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Has TMac Lost the Room?

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Old
01-08-2011, 10:02 PM
  #1
CommanderShepard15
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Has TMac Lost the Room?

Theres something wrong now and its not all DW's fault. tonight we allowed 2 goals. We still didn't win. it is inexcusable to lose 2-1 when you have as much offencive power as we do. This after we got shut out 3-0. This after Ryane Clowe stepped up and called out players who know who they are.

Sure you can blame Patty, JT and Heatley all day if you want, but it's a coachs job to get these guys going. It seems as though all 3 (and others. McGinn and Pavs come to mind) have just tuned him out and are no longer following his direction.

I do believe its time for him to go. I never believed him to be the correct coach in the 1st place. If i had of had my way, we'd of gotten John Torterlla as he seemed like the type of coach who takes responsibility, yet will call out players at anytime to make a statement. Look what hes done with NYR. Not for him their a Jersey like team.

We need a coach like this. Not one who will let players get off not playing 100 %.

See ya later TMac, dont the Shark bite yah on the way out

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01-08-2011, 10:03 PM
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Not good enough.

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01-08-2011, 10:03 PM
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Lol, Tortorella would've destroyed this team.

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01-08-2011, 10:05 PM
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01-08-2011, 10:15 PM
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This team was having similar problems with Ron Wilson. 2 different coaches, same problem. There are some common denominators in all of this: DW, Thornton, Marleau, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I think Todd Mcclellan and the coaching staff is part of the problem but he isn't the biggest problem.

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01-08-2011, 10:28 PM
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IMO i actually believe we were a stronger team with RW

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01-08-2011, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by PuckInTheNet View Post
IMO i actually believe we were a stronger team with RW
I believe you are wrong.

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01-08-2011, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by PuckInTheNet View Post
Theres something wrong now and its not all DW's fault. tonight we allowed 2 goals. We still didn't win. it is inexcusable to lose 2-1 when you have as much offencive power as we do. This after we got shut out 3-0. This after Ryane Clowe stepped up and called out players who know who they are.

Sure you can blame Patty, JT and Heatley all day if you want, but it's a coachs job to get these guys going. It seems as though all 3 (and others. McGinn and Pavs come to mind) have just tuned him out and are no longer following his direction.

I do believe its time for him to go. I never believed him to be the correct coach in the 1st place. If i had of had my way, we'd of gotten John Torterlla as he seemed like the type of coach who takes responsibility, yet will call out players at anytime to make a statement. Look what hes done with NYR. Not for him their a Jersey like team.

We need a coach like this. Not one who will let players get off not playing 100 %.

See ya later TMac, dont the Shark bite yah on the way out
LOL, of course it's not DW's fault. Get rid of TMac, ship out more players, but for love of god don't get rid of a general manager whose has sunk a cup contender in the span of a few seasons.

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01-08-2011, 10:40 PM
  #9
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Fire 'em


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01-08-2011, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
LOL, of course it's not DW's fault. Get rid of TMac, ship out more players, but for love of god don't get rid of a general manager whose has sunk a cup contender in the span of a few seasons.
To be fair, he built that cup contender.

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01-08-2011, 10:52 PM
  #11
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To be fair, he built that cup contender.
Built is being extremely generous.

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01-08-2011, 11:00 PM
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This is an upshot of more than the last off-season. It is in part a cascade of players moves, premature contract signings and ill-advised contracts. Part is a cascade of motivational issues. Part is an issue of underperforming or inadequate secondary players. There are lots of parts and there is NO simple answer or solution.

It is possible that TM has lost or is losing the room. If a team is presented with a plan that is ineffective, the players are smart enough not to internalize the blame. It is scary when I hear "consistency" repeated over and over because it sounds a lot like "perfection" which is an impossible goal. As a coach you should set goals that are reachable. If the plan isn't working and you say it is entirely because the players are not executing or are not consistent, that is a huge excuse argument from the coaches for their own shortcomings. It will end up in a lost room.

IMO, the plan changed. JT's offensive play is dramatically different. There is a whole lot of triangle offense, and it isn't working. I don't know that the players are rebelling against the plan but they may be the wrong players for the plan. They are playing a 1-1-2 PK and are failing vs last year. 1-1-2 is an answer to Detroit; it isn't terribly effective vs. the rest of the league.

For those who want to lash out by bringing in a Tortorella or a Keenan, you are reactionary. The upshot of that is going to be an absolutely shredded team where the recovery could easily take a decade or longer. Same thing goes for a quick trade or off-loading of those "underperformers". Some of those guys may actually be the answer that no one is recognizing and a trade for trade's sake is very likely to further sink the team by removing one of them. One guy having motivational issues in the room will not sink the team like this; it is more than one. If you are trading to fix motivation, plan on a house cleaning and a loooonnnnnggggg recovery.

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01-08-2011, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Artful_Dodger View Post
Built is being extremely generous.
DW built the team under a set of circumstances. He has espoused some ideals which generally fall short of the finish line. I would like to hear him change those ideals before I come down with an opinion of his fate. No change, he needs the axe. It is not the guy who lands the biggest name in a trade who wins. It is the guy who ends up truly improving the whole team who wins.

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01-08-2011, 11:20 PM
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Over reaction much? Team is pressing right now, they will come out of it.

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01-08-2011, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SharksAddict View Post
Over reaction much? Team is pressing right now, they will come out of it.
I agree that they will come out of the current slump. I do worry that some reactionary things will be said or moves made that make them less of a team on the other side of the slump.

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01-09-2011, 12:15 AM
  #16
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I don't think he's lost the room as i'm not sure he's ever had it. Lots of talk about players haveing to motivate themselves... This means Tmac and co. don't do much in this area as a coaching staff - it's not his style or one that is popular in with NHL coaches at this time. He probally needs to really kick some ass once in a while to get players attention, etc.

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01-09-2011, 12:32 AM
  #17
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No, I don't think TMac has lost the room.

He coached the team to the playoffs twice finishing #1 in western conference standings, and you guys think he lost the room? God damn you guys are really reaching out there.

Inconsistant is right. No excuses there. I don't know what the hell you guys want TMac to do. You guys really think he hasn't and isn't kicking anyone in the ass in the locker room?

If there is any evidence that the problem is with the players themselves, you guys need to look at last year with the whole Setoguchi problem. TMac said they tried hugging him, they tried talking to him, they tried kicking him, they tried everything, but they couldn't get him to respond.

TMac didn't lose the room, Yawney probably did.

Tonight, I think they simply ran into a good goaltender whos been on a good run. Rinne is legit.

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01-09-2011, 12:39 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
No, I don't think TMac has lost the room.

He coached the team to the playoffs twice finishing #1 in western conference standings, and you guys think he lost the room? God damn you guys are really reaching out there.

Inconsistant is right. No excuses there. I don't know what the hell you guys want TMac to do. You guys really think he hasn't and isn't kicking anyone in the ass in the locker room?

If there is any evidence that the problem is with the players themselves, you guys need to look at last year with the whole Setoguchi problem. TMac said they tried hugging him, they tried talking to him, they tried kicking him, they tried everything, but they couldn't get him to respond.

TMac didn't lose the room, Yawney probably did.

Tonight, I think they simply ran into a good goaltender whos been on a good run. Rinne is legit.
I wish TMac would tell DW, "Get me another ****ing top 4 defenseman god damn it!!"

But yeah tonight was just running into a hot goalie on a hot team. If the Sharks had been on their 09-10 pace or 08-09 pace, this loss wouldn't mean crap. But the slump is why people are overreacting. If the Sharks can go on a run where they only allow 2 goals or less a game, they'll be in good shape.

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01-09-2011, 12:43 AM
  #19
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I don't blame T-Mac that much. I do think the system he is trying to implement may not suit the Sharks the best. But I suspect that's at least in part due to the fact that the system he is trying to implement requires players with different talents.

I do continue to blame Doug Wilson though. He's made a significant number of bone-headed moves over the years. But most importantly, he's build a "leadership group" which consists almost entirely of players who just don't know what it means to put up a consistent level of effort and when (and how) to step up their games when needed. The Sharks could have gotten away with having two of JT, Patty, Heater, and Boyle (who tries to do too much, and who also doesn't seem to accept problems very well). But having 3 guys who can't show the younger guys who to play by example, and one guy who goes too much in the opposite direction, is a recipe for what we have. Like it not, IMO two of those 4 need to go.

More time needs to be spent focusing on developing players (at both the AHL and NHL level). Younger players need to be coached and developed to not only improve their playing skills (which Setoguchi has done a ton of the last 2 years) but also how to improve the mental skills that are needed for relatively consistent play (which Seto, McGinn, Mitchell, and even Pavs to some degree don't seem to be getting). But it's hard to internalize playing with consistent effort (if not consistent results) when the highest paid players on your team, who are the de facto leaders, can't play consistently to save their lives.

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01-09-2011, 12:45 AM
  #20
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This is really more my overall current thoughts, only some of which are directly on topic.

The current Sharks are basically average in the league in goals for, goals against, and save percentage. In other words, statistically they are just an average team without any obvious strengths or weaknesses. With the loss of Nabby and Blake many suspected the defense and goal tending would be weak, but while they aren't great they aren't terrible either. It's easier to blame the offense that was expected to be great and isn't, but with Pavs out and increased roles for players like McGinn, Couture, Mitchell, Setoguchi, etc. (with various degrees of success) it's not that surprising either.

From my perspective, the basic questions are whether by then end of the season the offense (more than one line) can click,whether the defense (with a possible deadline addition) can become above average, and whether the goaltending is adequate. I'm actually optimisitic, I think the D and GT are learning to be OK, and the stars on offense just don't care about the regular season anymore, but will turn it up when it matters. I could be terribly wrong and the Sharks might just be a mediocre team that'll barely make or miss the playoffs, and do nothing if they make it.

If the worst happens, how much is DW's fault? That seems hard to judge. Most of his trades have looked good. Erhoff the obvious (to me) exception, but I have the impression the coaching staff was down on him, and I'd expect DW to trust their judgment. The signings are more suspicious, but not in a consistent way. People on the boards have been complaining about the D for a long time - there was a lot of complaining about how much Blake was paid, and now everyone is complaining about how we didn't replace such an important part. I'm not willing to blame DW for not getting a great D-man out of UFA, that's a crap shoot and we don't know who was offered what. The Wallin deal does seem odd, hard to explain as anything other than a gamble that didn't pay off or sticking to some unwritten deal that somehow required he overpay.

So if DW has been above average, and the team is only OK, does the blame go to Tmac (or maybe somehow to RW)? Or to the players that were relied on as the core all along (Patty, Joe, Boyle)? Maybe I'm just too trusting, but I'd say none of the above. I think the Sharks had a good, possibly great, team and took several gambles at winning the cup that were good gambles when they were made. A bit of bad luck ( and the simple fact that only one team in 30 can win any given year ) means they failed. If you count the number of teams who haven't won a cup in the period when the Sharks were competitive you'll see how normal that is.

At some point they need to decide that the prospect pool and picks have been depleted enough that there's no one coming up, and that the core is too old for a real shot - that'll mean all the gambles have failed and it's time to rebuild in earnest. I don't think that was this season, but it does help if you can decide to rebuild before that's what the league expects, so you can get more value from your stars.

I suspect, no matter how bad it gets this year, that there's enough talent on this team to try again with only minor changes in 2011-12. If that fails, I expect major changes at the trade deadline or in the summer of 2012.

Anyway, maybe I shouldn't post after the amount of beer needed for the Nashville game, but that's how I see things now. Overall, as a fan, I feel a bit spoiled with the success the team has had, there are at least 25 other teams that have had less success since the lockout. I am getting depressed about the way all that hope has failed to win it all, and the chances are not looking as good going forward.

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01-09-2011, 12:46 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
I wish TMac would tell DW, "Get me another ****ing top 4 defenseman god damn it!!"

But yeah tonight was just running into a hot goalie on a hot team. If the Sharks had been on their 09-10 pace or 08-09 pace, this loss wouldn't mean crap. But the slump is why people are overreacting. If the Sharks can go on a run where they only allow 2 goals or less a game, they'll be in good shape.
It's not a defense issue. It hasn't been for most of the season. It's an issue that the Sharks offense has largely stopped. The Sharks are not getting time in the offensive zone. When they get the puck into the offensive zone, the either turn it over, or just circle around the perimeter taking outside shots. A Top-4 would help, but you could add Lidstrom to this team and with the way most of the forwards are playing it wouldn't make a difference.

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01-09-2011, 12:47 AM
  #22
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Massive overreaction and the most common overreaction by Sharks fans: Blame the coach. Every time the Sharks go through a slump, it's the coaches fault.

Perhaps it's the players fault? Maybe they just refuse to let themselves be coached. Even then, they didn't play bad tonight by any means. They actually showed a spark of their previous years selves.

DW is a fine GM when it comes to trading, almost can't be beat, but he also has himself set in the 'Win Now' mode, as the Sharks core is getting older, making him feel as those he needs to sacrifice certain things in order to bring in more stars. As we all know, he sacrificed defense over the last couple seasons for his cause and now it's biting the Sharks. Nabby had to go, that was too much to spend on a goalie, so we all saw the drop in goaltending as well.

This is just gonna be a down year, we have to accept that. The Sharks will still make the playoffs, maybe they'll catch fire, maybe DW will make a trade for D or something. Calling for McLellan's head, DW's head, pointless right now.

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01-09-2011, 12:51 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
It's not a defense issue. It hasn't been for most of the season. It's an issue that the Sharks offense has largely stopped. The Sharks are not getting time in the offensive zone. When they get the puck into the offensive zone, the either turn it over, or just circle around the perimeter taking outside shots. A Top-4 would help, but you could add Lidstrom to this team and with the way most of the forwards are playing it wouldn't make a difference.
Defense is definitely an issue. It leads to goals, offensive breakouts. Sharks don't have much in the way of players who are GOOD at getting the puck in the defensive zone and moving it up ice.

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01-09-2011, 12:57 AM
  #24
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Defense is definitely an issue. It leads to goals, offensive breakouts. Sharks don't have much in the way of players who are GOOD at getting the puck in the defensive zone and moving it up ice.
Yet they have been getting the puck up the ice all year. The problem has been turn-overs at their blue line (caused by both the D and the forwards); turnovers at the offensive blue line (caused almost exclusively by forwards); turnovers in the offensive zone (caused almost exclusively by Heatley and Thornton thinking they can deke through 3 defenders by themselves, plus the other forwards ); dump and chase into the offensive zone but not getting any forward support to the guy getting the puck, if anyone even makes it there (again, pretty much all on the forwards); and a whole freaking bunch of perimeter play if they do manage to get it into the offensive zone and play for a little while (again, nearly all on the forwards).

The defense has had issues getting the puck out of their zone, but if you watch the games carefully, that's only about 20% of the issue at most. Almost every other issue is due to the forwards not playing offense well. That's why both Clowe and Couture are the exceptions. They both manage to carry the puck into the zone and keep control of it long enough to cycle and get some folks around the net for shots and secondary attempts.

Yes, the D could use some improvement. Especially in puck carrying and passing. But the vast majority of problems this team is experiencing are due to how the forwards are playing. How much of that is due to T-Mac's system, and how much is due to a lot of players just not wanting to play with any effort is open to debate.

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01-09-2011, 01:00 AM
  #25
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If the worst happens, how much is DW's fault? That seems hard to judge. Most of his trades have looked good. Erhoff the obvious (to me) exception, but I have the impression the coaching staff was down on him, and I'd expect DW to trust their judgment. The signings are more suspicious, but not in a consistent way. People on the boards have been complaining about the D for a long time - there was a lot of complaining about how much Blake was paid, and now everyone is complaining about how we didn't replace such an important part. I'm not willing to blame DW for not getting a great D-man out of UFA, that's a crap shoot and we don't know who was offered what. The Wallin deal does seem odd, hard to explain as anything other than a gamble that didn't pay off or sticking to some unwritten deal that somehow required he overpay.
To be fair, the Josh Gorges trade was bad too, but if you want to play devil's (DW's) advocate, you could argue it was only a bad trade in hindsight. But arguing that means that at the time of the trade Rivet was a significant upgrade to Gorges that warranted trading a first round pick [a first round pick that could have been used to draft David Perron] along with Gorges to MTL for Rivet (and a 5th).

And you can make the case that DW gave up on Brad Boyes too early too.

And okay, maybe you can't blame DW for the lack of signing a UFA top 4 dman, or maybe even trading for one now. But as you mention, there is the Ehrhoff deal which is huge. There is also the inability to develop defensemen in the farm too. Eventually that blame falls on DW too.

For example, who do you blame for the lack of progress with Nick Petrecki? Besides Petrecki himself, DW.

DW's done great things here, of course: The trade for Thornton, extensions, trade for Boyle, getting Couture. But defensively besides Boyle there have been question marks, not just trades and lack of UFA signings, but suspect signings like Huskins and Wallin, drafting, and development.

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