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01-09-2011, 07:48 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
This is my main worry. Eventually, Brown is going to skate away from the wrong guy and someone else on the Kings is going to pay the price for it.
BINGO!

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01-09-2011, 07:50 PM
  #77
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And to the people citing examples of captains who don't fight.

I would also like to point out that they don't play same game as Brown.

Brown needs to own up and fight occasionally regardless of whether he is captain or not. The type of game he plays dictates this.

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01-09-2011, 08:48 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Norstrom protected his teammates. I remember very specifically that Norstrom went after Tootoo after a questionable check on Aaron Miller. When Tootoo skated away, The Kings went after Arnott next.

This is my main worry. Eventually, Brown is going to skate away from the wrong guy and someone else on the Kings is going to pay the price for it.

I am glad this has sparked a good debate and I think alot of people on both sides have valid points.

I was at Staples and when Brown scored that 1st goal, I leaned over to the wife and told her that people were probably having a field day in my thread.....lol

I guess I need to make a Ponikarovsky thread tomorrow
forgot to mention Matti in my earlier post, because it's a great example of what a C does. Matti wasn't a fighter but every opponent knew damn well what and what they couldn't do. Norstrom lead by example in play, hustle and stepping up for a teammate. DB can easily lead and set the tone the same way that Matti did without dropping the gloves. who has Norstrom's cell number so they can pass it to DB for pointers?

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01-09-2011, 08:58 PM
  #79
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I respect Matti and loved the guy, but he was not a protector of teammates. While he was captain, our players got run more often than any other time in the team's history. Allison got run. Palffy got run. Demitra got run. We set injury records because of the punishment we took. Matty could dish out great hits, but there was absolutely no fear of retribution from him by opponents. The guy fought twice his entire career for gods sake. Sure he was a tough hitter, but Brown can deal twice the punishment hitting that Matti could.

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01-09-2011, 09:29 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Honestly, it's a shame that the NHL has become so over-sensitive that Boll's hit even warranted a response. It was a good and legal hit, Brown looked alright, and he got right back up. Why did it require the same tired "rescue" action? Just felt Anze's response was completely unnecessary, and killed the flow of the play while the Kings had the puck in the offensive zone.
At the time of the hit, with the way Brown's head snapped back, it looked like a possible head shot (which even Fox commented on at the time). Replays after obviously showed otherwise, but at the time it looked illegal.

I have no doubt in my mind Kopitar thought it was a dirty hit and he responded. We all know Kopitar isn't a player to get into physcial confrontations, so it must've looked pretty dangerous from ice level as well. Sure a person can rationalize all types of things now, but in the heat of the moment, Kopitar took it upon himself to do something

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01-09-2011, 10:40 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Racer View Post
At the time of the hit, with the way Brown's head snapped back, it looked like a possible head shot (which even Fox commented on at the time). Replays after obviously showed otherwise, but at the time it looked illegal.

I have no doubt in my mind Kopitar thought it was a dirty hit and he responded. We all know Kopitar isn't a player to get into physcial confrontations, so it must've looked pretty dangerous from ice level as well. Sure a person can rationalize all types of things now, but in the heat of the moment, Kopitar took it upon himself to do something
Was he embellishing again?

As far as the comment about other players paying the price...it's happened before. In the link below, Brown's hit and run riled the Coyotes up and they were throwing em back at Kopitar for the rest of the period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzXEVG-35WM

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01-09-2011, 10:53 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
And to the people citing examples of captains who don't fight.

I would also like to point out that they don't play same game as Brown.

Brown needs to own up and fight occasionally regardless of whether he is captain or not. The type of game he plays dictates this.
Sorry, I agree with you most of the time. Just not here. Brown is not a fighter. When Brown makes a good clean hit people shouldn't fight him and when someone makes a good clean hit on Brown, Brown should not fight them. If he played like Avery then he should answer the bell, but for making a hard hit no.

Teams do not want their skill guys ( Brown is considered a skill guy) sitting in the box for 5 minutes. It throws off line combos and makes it harder for the team to score and defend. Take the Ducks game. Ducks are down and Perry challenges Simmonds to a fight. It took away any chance of the Ducks making a comeback.

Brown was on the Olympic team because is a leader (assistant captain). Not a fighter, a leader.
Brown gets the team a lot of PPs by not taking the extra penalty.
I am not saying he should never fight, but when he does he is going to lose because the other teams fighter is going to do his job and not let his teams skill guy sit in the box.

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01-10-2011, 12:06 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Kopi should not be captain.
I agree.

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01-10-2011, 11:08 AM
  #84
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Here are some videos posted from another site so I can't take credit for finding them but they illustrate a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hFEgEU1sII

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB6BcP3NpWA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVO1p6Mttg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw8GFe9v9U8
What exactly do they illustrate? The Oshie hit, JJ reacted because it was a high hit. Ott and Drewiskie was just one of those things. Malkin on Simmonds no one reacted with 20 seconds left in the game. And Bourque on Doughty no one saw what happened And Brown had his back to the play.

Why is Brown the only guy that gets called out? Brown is more valuable on the ice than in the box for 5 minutes over a clean hit. This whole he needs to man up and fight over clean hits BS needs to quit. Brown dishes out his fair share of hits as well as receives them. If fighting needs to be done theres other players better suited for that than the teams leading goal scorer.

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01-10-2011, 11:25 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
Sorry, I agree with you most of the time. Just not here. Brown is not a fighter. When Brown makes a good clean hit people shouldn't fight him and when someone makes a good clean hit on Brown, Brown should not fight them. If he played like Avery then he should answer the bell, but for making a hard hit no.

Teams do not want their skill guys ( Brown is considered a skill guy) sitting in the box for 5 minutes. It throws off line combos and makes it harder for the team to score and defend. Take the Ducks game. Ducks are down and Perry challenges Simmonds to a fight. It took away any chance of the Ducks making a comeback.

Brown was on the Olympic team because is a leader (assistant captain). Not a fighter, a leader.
Brown gets the team a lot of PPs by not taking the extra penalty.
I am not saying he should never fight, but when he does he is going to lose because the other teams fighter is going to do his job and not let his teams skill guy sit in the box.
Yea, I don't expect Brown to fight after every clean hit. Just like every other hitter in the league though, you do have to drop them once in awhile, or your teammate is gonna get it.

Remember that Perry "You're gonna get it" video? He told Datsyuk that Samuelsson was gonna get it for something he did...and that Pavel was gonna get it too.

Within the next couple shifts Perry absolutely ran their goalie in retribution. Go find it on youtube. Samuelsson is one of those sneaky dirty players and his goalie paid the price for it. Brown isn't a dirty player...but he is looked down upon for the diving and embellishment.

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01-10-2011, 11:34 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Yea, I don't expect Brown to fight after every clean hit. Just like every other hitter in the league though, you do have to drop them once in awhile, or your teammate is gonna get it.

Remember that Perry "You're gonna get it" video? He told Datsyuk that Samuelsson was gonna get it for something he did...and that Pavel was gonna get it too.

Within the next couple shifts Perry absolutely ran their goalie in retribution. Go find it on youtube. Samuelsson is one of those sneaky dirty players and his goalie paid the price for it. Brown isn't a dirty player...but he is looked down upon for the diving and embellishment.
Wouldnt exactly call what he did absolutely running the goalie. Perry went ass first over the goalies leg pads.

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01-10-2011, 12:38 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Why is Brown the only guy that gets called out? Brown is more valuable on the ice than in the box for 5 minutes over a clean hit. This whole he needs to man up and fight over clean hits BS needs to quit. Brown dishes out his fair share of hits as well as receives them. If fighting needs to be done theres other players better suited for that than the teams leading goal scorer.
You're right, guys like Scuderi & Handzus should also be called out. These are guys who are given leadership roles on the team and who aren't small in stature yet they aren't willing to get their hands dirty when it comes to scrums. Why are the Flyers so hard to play against? Because they have that family mentality of "You mess with one of ours, you mess with ALL of us". Sometimes, just playing on doesn't address the issue. You have to get involved in scrums and confrontations if you are going to win the mental part of the game.

And to comment on your "Brown doesn't have to fight cause there are other guys better suited for the job" comment . . Ovechkin fights, Crosby fights, Kovalchuk fights . . . these are players with leadership roles who aren't expected to fight. When your Captain is unwilling to fight for your team or teammate whos getting taken advantage of or being harassed . . . what kind of message does that sent to the rest of the team? "It's not in my contract or pay-grade to fight?" . . that's not the right kind of mindset for a leader.

We all know Brown can fight (Brenden Morrow was the last guy he fought in 2008). He's lost that part of his game and he doesn't care enough to get it back . . .

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01-10-2011, 12:45 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Yea, I don't expect Brown to fight after every clean hit. Just like every other hitter in the league though, you do have to drop them once in awhile, or your teammate is gonna get it.

Remember that Perry "You're gonna get it" video? He told Datsyuk that Samuelsson was gonna get it for something he did...and that Pavel was gonna get it too.

Within the next couple shifts Perry absolutely ran their goalie in retribution. Go find it on youtube. Samuelsson is one of those sneaky dirty players and his goalie paid the price for it. Brown isn't a dirty player...but he is looked down upon for the diving and embellishment.
Out of the top 5 hitters in the league the most fights any one has this year is 2. I didn't look any further because I was lazy. So I don't think hitters fight much. Now Perry is an idiot at times. If you are going to run a player you don't announce it. I am not a fan of the diving. I blame the refs for that. They need to call the penalty and if there is a dive they need to call that as well. Players copy what works. If they see a penalty shot that works several players will try it out. If they see diving gets you a PP players will copy that as well.

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01-10-2011, 12:47 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
Out of the top 5 hitters in the league the most fights any one has this year is 2. I didn't look any further because I was lazy. So I don't think hitters fight much. Now Perry is an idiot at times. If you are going to run a player you don't announce it. I am not a fan of the diving. I blame the refs for that. They need to call the penalty and if there is a dive they need to call that as well. Players copy what works. If they see a penalty shot that works several players will try it out. If they see diving gets you a PP players will copy that as well.
Those 2 fights you speak of are a very important 2. It just means that they take their medicine from time to time.

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01-10-2011, 12:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Those 2 fights you speak of are a very important 2. It just means that they take their medicine from time to time.
Brown has one fight, 2 guys have 2 fights and 2 guys have 0 fights so Brown is only one fight below the leader, he fight an average amount of time.
Also Sid one fight, Ov one fight, Kovy 2 fights so among leaders he is on par for fights.
The problem is not Brown not fighting it is the whole team not making other teams pay for stupid stuff. The payment does not have to be right away. Two shifts later will still send a message. Teams need to know that IT is coming, but not knowing when is even better.
McSorley didn't have to be on the ice to keep Wayne safe. Just knowing that he was there waiting was enough.

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01-10-2011, 02:07 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
Brown has one fight, 2 guys have 2 fights and 2 guys have 0 fights so Brown is only one fight below the leader, he fight an average amount of time.
Also Sid one fight, Ov one fight, Kovy 2 fights so among leaders he is on par for fights.
The problem is not Brown not fighting it is the whole team not making other teams pay for stupid stuff. The payment does not have to be right away. Two shifts later will still send a message. Teams need to know that IT is coming, but not knowing when is even better.
McSorley didn't have to be on the ice to keep Wayne safe. Just knowing that he was there waiting was enough.
that final point is part and parcel to Dustin Brown's problem... just knowing that he's highly non-confrontational is enough to be put on blast by a player only 5 foot 8.

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01-10-2011, 02:51 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onlyalad View Post
Brown has one fight
That fight you are referring to is the one vs Toews and if you remember, Toews was the one initiating that fight and Brown wanted no part of it as I remember . . plus, I think the refs broke that one up early.

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01-10-2011, 03:07 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Cutty Sarkn3ss View Post
That fight you are referring to is the one vs Toews and if you remember, Toews was the one initiating that fight and Brown wanted no part of it as I remember . . plus, I think the refs broke that one up early.
True but I don't know if the fights the other guys had were their idea either. I was just saying he fights as much as any other person that hits as much as he does and that the other leaders that people think fight don't fight much either.
Brown's job is not to fight. We have Clifford (I know it should be Westgarth but...) to do that. I would rather see Clifford/Westgarth in the box than Brown. Being upset that Brown doesn't fight is like being upset that Greene for not scoring. It is not what there are there for.

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01-10-2011, 03:16 PM
  #94
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Im on the fence with this discussion, because i think Brown should have done something when Kopitar was locked up. If you watch the play, even DD came around to cross check Boll in the back, but quickly had to retreat to get back into defensive position.

If your star (skilled) player is mucking it up with a goon...i would like to have someone on the ice whether its the captain or whatever step in and take over those duties for kopitar... (basically because you dont want kopitar off the ice for any situation.)

Do i think Brown should fight all the time? probably not a good idea, but he should stir the pot once in awhile. Greene cant fight, Mitchell isnt known for it...but they do it out of necessity.

which leads to another discussion all together...does anyone think that our D is too soft? We dont have any nasty mean Dmen who punish people with or without the puck. Just another thing i keep observing over the past few years.

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01-10-2011, 05:39 PM
  #95
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This such a non issue for me and, i'd bet all my vCash,..the front office as well!

Lombardi chose Brown for his qualities. We all know..good character guy, role model, and work ethic was to be exemplified. New era, a perfect time to rejuvenate the franchise..a young player taking over a young team. Concentrate on improving and learning how to win blah blah..

On the ice, the C is just a letter on the sweater. Team leadership is essential. Look how many leaders DL is drafting. Brown is no more at blame than anyone else. Hey, good on Kopi for stepping in thinking it was a bad hit. Just leave it at that.





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01-10-2011, 05:59 PM
  #96
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Brown may not fight much, but I can remember him running Ovechkin last season after Ovechkin was running around trying to hit everything that moved.

I kind of do look forward to the day when Teubert might join the Kings though. He seems to be a special kind of mean and nasty, almost McSorely-like.

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01-10-2011, 05:59 PM
  #97
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You're right, guys like Scuderi & Handzus should also be called out. These are guys who are given leadership roles on the team and who aren't small in stature yet they aren't willing to get their hands dirty when it comes to scrums. Why are the Flyers so hard to play against? Because they have that family mentality of "You mess with one of ours, you mess with ALL of us". Sometimes, just playing on doesn't address the issue. You have to get involved in scrums and confrontations if you are going to win the mental part of the game.

And to comment on your "Brown doesn't have to fight cause there are other guys better suited for the job" comment . . Ovechkin fights, Crosby fights, Kovalchuk fights . . . these are players with leadership roles who aren't expected to fight. When your Captain is unwilling to fight for your team or teammate whos getting taken advantage of or being harassed . . . what kind of message does that sent to the rest of the team? "It's not in my contract or pay-grade to fight?" . . that's not the right kind of mindset for a leader.

We all know Brown can fight (Brenden Morrow was the last guy he fought in 2008). He's lost that part of his game and he doesn't care enough to get it back . . .
And they rarely fight but you dont see any of those guys getting called out for it. Brown isnt a fighter and never will be. Its just not a part of his game. For all we know hes been told not to fight.

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01-10-2011, 06:08 PM
  #98
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Out of the top 5 hitters in the league the most fights any one has this year is 2. I didn't look any further because I was lazy. So I don't think hitters fight much. Now Perry is an idiot at times. If you are going to run a player you don't announce it. I am not a fan of the diving. I blame the refs for that. They need to call the penalty and if there is a dive they need to call that as well. Players copy what works. If they see a penalty shot that works several players will try it out. If they see diving gets you a PP players will copy that as well.
Brouwer has 1, Martin has 5. The top 3, Clutterbuck, Ruutu and Brown have none.

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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Those 2 fights you speak of are a very important 2. It just means that they take their medicine from time to time.
It doesnt mean anything. The top 3 in hitting this year have a combined 0 fights among them. If a guy is a clean hitter why should he have to take his medicine from time to time?

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01-10-2011, 06:42 PM
  #99
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I kind of do look forward to the day when Teubert might join the Kings though. He seems to be a special kind of mean and nasty, almost McSorely-like.
This.

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01-10-2011, 07:16 PM
  #100
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I kind of do look forward to the day when Teubert might join the Kings though. He seems to be a special kind of mean and nasty, almost McSorely-like.
Agreed

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