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Has TMac Lost the Room?

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01-09-2011, 01:01 AM
  #26
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
It's not a defense issue. It hasn't been for most of the season. It's an issue that the Sharks offense has largely stopped. The Sharks are not getting time in the offensive zone. When they get the puck into the offensive zone, the either turn it over, or just circle around the perimeter taking outside shots. A Top-4 would help, but you could add Lidstrom to this team and with the way most of the forwards are playing it wouldn't make a difference.
I disagree on the defense issue, breakouts. I also think they have made some different emphases on transition hockey (slower) and in-zone offense. Those new emphases are not working out so well, at least yet.

For others, names don't win that silver thingy; TEAMS do. Bringing in names rarely brings a cup.

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01-09-2011, 01:05 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I disagree on the defense issue, breakouts. I also think they have made some different emphases on transition hockey (slower) and in-zone offense. Those new emphases are not working out so well, at least yet.

For others, names don't win that silver thingy; TEAMS do. Bringing in names rarely brings a cup.
Do you think defense is the primary issue, or a contributing factor? To me, it's a contributing factor at most.

I'm not sure what you mean by in-zone offense, since they seem to so rarely have any real offense in the oppositions zone. They may have time, but not much offense. Again, whether that is players or T-Mac it's hard to say for sure. But T-Mac in his post-games has harped often enough on their inability to simplify the PP, to get men to the net, and for quick passes. All of which makes me think it's the players, not the system.

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01-09-2011, 01:13 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Yet they have been getting the puck up the ice all year. The problem has been turn-overs at their blue line (caused by both the D and the forwards); turnovers at the offensive blue line (caused almost exclusively by forwards); turnovers in the offensive zone (caused almost exclusively by Heatley and Thornton thinking they can deke through 3 defenders by themselves, plus the other forwards ); dump and chase into the offensive zone but not getting any forward support to the guy getting the puck, if anyone even makes it there (again, pretty much all on the forwards); and a whole freaking bunch of perimeter play if they do manage to get it into the offensive zone and play for a little while (again, nearly all on the forwards).

The defense has had issues getting the puck out of their zone, but if you watch the games carefully, that's only about 20% of the issue at most. Almost every other issue is due to the forwards not playing offense well. That's why both Clowe and Couture are the exceptions. They both manage to carry the puck into the zone and keep control of it long enough to cycle and get some folks around the net for shots and secondary attempts.

Yes, the D could use some improvement. Especially in puck carrying and passing. But the vast majority of problems this team is experiencing are due to how the forwards are playing. How much of that is due to T-Mac's system, and how much is due to a lot of players just not wanting to play with any effort is open to debate.
Yeah, it is going both ways. The offense has been horrible to watch lately in terms of keeping the puck in the offensive zone and when they manage to do that, getting quality chances on net. But at the same time, the defense, whenever the other team put on a strong forecheck, our Dmen cough it up like they've been swallowing mucinex. Sharks defense is horrible if they're pressured. Throwing the puck behind the net blindly, throwing bad passes around or up the boards that fail to get out or reach another Shark.

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01-09-2011, 01:21 AM
  #29
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The problems of this team start and pretty much end with effort. A coach is part of the answer when the question is asked; "who's job is it to motivate the team." The rest of the answer is the players.

The OP is a good one because the things TMac would like to see aren't happening. And yet I see him taking the right path and not finger pointing like RW after a loss. He is gradually turning up the heat and the discussion is reaching a boiling point in the organization.

Remember last season in the second half we had an extensive losing streak as well. It takes games to get out of it and then games to establish a baseline of effort. So at this stage in the season, I'm still not worried .... a lot.

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01-09-2011, 01:23 AM
  #30
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The Sharks used to have the talent to play half-assed and get away with it. They don't this year.

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01-09-2011, 01:31 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedInFullerton View Post
Yeah, it is going both ways. The offense has been horrible to watch lately in terms of keeping the puck in the offensive zone and when they manage to do that, getting quality chances on net. But at the same time, the defense, whenever the other team put on a strong forecheck, our Dmen cough it up like they've been swallowing mucinex. Sharks defense is horrible if they're pressured. Throwing the puck behind the net blindly, throwing bad passes around or up the boards that fail to get out or reach another Shark.
The D has issues. I'll agree. But the team would not be racking up so many shots on goal all season if they were trapped in their zone on a consistent basis. Yes, it does happen. And yes, some teams are more able to do it than others. But over the last 42 games, being trapped in their zone has been a significantly smaller issue than their inability to actually score goals, despite getting tons of shots on goal.

The Sharks lead the entire league by taking 33.5 shots for every goal they score.

The Sharks are 22ndh in the league for even-strength goals for, yet 4th in the league for power-play goals (5 on 4) and 2nd in the league PP goals (5 on 3). That says that the offense for this team is completely ineffective without the man advantage. And again, that goes largely the forwards.

For both 5 on 5 goals against and 5 on 4 goals against (the PK), the Sharks are at 15th in the league. That says the defense is average, but at least getting the job done. The Sharks also allow the 6th fewest shots against per game. Now compare that to the offense above, and the contrast really leaps out.

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01-09-2011, 01:34 AM
  #32
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To the discussion about offensive or defensive blame, I am convinced no trade for a defenseman will help the team today, until they are ready to play.

Defense is a problem too though. TMac talks about speed through the neutral zone. We aren't getting that with the breakouts. If you don't have speed on a team, or puck-carriers, you have to make tape to tape passes quickly.

With a slow breakout, the opposing teams defense is allowed to set up in a 2-1-2 forecheck, clog the neutral zone and fall back to hold the blueline forcing dump-ins and high turnovers. All that effort up the ice limits zone time.

Better defensive personnel allow the forwards to cheat offensively a little and even our slower forwards will have extra space. But as I said above - none of it matters today because many of the players aren't giving honest effort. If they did game in and game out, it would be time to add that defenseman.

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01-09-2011, 01:48 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
Do you think defense is the primary issue, or a contributing factor? To me, it's a contributing factor at most.

I'm not sure what you mean by in-zone offense, since they seem to so rarely have any real offense in the oppositions zone. They may have time, but not much offense. Again, whether that is players or T-Mac it's hard to say for sure. But T-Mac in his post-games has harped often enough on their inability to simplify the PP, to get men to the net, and for quick passes. All of which makes me think it's the players, not the system.
In a sense, main. The effort to get the puck out wears out the offense. As others have said, the Sharks have never really run the team breakout which helps weak defenses (effectively confirming lazy). The change in personnel put a big dent in easy breakouts. Yeah, they get out and get shots but they aren't high quality.

An interesting idea would be to count zone entry and breakaway goals for the Sharks this year vs. last. Those are the cheapies that help to get to the goal totals that they have had in the past. Those are the ones gotten when the defense hasn't had a chance to setup. Any high scoring team uses thoses to achieve their totals. Some teams can only score that way (eg Preds).

The other thing is that JT has been running triangle, no half-boards. He did it with Cheech when they had their phenomenal years. Not so much recently, and it isn't working with the guys that they have. IMO, there have been changes in offensive play made by the coaching staff. The emphasis on chip/getting deep also cuts down on the number of times they get the cheapie zone entry goals.

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01-09-2011, 05:15 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
This team was having similar problems with Ron Wilson. 2 different coaches, same problem. There are some common denominators in all of this: DW, Thornton, Marleau, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I think Todd Mcclellan and the coaching staff is part of the problem but he isn't the biggest problem.
Only really in Ron Wilson's last season with the Sharks...but that was a very strong defensive team and Nabokov had one of his best seasons

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01-09-2011, 05:17 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by PuckInTheNet View Post
IMO i actually believe we were a stronger team with RW
because they had better D and Nabby was better..(as a regular season netminder) that was back when Jumbo felt he had something to prove..now he doesn't care offensively (or should i say his game is beyond predictable if there is such a thing


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01-09-2011, 08:20 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I agree that they will come out of the current slump. I do worry that some reactionary things will be said or moves made that make them less of a team on the other side of the slump.
Stop using common sense. If a team like ours loses a few games in a row, everyone should be publically humiliated and/or sacked.

Shows how spoilt this fan base has become with success. Hit a bad patch in form and this is the reaction...

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01-09-2011, 09:46 AM
  #37
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Sure, I'm frustrated, but I am not saying that McLellan should be fired or anything. Has he lost the locker room? Perhaps, but I have no information to know whether that is true or not.

With that being said, it just doesn't seem like they're giving it their all out there (I'm talking about in general). A coach can only motivate his players so much. The biggest motivator has to be yourself, and most of the players on the team don't seem to be motivated. That's on them.

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01-09-2011, 10:25 AM
  #38
sjshrky27
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Todd has not lost the room.

The obvious problem is DW never got a replacement for Blake, signed two horrible D players, add our top 3 having a horrible season so far, a weird goalie situation- and there you go.

Simple as that

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01-09-2011, 11:38 AM
  #39
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I'm not sure if this answers the question but my thoughts on the current situation:

The defense has been an iffy subject all season long, but I think what is hurting the team the most is the top three (Thornton, Marleau and Heatley) are just having lousy seasons. There needs to be a leader on this team, and there isn't and it's rubbing off on everyone else. I mean it seems like Couture is the only guy who has shown any sign of consistancy all season but he can't do it all himself. Heck, that line he's on with Clowe looks like the line that's been showing the most effort. The other three lines (Including the top line) need to shape the heck up and start playing with more effort. Right now they are just an underachieving team playing in a position they haven't seen for a long time. They have adversity and with all the parity in the western conference they can't just slide into the playoffs anymore.

As for the question, I don't think T-Mac has lost the room but I do think this team needs to go through some big changes. I'm not talking about signing free agents or the Draft, but more changes at top, which includes firing the GM. Year after Year it's the same thing and this year it's a lot worse than what it has been. The team needs a different mentality and I think it is time to start making some big changes to do that. Now I like Wilson, to a certain extent, but it may be that time where he has overstayed his welcome.

I'm not trying to overreact here even though it sounds like it. This team will get out of the slump, maybe, and maybe they will pull a SF Giants and catch lightning in a bottle for the playoff run. However, with what we've seen year after year, do fans really want to see the "Same ****, different year" routine again? I know I don't.

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01-09-2011, 11:53 AM
  #40
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I really don't like what I've seen from Thornton lately. He needs to watch some tape of himself in 2006. it's funny, back then he looked like he never skated super hard, yet had 125 points. Note to Joe, running around like a chicken with your head cut off doesn't mean you're playing well. Hold onto the puck, stick your ass into the defenders gut, wait, and make a pass. No need to run around your whole shift.

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01-09-2011, 12:39 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by sjshrky27 View Post
Todd has not lost the room.

The obvious problem is DW never got a replacement for Blake, signed two horrible D players, add our top 3 having a horrible season so far, a weird goalie situation- and there you go.

Simple as that
This. But I have a feeling that TM may be a contributing factor to the slump. The guy just seems absolutely humorless to me -- almost robotic-like with his sour demenor. It just looks like the team is going through the motions and not having any fun - they seem totally out of sync and looking over their shoulder. It's just a game for pete sake. Go out and have some fun and stop the hyper-self-analysis.

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01-09-2011, 01:20 PM
  #42
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Exactly! Why are we always backing out of the opponents end and not forechecking? We constantly allow the other team to skate it out of their zone, dump it in ours and let them beat on our defense. Hello, TM! The left wing lock DOES NOT WORK FOR THE SHARKS!!!

[/QUOTE]
For those who want to lash out by bringing in a Tortorella or a Keenan, you are reactionary [/QUOTE]

I can't believe I saw Torts' name in the same sentence as Keenan's

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01-09-2011, 01:29 PM
  #43
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I don't think Todd has lost the room. I think there are many key players on this team who are not willing to put a full 60 minutes worth of effort every night and that is what the problem is. I see guys like Jamie McGinn working his butt off every shift, yet can't buy a goal. Or Scott Nichol giving 110% on every play. Even Jamal Mayers is competing at a higher level than I expected.

Then there is Joe Thornton who is floating around, not hitting or making any passes. Patrick Marleau, who might be one of the fastest skaters in the league yet every rush up ice he stops and tries to dump the puck back to the point. Dany Heatley who just... I don't even know WTF he does on his shifts.

I don't mind losing if there is an effort put forth by the team. Right now, I don't see an effort at all.

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01-09-2011, 01:41 PM
  #44
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I don't think Todd has lost the room. I think there are many key players on this team who are not willing to put a full 60 minutes worth of effort every night and that is what the problem is. I see guys like Jamie McGinn working his butt off every shift, yet can't buy a goal. Or Scott Nichol giving 110% on every play. Even Jamal Mayers is competing at a higher level than I expected.

Then there is Joe Thornton who is floating around, not hitting or making any passes. Patrick Marleau, who might be one of the fastest skaters in the league yet every rush up ice he stops and tries to dump the puck back to the point. Dany Heatley who just... I don't even know WTF he does on his shifts.

I don't mind losing if there is an effort put forth by the team. Right now, I don't see an effort at all.

Solid post. There are just some guys that you just can't get to ... If DW believes more in the players than his coaching staff, so be it. But if things are going to work for Todd, he needs players who are going to buy into the system (and the pro-cess). Look what Atlanta did with Kovalchuk and the offseason ... I would have slapped myself saying this a year ago, but DW should talk to Waddell for advice. *gulp*

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01-09-2011, 02:09 PM
  #45
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2-3 years in, what exactly is the process. I might have an idea if I saw improvement overtime, but I haven't even seen that. This process that keeps being brought up is something I have a hard time seeing, so what is it?

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01-09-2011, 02:12 PM
  #46
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Kent Huskins has done a fine job and has been our most reliable defenseman this season. I will continue to repeat this statement to everyone who continues to bash this guy. Please really watch this guy play if you are at the Tank in person and you will see a solid confident defenseman who makes the plays, stays in position, and is carrying a solid +5 rating this season

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01-09-2011, 02:25 PM
  #47
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Let's not forget Pavelski has been out for this latest slump. I will agree the "in-zone" offense is puzzling at best. They will have long shifts in the offensive zone without generating a shot or a decent scoring chance. Whether that has to do with lackluster offensive d-men or whatever else, it is concerning.

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01-09-2011, 02:31 PM
  #48
SJeasy
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2-3 years in, what exactly is the process. I might have an idea if I saw improvement overtime, but I haven't even seen that. This process that keeps being brought up is something I have a hard time seeing, so what is it?
Every coach says it. Ostensibly, even with only a few changes, they treat the team as a new team. What was shocking was TM talking about familiarity and not having to start so much from scratch (so much for that).

There is a process in the sense that every staff reviews the prior year and sees what changes need to be made to address their shortcomings. In a sense, Chicago was a wake up call.

The following are some of the things that I am sure were addressed, starting at the outset of the season.

1. JT needs to shoot more, the opposition is covering the pass . . . always.
2. JT needs to move. Fast teams are absolutely shutting down his game and creating turnovers off of his lack of movement (big butt or not). His stationary game is on the end boards, not the halfboards anymore.
3. The style of play needs to be modified to reduce critical turnovers. That is the insistence on chip and chase, getting it deep. There is very little carrying the line and there are few creative zone entry plays that maintain possession (watch Nashville or Buffalo for some of those).
4. They switched to the 1-1-2 PK, initially an answer to Detroit. Failing versus other teams right now. Notice the lack of shortie chances (a byproduct of the system).

Part of the new team every year thing is that opponents watch tape. If they see someone else stop your team, they will copy the defense. It is imperative for all coaches, particularly those of contenders where more tape is available and more solutions are shown, to change up their system each year so as not to be uncovered by the law of diminishing returns on what was once successful.

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01-09-2011, 02:44 PM
  #49
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So I guess we should start calling him Slow Thornton?

ba-do-chee

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01-09-2011, 03:18 PM
  #50
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I've been saying TMac has been the problem for the last 2.5 seasons. The system sucks. The Sharks were winning in spite of the system. Plus they were benefitting from a lot of questionable penalties to the opposition in seasons past that is not being called this season. The Sharks should be scoring tons of goals vs being shut out 6 times (so far, season's only half over) and only scoring 1 or 2 goals a handful of other times.

If you really believe that a line consisting of Thornton (premier playmaker), Heatley (premier sniper), Marleau (premier speed and scorer), and Boyle (premier PMD) simply can't score because they're lazy then you haven't been watching the games. Should be Sharks get rid of all the other players as well? Don't forget that Clowe wasn't exactly lighting it up early in the season when everybody wanted him traded. And Couture has cooled down considerably. Every line has been stumped in the scoring department. If they want to win 1-0 games with thier current defense then they are crazy. Even crazier than RW's prevent defense late in games.

Look at the attached pic. Black dots are Sharks players and yellow is the opposition. This is what I see the Sharks do typically in the offensive zone. Let's use the 1st line as an example.
  • Who can JT (or anyone, really) pass to that's in scoring position? Nobody. He can only pass to the point or behind the net. Sometimes he'll try a cross ice pass to the farside D man and it'll get picked off. If a premier passer can't get the puck to anybody, what can the lesser players on the other lines do?
  • Can Heatley snipe from standing right in the crease? No. Has screening the goalie produced tons of goals 5-on-5? No. So why are the coaches still insisting that players screen the goalie and even asking for more players around the net?
  • Who's in the prime scoring (shaded) area? Nobody.
  • Who works to get into the scoring (shaded) area? Nobody. They play on the perimeter.
  • Who is there for rebounds that usually come out into the shaded area? Nobody. The opposition's forwards usually get the rebounds that pop out beyond the Sharks players crowding the crease. This is why the Sharks are giving up tons of odd man attacks. Expecting the forwards to backcheck from deep in the offensive zone is not realistic.
  • Can the D activate easily? No because the forwards are caught too deep down low. If anything, the D have to back out early at the first sign of a turnover.
  • The Sharks offensive strategy relies too much on lucky bounces and lucky shots getting through from the point. The skilled players are not being utilized for their core skills.
  • The complete lack of ability to score 5-on-5 with all-star players points to the coaching staff and not the players who obviously know how to score and are motivated to score since that's what made them all-stars in the first place.
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