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01-10-2011, 12:28 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Doughty's been a better player this season, too.
um, err, ahh, NO. He hasnt, and no numbers nor statisical analysis you show me will make me feel differently. I watch every game.



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... All this says to me is "I'm biased" because you literally haven't the first clue of what either player did or does now to commit to their jobs of playing hockey for a living. I don't like the practice of making up stuff to discredit players, especially those who are looking to re-up with the team for a few years or more.
JJ's work ethic in the gym and for conditioning purposes is renowned in the locker room. DD has clearly lost that quick step of last season, and is playing himself into better shape. I don't like the practice of assuming people don't know what they are talking about merely because you don't know what is common knowledge amongst and around the team.

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... Again, I don't profess to know what goes on in their respective lives away from the games. I'm saying that Doughty has been the better player, this season as well as before this season. The gap between the two isn't as much right now as it once was, but it is still clear who is better.
Right, and others may so don't assume before knowing that others don't know more.
And no matter how many times you say it, it won't bwecome more true. DD08 has NOT been better than JJ THIS YEAR!

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01-10-2011, 12:38 PM
  #102
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I'm on the DIEHARD bandwagon. It's evident in this discussion who is having stats cloud their judgment and who is not.

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01-10-2011, 12:42 PM
  #103
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And you would keep him here forever.

Has DL ever done wrong in your eyes?

You and people like Tad call me Mr. Negative, has Lombardi ever done anything wrong besides "Waiting to long to trade Cammalleri"?
I said in this very thread that the extension he gave Lubo turned out to be a mistake. It's unfortunate that Lombardi felt it was necessary to include an NTC in the contract to get Lubo to sign it and it might have been a "necessary evil" to include the NTC in the deal since the NTC's seem to be in vogue right now.

However, having the deal done did make Lubo a more valuable asset on the trade market because the contract and Lubo were a known commodity. You seem to be the one that wants it both ways in wanting to tie the GMs hands when it isn't necessary. Lubo had a hand in what happened regarding the trade. Had he played lights out the season before he would not have had a problem.

I have never said I would keep Lombardi forever. I simply recognize the scope of the task he had in front of him and the progress made to date, while you minimize the task and don't seem to recognize the complete overhaul that has taken place from top to bottom in the organization. You want an organization like the Red Wings, but want it built overnight, or rather want all of the years the Kings spent floundering under prior management to count. Meh, I don't count that against Lombardi and I include the first one or two seasons with him as GM in that as well. It took time for him to properly determine what direction to take the team and I am fine with the direction and the quality of the scouting and development aspects of the organization today as well as the philosophy employed to maintain that quality.

You on the otherhand if you had the chance would dismiss all of that without even giving it a thought which I just thinks shows how little thought you actually give to the overall success of the organization down the road and what it will take to achieve that success.

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01-10-2011, 12:58 PM
  #104
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You guys totally miss the point, no one is talking about the hockey part of the trade. I personally would rather have Lubo who is on pace for a 65 point season, but the hockey part is not relevant.

It's a manager who preaches player loyalty and then trades a guy who at the end of his contract would have finished his 13th season with the Kings, if anyone had a Kings tattoo on his butt it was Lubomir Visnovsky.

Now what Dean did was totally within the rules, no one is debating that. He had every right to trade Visnovsky. But if you are going to make trades like that, then don't make BS comments about player loyalties or tattoo's on their butts if you clearly are going to treat them like mercenaries.


Loyalty is a two way street, wouldn't you agree Sydor25?
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I think some of you take comments like the tatoo thing way too seriously. Lombardi is looking for players that are committed to being a professional.

There are always going to be situations where the most solid professional may not fit into the team's plans anymore.

It's not like Lubo is suffering. He is still making great money and PLAYING hockey in the NHL. Based partly on his performance the team (Lombardi) decided to move in another direction.
Ok, I don't want to go too deep into the past here, but this is exactly one of the issues which made me start to call DL the "The Shill." I don't think you can let DL off the hook with a casual remark like "you're taking DL's comments too seriously." Very few people like to hear themselves talk as much as DL, and he absolutely wants everyone to believe that what he says is exactly what it is. (otherwise he would be full of that chicken stuff you've all been talking about).

That tattoo comment wasnt casual or flippant. He was dead serious when he first uttered it to 500+ fans at the Breakfast with the GM, and he repeated it so many times thereafter, it became a joke around the organ-eye-zation. He wanted players dedicated to the team, not just the LA lifestyle. He didnt want players coming here to retire to the beach life or acting like hollywood movie stars (sound familar?)

It was comments like that combined with actions that flew in the face of those comments regarding players who really did WANT to STAY that made me think the guy was talking out of two sides of his mouth, and "THE SHILL" moniker was born.

Personally I have come a long way in my appreciation of DL's actions but there are others that I can never forgive him for. (Don't ask unless you consent to opening the worm can). But, along with Herby and JT (see, JT, I dont just take a contrarian stance to yours), I think it was a class-less, solely business based decision which made DL trade Lubo. But when you PREACH loyalty as an element of your team building philosphy, you can't just go and say (and act like) it only works from the bottom up. To management, your nothing but cannon fodder and you better give us undying loyalty. To me that sounds like the conditions which existed around the time the NHLPA was just a thought in the minds of Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey.

I can forgive DL if he brings success, but I can not defend those specific actions (unless I'm paid - its what I do) as being anything other than class-less and two-faced.


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01-10-2011, 01:03 PM
  #105
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Ok, I don't want to go too deep into the past here, but this is exactly one of the issues which made start to call DL the "The Shill." I don't think you can let DL off the hook with a casual remark like "you're taking DL's comments too seriously." Very few people like to hear themselves talk as much as DL, and we absolutely wants everyone to believe that what he says is what it is. (otherwise he would be full of that chicken stuff you're all talking about).

That tattoo comment wasnt casual or flippant. He was dead serious when he first uttered it to 500+ fans at the Breakfast with the GM, and he repeated it so many times thereafter, it became a joke around the organ-eye-zation. He wanted players dedicated to the team, not just the LA lifestyle. He didnt want players coming here to retire to the beach life or acting like hollywood movie stars (sound familar?)

It was comments like that combined with actions that flew in the face of those comments regarding players who really did WANT to STAY that made me think the guy was talking out of two sides of his mouth, and "THE SHILL" moniker was born.

Personally I have come a long way in my appreciation of DL's actions but there are others that I can never forgive him for. (Don't ask unless you consent to opening the worm can). But, along with Herby and JT (see, JT, I dont just take a contrarian stance to yours), I think it was a class-less, solely business based decision which made DL trade Lubo. But when you PREACH loyalty as an element of your team building philosphy, you can't just go and say (and act like) it only works from the bottom up. To management, your nothing but cannon fodder and you better give us undying loyalty. To me that sounds like the conditions which existed around the time the NHLPA was just a thought in the minds of Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey.

I can forgive DL if he brings success, but I can not defend those specific actions (unless I'm paid - its what I do) as being anything other than class-less and two-faced.
I would rather have a shill that does what is best for the organization than someone who follows every statement to every letter regardless of the timeframe they were spoken from, and hurts this organization just because he is worried about the public opinion of himself.

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01-10-2011, 01:04 PM
  #106
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However, having the deal done did make Lubo a more valuable asset on the trade market because the contract and Lubo were a known commodity. You seem to be the one that wants it both ways in wanting to tie the GMs hands when it isn't necessary. Lubo had a hand in what happened regarding the trade. Had he played lights out the season before he would not have had a problem.
This is a great point that I forgot to mention in my post. I was actually talking about this last night to a friend. I mentioned Brian Rolston and I was basically saying that players are responsible for their contracts in the salary cap system ALONG w/ the GM. If Brian Rolston was a UFA this summer, a team might take a chance on him for $1m or something. Instead, he has a bloated contract with diminished skills and now nobody wants him. So he'll get his coin but he might do it at the expense of riding a bus in the minors for the duration of it (now this is just an example because I know they put him on waivers earlier - I don't know where he is now). Same with Kovalchuk. He wanted his $100m, he got it and now he is in New Jersey for better or for worse for probably the next 10 years unless some team wants to bail out NJ which is probably unlikely. So Kovalchuk got his $100m but with that $100m he has relinquished any flexibility in who he plays for by virtue of his contract that HE wanted.

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01-10-2011, 01:05 PM
  #107
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I'm on the DIEHARD bandwagon. It's evident in this discussion who is having stats cloud their judgment and who is not.
Thanks -T. I never had a bandwagon before!

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01-10-2011, 01:09 PM
  #108
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I would rather have a shill that does what is best for the organization than someone who follows every statement to every letter regardless of the timeframe they were spoken from, and hurts this organization just because he is worried about the public opinion of himself.
I would rather he not have uttered such loosely fitting statements in the first instance. And leave it to one attorney to hoist another on his own petard!

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01-10-2011, 01:12 PM
  #109
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Ok, I don't want to go too deep into the past here, but this is exactly one of the issues which made start to call DL the "The Shill." I don't think you can let DL off the hook with a casual remark like "you're taking DL's comments too seriously." Very few people like to hear themselves talk as much as DL, and we absolutely wants everyone to believe that what he says is what it is. (otherwise he would be full of that chicken stuff you're all talking about).

That tattoo comment wasnt casual or flippant. He was dead serious when he first uttered it to 500+ fans at the Breakfast with the GM, and he repeated it so many times thereafter, it became a joke around the organ-eye-zation. He wanted players dedicated to the team, not just the LA lifestyle. He didnt want players coming here to retire to the beach life or acting like hollywood movie stars (sound familar?)

It was comments like that combined with actions that flew in the face of those comments regarding players who really did WANT to STAY that made me think the guy was talking out of two sides of his mouth, and "THE SHILL" moniker was born.

Personally I have come a long way in my appreciation of DL's actions but there are others that I can never forgive him for. (Don't ask unless you consent to opening the worm can). But, along with Herby and JT (see, JT, I dont just take a contrarian stance to yours), I think it was a class-less, solely business based decision which made DL trade Lubo. But when you PREACH loyalty as an element of your team building philosphy, you can't just go and say (and act like) it only works from the bottom up. To management, your nothing but cannon fodder and you better give us undying loyalty. To me that sounds like the conditions which existed around the time the NHLPA was just a thought in the minds of Ted Lindsay and Doug Harvey.

I can forgive DL if he brings success, but I can not defend those specific actions (unless I'm paid - its what I do) as being anything other than class-less and two-faced.
Lombardi talks a lot and obviously exaggerates plenty. I'm not going to defend that. Would he like to have a team full of guys that have been together for 5 or 6 years and have a tatoo on their ass? Sure. Is it possible? Probably not.

I am sure he regrets the personal angst Lubo probably feels for the Kings organization. Visnovsky should recognize and take responsibility for forcing Lombardi's hand. It would have been foolish of Dean to have that contract on the books for five years given Lubo's poor performance the season before and the plans Dean had for the upcoming draft and the decisioin to re-build in general.

I think even more than loyalty Dean preaches to the players to be professionals, to come prepared and work hard in the preparation portion of the job. Of course he does this in the context of being a Los Angeles King, that's his job as GM.

Sounds to me like JJ has bought what Dean is selling, and we both know based on prior information that was not an easy sell.

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01-10-2011, 01:18 PM
  #110
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I would rather he not have uttered such loosely fitting statements in the first instance. And leave it to one attorney to hoist another on his own petard!
I see the argument you guys are trying to make, but I just believe that you're taking it too seriously. As if it was some unforgivable travesty that we sucked and ended up with Drew Doughty. The point he was making at the time was that the LA Kings needed to create an identity. We needed to create an atmosphere of a band of brothers that were willing to work hard and play for each other. That doesn't take away from the fact that this is still a business and no matter how much loyalty you have with an organization, sometimes things happen that may affect your place on the team.

Eventually your welcome is going to run out, a Modano will end up in Detroit, and a Chelios will end up in Atlanta. It needed to be done. We were second to last, there were hard cap numbers to face, we were acquiring one of the top premier young defensemen in the league, on top of already have two highly touted prospects in the system, one playing for us. Lubo needed to be dealt, and in doing so, it made us a better team.

It is a shame, and the circumstances were unfortunate, but just because a player is in love with the team, doesn't mean that things are always going to be fairy tale when it comes to playing out the rest of their career with that organization. If the team had played well that season, Lubo would still be a King. Lubo was still rewarded with, and is still enjoying a nice, secure contract, and he is once again enjoying the beaches of Venice. I think things worked out well for him.

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01-10-2011, 01:21 PM
  #111
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um, err, ahh, NO. He hasnt, and no numbers nor statisical analysis you show me will make me feel differently. I watch every game.
... Ahhh yes here we go again with the whole "I watch the games who needs the facts" take. It was a bit overdue, I think I last heard that line about a week ago? And I'm also overjoyed that Tony took his little shot at me, too; just wraps this **** topic up with a neat ribbon.

I guess if we throw out the numbers, we can make an argument that Kevin Westgarth is a better player than Anze Kopitar, but it doesn't make it a good argument, does it?

For the millionth time - I watch the games, too. And it's very evident that Doughty has been better this season. If you want to say he hasn't lived up to whatever expectations were set for him on the BB (30 goals? 100 points? +10000? World Peace?) that's cool. But he's still the best all-around defenseman on this team. My eyes see it, the facts say it. And do you know what the funny thing is? It's not even really that close, honestly.

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JJ's work ethic in the gym and for conditioning purposes is renowned in the locker room. DD has clearly lost that quick step of last season, and is playing himself into better shape. I don't like the practice of assuming people don't know what they are talking about merely because you don't know what is common knowledge amongst and around the team.
... Unless you're at their homes or in the gym with them or in the locker room with them, it's just hearsay and speculation and biases and rumours. Not interested.

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01-10-2011, 01:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Ahhh yes here we go again with the whole "I watch the games who needs the facts" take. It was a bit overdue, I think I last heard that line about a week ago? And I'm also overjoyed that Tony took his little shot at me, too; just wraps this **** topic up with a neat ribbon.

I guess if we throw out the numbers, we can make an argument that Kevin Westgarth is a better player than Anze Kopitar, but it doesn't make it a good argument, does it?

For the millionth time - I watch the games, too. And it's very evident that Doughty has been better this season. If you want to say he hasn't lived up to whatever expectations were set for him on the BB (30 goals? 100 points? +10000? World Peace?) that's cool. But he's still the best all-around defenseman on this team. My eyes see it, the facts say it. And do you know what the funny thing is? It's not even really that close, honestly.



... Unless you're at their homes or in the gym with them or in the locker room with them, it's just hearsay and speculation and biases and rumours. Not interested.
JT isn't interested unless he has personally seen such behavior or has statistical evidence. Why come to a forum like this then?

I can look up the stats on any decent website that covers the NHL.

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01-10-2011, 01:29 PM
  #113
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Well JJ is about as loyal a person as you are ever going to come across. Followers of Michigan and USA will tell you that much. Ask anyone who has ever coached this guy what they think of him both on and off the ice and no one ever says a bad thing about him. Jack going to the WC's after playing a full season + playoffs on top of not having a break for the Olympics tells you all you need to know about Jack Johnson. He was one of only three Olympians who went to the WC's and the only one who did so after playing in the playoffs. This is a dedicated guy who is going to bleed purple and black for the next seven years and hopefully longer.

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01-10-2011, 01:29 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Ahhh yes here we go again with the whole "I watch the games who needs the facts" take. It was a bit overdue, I think I last heard that line about a week ago? And I'm also overjoyed that Tony took his little shot at me, too; just wraps this **** topic up with a neat ribbon.

I guess if we throw out the numbers, we can make an argument that Kevin Westgarth is a better player than Anze Kopitar, but it doesn't make it a good argument, does it?

For the millionth time - I watch the games, too. And it's very evident that Doughty has been better this season. If you want to say he hasn't lived up to whatever expectations were set for him on the BB (30 goals? 100 points? +10000? World Peace?) that's cool. But he's still the best all-around defenseman on this team. My eyes see it, the facts say it. And do you know what the funny thing is? It's not even really that close, honestly.



... Unless you're at their homes or in the gym with them or in the locker room with them, it's just hearsay and speculation and biases and rumours. Not interested.
A lot of scouting and assessment in the league is done without numbers. They are a nice thing to have and throw around, but if you don't watch the individual you will know nothing about them. You can get everything you need from watching the individual without the numbers, but if it was the other way around, you would know nothing.

Doughty is quite noticeably a step or two behind his form of last year. He has been hesitant with the puck, and his decisions which have been questionable overall. He hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't been that top-flight guy from last season yet. He, of course, is young, still has the ability, and is coming along just fine. It is all experience under the bridge, but he is entering another level/stage from last season, and hasn't quite figured it out yet. His shots aren't reaching the goal, and he has stumbled a few times when encountering the new found pressures from the opposition after becoming prime target #1 on the blueline.

As far as Johnson is concerned, his conditioning is well noted through quotes that he is one of the hardest workers off the ice and takes his conditioning very seriously. It was mostly mentioned last offseason, and the season before when he was expected to take the #1 role and then fell to injury and Doughty took it from there. Quick has always been regarded as the best athletically, but Johnson has also been regarded as being right up there with him. Murray, Dean, Hextall, and a couple of players have noted this in interviews if memory serves me correctly.

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01-10-2011, 01:32 PM
  #115
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... Unless you're at their homes or in the gym with them or in the locker room with them, it's just hearsay and speculation and biases and rumours. Not interested.
You can't be seriously or Shirley

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01-10-2011, 01:32 PM
  #116
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... Ahhh yes here we go again with the whole "I watch the games who needs the facts" take. It was a bit overdue, I think I last heard that line about a week ago? And I'm also overjoyed that Tony took his little shot at me, too; just wraps this **** topic up with a neat ribbon.

I guess if we throw out the numbers, we can make an argument that Kevin Westgarth is a better player than Anze Kopitar, but it doesn't make it a good argument, does it?

For the millionth time - I watch the games, too. And it's very evident that Doughty has been better this season. If you want to say he hasn't lived up to whatever expectations were set for him on the BB (30 goals? 100 points? +10000? World Peace?) that's cool. But he's still the best all-around defenseman on this team. My eyes see it, the facts say it. And do you know what the funny thing is? It's not even really that close, honestly.



... Unless you're at their homes or in the gym with them or in the locker room with them, it's just hearsay and speculation and biases and rumours. Not interested.
Will it be any more believable for you if a well respected Board member in excellent standing is also aware of what I speak:

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You want to see an athlete that exemplifies endurance, agility and strength? Jack Johnson. I haven't seen it with my own eyes, but I have been told of his routine in detail. What I would not give to work out with him just one time. I want to know if I can make it through at his pace.
But that is just hearsay as well. As with most trial attorneys, I imagine I could likely figure out one of the 29 or so recognized exceptions to the hearsay rule to fit that info under and make it admissible, but still as long as you weren't there it never happened.

I guess the best way to analogize your response is that if a bear ***** on your doorstep at night, and you don't see him do it, you wont step in it on the way out the door in the morning. Good luck getting your shoes cleaned.

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01-10-2011, 01:35 PM
  #117
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JT,

I'm sure there are people with inside information about how these players train and conduct themselves on and off the ice. I can for instance tell you with 100% certainty that JJ is a workout warrior and total rinkrat, going all the way back to his days with the NTDP and through his stay at UM. You will never have to worry about JJ being out of shape or not dedicated to the game.

It's pretty obvious DD is not playing at the level he was last season. And there has been quite a bit of rumors about a perceived lack of work ethic, perhaps these rumors have legs, perhaps they don't. There have been plenty of stuff posted here over the years that has turned out to be true, plenty that has not. So really who knows, but I think KINGS17 is correct in saying that some people that post here may know a bit more than you and me when it comes to behidn the scenes Kings stuff.

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01-10-2011, 01:37 PM
  #118
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JT isn't interested unless he has personally seen such behavior or has statistical evidence. Why come to a forum like this then?
... Just don't need to go to the rumour threads, is all. I'm interested in what goes on on the ice.

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A lot of scouting and assessment in the league is done without numbers. They are a nice thing to have and throw around, but if you don't watch the individual you will know nothing about them. You can get everything you need from watching the individual without the numbers, but if it was the other way around, you would know nothing.
... Yep so correct, I look at numbers therefore I never see a game, what is Hockey anyway - do they use a bat and a ball and who's the pitcher where's the basket and when is halftime

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01-10-2011, 01:41 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
JT,

I'm sure there are people with inside information about how these players train and conduct themselves on and off the ice. I can for instance tell you with 100% certainty that JJ is a workout warrior and total rinkrat, going all the way back to his days with the NTDP and through his stay at UM. You will never have to worry about JJ being out of shape or not dedicated to the game.

It's pretty obvious DD is not playing at the level he was last season. And there has been quite a bit of rumors about a perceived lack of work ethic, perhaps these rumors have legs, perhaps they don't. There have been plenty of stuff posted here over the years that has turned out to be true, plenty that has not. So really who knows, but I think KINGS17 is correct in saying that some people that post here may know a bit more than you and me when it comes to behidn the scenes Kings stuff.
Secret video or audio recordings or it never happened!

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01-10-2011, 01:45 PM
  #120
Telos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Yep so correct, I look at numbers therefore I never see a game, what is Hockey anyway - do they use a bat and a ball and who's the pitcher where's the basket and when is halftime
Don't take it too personally. Never said you don't watch the games. At least, not this time Just reinforcing the obvious that the empirical evidence of observing a player is stronger than the stat sheet.

It is clear that you are arguing from an empirical standpoint, but many disagree with you overall. I would argue that Doughty has been better defensively than everyone else this season, but his offensive instincts have not been the same and he is noticeably slower.

Johnson has been getting his shots on goal and has been creating plays offensively. Doughty has been trying, but can't find the same success so far. We are still only halfway, a lot of hockey left to be played, and Doughty can easily make up those points.

I am hoping Doughty smooths things out, and rebounds the second half of the season. At least, as much as one can expect from an elite youngster defenseman, having an "off-year" of 40+ points during an injury season, on a team with an embarrassing powerplay can...

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01-10-2011, 01:46 PM
  #121
Cutty Sarkn3ss*
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Secret video or audio recordings or it never happened!
This thread is starting to create massive LOL's

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Old
01-10-2011, 02:08 PM
  #122
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Secret video or audio recordings or it never happened!
Deano's Rosemary Woods erased those.

If you don't know who that is go back to high school or Google it. I am sure DIEHARD remembers who Rosemary was.

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Old
01-10-2011, 02:19 PM
  #123
DIEHARD the King fan
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Deano's Rosemary Woods erased those.

If you don't know who that is go back to high school or Google it. I am sure DIEHARD remembers who Rosemary was.
Ah yes! The famous 17 minute Gap. [and a lot more as it later turned out]
As Nixon and subsequent video's have shown, Never Record what you dont want public.

Oh yeah, and ALWAYS QUESTION AUTHORITY

P.S. I also remember that Eleanor Roosevelt was a hottie!!!!


Last edited by DIEHARD the King fan: 01-10-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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Old
01-10-2011, 02:54 PM
  #124
Buddy The Elf
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The biggest thing I've noticed about Doughty over the past few games is his skating. He isn't skating at the same speed and agility he was last season causing defenders to catch up to him when he is trying to skate the puck up the ice. I've also noticed poor decision making with the puck in all zones. Doughty has not lived up to the way he played in the 09/10 season but I also think Jack Johnson has been better this year although still inconsistent. That is just my opinion. I don't have any numbers or the hockey acumen of JT Dutch to back that up.

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01-10-2011, 02:59 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
The biggest thing I've noticed about Doughty over the past few games is his skating. He isn't skating at the same speed and agility he was last season causing defenders to catch up to him when he is trying to skate the puck up the ice. I've also noticed poor decision making with the puck in all zones. Doughty has not lived up to the way he played in the 09/10 season but I also think Jack Johnson has been better this year although still inconsistent. That is just my opinion. I don't have any numbers or the hockey acumen of JT Dutch to back that up.
Sorry Buddy, Numbers, recordings, or it doesnt count.

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