaros but even a cursory glance at the real numbers show a much different player than you’ve described.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...2+13+14+15+16#
And yet the quality of competition is measured as the average relative plus minus of the opposing player. Plus minus which you decry as useless is itself used to determine this stat.

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01-09-2011, 11:23 AM
  #184
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The thing with carle offensively to me is at the end of the year he has 30 something points. Yet they are an undistinguished 30 points, if that makes sense. I dont see a lot of his points coming directly from his play and maybe i am wrong. He leaves me wanting more offensively. His d will never be great and i can except that if he was putting up more points or just better overall offensively. Yeah the pp lack of points is odd. The one thing i hate about the flyers d is you rarely see them come down the slot and shoot, either on the pp or not. they dont seem to jump into the play. I cant think of a team whose d that doe sit less then the flyers, though i would think there are some.
I think that's a bit unfair to Carle. One of the reasons for his "mistakes" with the puck is that he makes some aggressive passes with regularity. Sometimes those backfire, but other times they also turn into goals. Unlike Coburn, he definitely has the creative passing in his game that leads to points.

Carle has 0.73/60 primary assists (second only to Meszaros' 0.74), and 0.91/60 secondary assists (by far the best on the D). Now, D certainly pick up some cheap assists, but Carle contributes directly to goals at a decent clip. Both his and Meszaros' numbers get back to the fact that the problem with them offensively really revolves around the PP (as is often the case with D, who really rely on the PP if they're going to put up high point totals).

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01-09-2011, 11:23 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
And yet the quality of competition is measured as the average relative plus minus of the opposing player. Plus minus which you decry as useless is itself used to determine this stat.
Plus Minus is useless without context. QualComp is context.

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01-09-2011, 11:24 AM
  #186
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And yet the quality of competition is measured as the average relative plus minus of the opposing player. Plus minus which you decry as useless is itself used to determine this stat.
+/- is only to be taken into context to begin with.

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01-09-2011, 11:24 AM
  #187
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what does that mean? Therian was a very solid dman for all but his last year and half here. Therian gets such a bad rap it makes me laugh.
There is literally no player that has irked me more than Chris Therien.

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01-09-2011, 11:26 AM
  #188
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For Mezsaros and Carle's lack of PP totals, I'm not sure if its a chicken or the egg situation. Probably a little bit of both... For some reason our PP as a whole has not clicked this year. I've been expecting that to turn around based on how good it has been in the past few years, but that time is running out.

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01-09-2011, 11:26 AM
  #189
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And yet the quality of competition is measured as the average relative plus minus of the opposing player. Plus minus which you decry as useless is itself used to determine this stat.
There is a HUGE difference between an individual player's +/- and a pooled average as far as statistical weight.

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01-09-2011, 11:27 AM
  #190
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There is literally no player that has irked me more than Chris Therien.
not even Jones?

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01-09-2011, 11:28 AM
  #191
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what does that mean? Therian was a very solid dman for all but his last year and half here. Therian gets such a bad rap it makes me laugh.
Therien was horrible. When he was drafted, he was a big, mobile defenseman that could also contribute offensively. He was supposed to be the new wave of defensemen that could be mean and hit hard, but be an offensive catalyst as well.

Instead, Therien was the most mediocre defenseman that has ever played for this franchise. He wasn't mean, he would only play up to his talents whenever Jagr was on the ice, and he always played hot potato with the puck. He was a horrible defender.

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01-09-2011, 11:28 AM
  #192
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QualComp and QualTeam (or whatever abbrev they use) are the context.

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01-09-2011, 11:29 AM
  #193
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For Mezsaros and Carle's lack of PP totals, I'm not sure if its a chicken or the egg situation. Probably a little bit of both... For some reason our PP as a whole has not clicked this year. I've been expecting that to turn around based on how good it has been in the past few years, but that time is running out.
Interesting thing? Pronger is tallying at about the same rate when he's out there. We have a couple guys doing well on the PP, and a lot of guys well below norm (Richards, Briere...).

They had that stretch where the PP was lights out, but slowed down.

However, I'm pretty convinced a big part of the problem is the 2nd pairing D, as they are nuking the 2.5 minutes or whatever it is now that they are out there on the PP each night. They just don't really create a whole lot, and that constricts everything for everyone. Part of the problem there is that similar to Coburn, Meszaros isn't exactly great at moving the puck quickly in tight spaces under pressure along the top of the unit. He has a very heavy shot (which hasn't amounted to much as far as points), and that's about all he seems to bring to the PP.

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01-09-2011, 11:30 AM
  #194
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not even Jones?
No... largely because there is a big difference between pissing off a 14 y/o and a 25 y/o.

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01-09-2011, 11:30 AM
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For all the guys byaching about Coburn, he was one of the guys who elevated their game in the playoffs. I cant stand Briere during the regular season too, but you want to keep guys that play hard when it counts.

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01-09-2011, 11:32 AM
  #196
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For all the guys byaching about Coburn, he was one of the guys who elevated their game in the playoffs. I cant stand Briere during the regular season too, but you want to keep guys that play hard when it counts.
Coburn got anally pillaged by the Blackhawks. Similar to our goalies, when he got out there against a real offense he got smoked.

I'm also not sure how 22GP 1-3-4 -2 is all that impressive. That's 15 pt pace, and obviously minus. Though, that minus was entirely the product of the Hawks, I think he got hung with like a -7 or something in that series.

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01-09-2011, 11:34 AM
  #197
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Interesting thing? Pronger is tallying at about the same rate when he's out there. We have a couple guys doing well on the PP, and a lot of guys well below norm (Richards, Briere...).

They had that stretch where the PP was lights out, but slowed down.

However, I'm pretty convinced a big part of the problem is the 2nd pairing D, as they are nuking the 2.5 minutes or whatever it is now that they are out there on the PP each night. They just don't really create a whole lot, and that constricts everything for everyone. Part of the problem there is that similar to Coburn, Meszaros isn't exactly great at moving the puck quickly in tight spaces under pressure along the top of the unit. He has a very heavy shot (which hasn't amounted to much as far as points), and that's about all he seems to bring to the PP.
Yeah, I definitely think they are at least part of the problem, but I'm just not sure how much (or how little). I think you highlighted Mesz's weaknesses out there quite well, but he still seems at least competent out there, and he's really the only new guy we have out there compared to last year. I think there has to be some other factors involved here playing a hand in dropped this PP so drastically.

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01-09-2011, 11:35 AM
  #198
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Yeah, I definitely think they are at least part of the problem, but I'm just not sure how much (or how little). I think you highlighted Mesz's weaknesses out there quite well, but he still seems at least competent out there, and he's really the only new guy we have out there compared to last year. I think there has to be some other factors involved here playing a hand in dropped this PP so drastically.
I think if you stuck Meszaros out there with Timonen, and had Carle and Pronger as the other pairing, you'd get a lot more out of both of 'em. Timonen can really handle the QB duties with just having a guy looking to shoot on his right.

Of course, in an ideal world I would rather they go to a Timonen-Richards, and Carle-Pronger setup.

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01-09-2011, 11:36 AM
  #199
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Coburn got anally pillaged by the Blackhawks. Similar to our goalies, when he got out there against a real offense he got smoked.

I'm also not sure how 22GP 1-3-4 -2 is all that impressive. That's 15 pt pace, and obviously minus. Though, that minus was entirely the product of the Hawks, I think he got hung with like a -7 or something in that series.
yeah he was -7 vs the hawks I just checked.

Coburn's career at this point is going to be as a 2 way minute muncher top 4 D man. Like J Bo, but worse

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01-09-2011, 11:38 AM
  #200
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yeah he was -7 vs the hawks I just checked.
Yeah, everyone talks about the third pairing... our third pairing was essentially Coburn/Carle with one of the other guys throughout much of that series, and Coburn was getting abused when he was out there as the "third pairing."

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