HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Has TMac Lost the Room?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-11-2011, 12:31 AM
  #76
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,655
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Pronger already owns Thornton anyway.
Exactly. So they cancel out, and you have two centers that are capable of damaging the opposition - Couture and Pavs. If Thornton is gone, it's all on Pavs, and we know he is not mr consistency, like Marleau etc.

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2011, 01:04 AM
  #77
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I was pontificating today on if we did trade Thornton how bad would our lineup look. Then I kind of realized he really isn't our #1 center atm anyway.

Marleau - Couture - Clowe
Heatley - Pavelski - Seto
Mcginn - Mitchell - Ferriero
McCarthy - Nichol - Mayers

Boyle - Murray
Vlasic - Demers
Wallin - Huskins

It's really not that bad, and leaves us cap space galore to upgrade wherever we want. Still, its betting a lot on Couture, but at least we have someone we can actually even consider making that bet on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Well, now they are. Few games ago they were fighting for the division lead. But now take away the "best" player - can't expect them to play any better.
Have to agree with Dhye here. Personally, "if" we were to move one of the big salaries, i'd be for moving Patty's salary well ahead of big Joe's. And with Seto, I think he's well played himself off of the 2nd line as well now. He's grooming himself into nothing more than a solid 3rd liner.

19sharks19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2011, 01:05 AM
  #78
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,655
vCash: 500
Really? I'd move Heatley.

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2011, 01:10 AM
  #79
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Have to agree with Dhye here. Personally, "if" we were to move one of the big salaries, i'd be for moving Patty's salary well ahead of big Joe's. And with Seto, I think he's well played himself off of the 2nd line as well now. He's grooming himself into nothing more than a solid 3rd liner.
Oh I wasn't like suggesting it, just a lot of people were and I was just exploring what the team would look like without him.

Joe's not going anywhere, it was just an exercise.

I'd move Heatley, without a second thought.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-11-2011, 01:18 AM
  #80
19sharks19
Registered User
 
19sharks19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: T.O. to S.J. & back
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,905
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davidhye View Post
Really? I'd move Heatley.
Or Heater. But definitely one of these two before Joe that's for sure.

(Leafs beat L.A. tonight and, coming in pretty hot, especially the rookie Reimer, while our Sharks are so cold. Man oh man, if the Leafs beat us tomorrow night, I won't stop hearing it for a good while. Ron Wilson's post game interview seems as if he is excited about tomorrow, even called it 'ironic' that he'd be going for his 600th win against his old team).

19sharks19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2011, 01:24 AM
  #81
SactoShork
The Youth Movement
 
SactoShork's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 9,909
vCash: 3565
*sucks up pride....

Evidently not.

SactoShork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-02-2011, 01:39 AM
  #82
Linkster
Rebuildt?
 
Linkster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Coastal Sharkifornia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,622
vCash: 500
Well, McLellan won the room back for 1 come-from-behind glory ride against Phoenix tonight... and judging by the post-game interview he clearly wasn't very happy to have been forced to exert that much effort.

"We better find a way to bring it starting tomorrow... otherwise we'll be digging our own grave." And the usual "motivation really shouldn't come from me" line.

Above all, he doesn't have any more Stalocks to throw in halfway through a game...

Linkster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 05:42 AM
  #83
Le Rosbeef
Registered User
 
Le Rosbeef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
*sucks up pride....

Evidently not.
Fair play to you, Sir. I wonder how many others will revisit this thread and acknowledge their overreactions.

It's hockey - competitive sport has it's ups and downs. There will be plenty more in both directions.

I just wanted to add kudos for stating what you said because if more of us did that, these boards wouldn't make for such reactionary reading sometimes

Le Rosbeef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 06:10 AM
  #84
RainbowDash
20% Cooler
 
RainbowDash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Equestria
Posts: 2,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
Fair play to you, Sir. I wonder how many others will revisit this thread and acknowledge their overreactions.

It's hockey - competitive sport has it's ups and downs. There will be plenty more in both directions.

I just wanted to add kudos for stating what you said because if more of us did that, these boards wouldn't make for such reactionary reading sometimes
I don't have an overeaction here. I stated that Yawney lost the room. I still stand by that statement. There is a large difference between the way defense was played back when this thread was made, and the way the team is playing now, and it isn't the effort of the players.

RainbowDash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 08:23 AM
  #85
Le Rosbeef
Registered User
 
Le Rosbeef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
I don't have an overeaction here. I stated that Yawney lost the room. I still stand by that statement. There is a large difference between the way defense was played back when this thread was made, and the way the team is playing now, and it isn't the effort of the players.
You objectively re-read the whole of this thread and you don't think there's overreacting going on, or you personally?

I'm not naming names and this isn't a witch-hunt. I was actually applauding the poster who reflected on his/her own position.

To me, though, I find these threads come flying out of the woodwork every time a bad spell of a few games hits home and the vitriole is impressive. I know people get cross when their team loses but just sometimes a bit of balance wouldn't go amiss on these boards, I reckon.

Le Rosbeef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 09:30 AM
  #86
5H4RK5
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,689
vCash: 500
...............................if Tmac ever decides to go into the wrong locker room and divulge our strategic gameplan to the opposing team we are in trouble.

5H4RK5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 10:18 AM
  #87
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
You objectively re-read the whole of this thread and you don't think there's overreacting going on, or you personally?

I'm not naming names and this isn't a witch-hunt. I was actually applauding the poster who reflected on his/her own position.

To me, though, I find these threads come flying out of the woodwork every time a bad spell of a few games hits home and the vitriole is impressive. I know people get cross when their team loses but just sometimes a bit of balance wouldn't go amiss on these boards, I reckon.
Just because we've been winning again does not all of the sudden give Tmac a pass. He's consistently been out-coached in the playoffs and in tight games. He's an average coach at best coaching an above-average team. If a better coach is available, I'm all for moving on. That said, probably not in the middle of the season at this point (now that they have turned things around).

It's just as much an over-reaction to judge him off the last 8 games as it was to judge him purely off the losing streak. I'm looking at his whole body of work. I think his assistant coaching choices are poor, and I think he struggles with strategy.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 11:43 AM
  #88
Le Rosbeef
Registered User
 
Le Rosbeef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Just because we've been winning again does not all of the sudden give Tmac a pass...
...
It's just as much an over-reaction to judge him off the last 8 games as it was to judge him purely off the losing streak...
Did I say he deserved a pass?
Did I say judge him off the past 8 games?

No, in fact I explicitly stated that I felt it was an overreaction and that we needed a little balance on the boards - feel free to find the quote if you wish. By the same token it goes without saying I'm not annointing him king.

I get that you don't like him but my response wasn't a popularity contest trigger.

Le Rosbeef is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 12:05 PM
  #89
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
Did I say he deserved a pass?
Did I say judge him off the past 8 games?

No, in fact I explicitly stated that I felt it was an overreaction and that we needed a little balance on the boards - feel free to find the quote if you wish. By the same token it goes without saying I'm not annointing him king.

I get that you don't like him but my response wasn't a popularity contest trigger.
I was simply counting your comments, providing the balance you speak of. I don't hate T-mac, there are certainly worse coaches in the league, but I see him as average.

Lousy coaches can make great teams bottom dwellers.

Great coaches can make average teams champions.

Average coaches simply have no meaningful effect on their team.

That is how I feel about T-mac. He doesn't make the team worse, he doesn't make the better.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 12:05 PM
  #90
OneTooth
Registered User
 
OneTooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Jose, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 596
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Rosbeef View Post
Fair play to you, Sir. I wonder how many others will revisit this thread and acknowledge their overreactions.
An overreaction would be correct if the Sharks went on to win the Cup. This is what they're built for and not to just sneak into the playoffs. Just because the team has won a few games lately doesn't mean that things are ok. The times the Sharks have been shut out this year tells me things aren't ok. The only thing that will tell me things are ok is when TMac moves away from the perimeter game. Otherwise I expect to see the Sharks back at 35+ SOG and struggling with scoring and thus struggling to win games.

OneTooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 02:32 PM
  #91
RainbowDash
20% Cooler
 
RainbowDash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Equestria
Posts: 2,047
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I was simply counting your comments, providing the balance you speak of. I don't hate T-mac, there are certainly worse coaches in the league, but I see him as average.

Lousy coaches can make great teams bottom dwellers.

Great coaches can make average teams champions.

Average coaches simply have no meaningful effect on their team.

That is how I feel about T-mac. He doesn't make the team worse, he doesn't make the better.
*Looks at Sharks' conference standings of 09' president's trophy winning season and 10'*

*points to it*

And here is where you are wrong. Unless, you are calling the Sharks the strongest team in the western conference, and let me assure you that they are not.

Look, I still don't understand what the hell you people are talking about. Why is anyone blaming TMac? That ridiculous. So, because TMac decided that he was going to match up Pavelski's line against the Toews line, and Thornton was going to go up against Boland, TMac was outcoached? So, because Anaheim knocked the Sharks out in his 1st year, TMac was outcoached?

I mean, he certainly is no Ron Wilson, and I neither am I, but I know when its the fault of players and it certainly falls back on the players on both playoff exits. Thornton's line should have absolutely eaten up Boland's line for breakfast. They should have scored basically on EVERY shift they were out there. Hell, the Blackhawks even made line changes regardless of a faceoff lose, to simply get Boland out there.

I'm not even going to get back into Nabby's 5 hole softies every single game that pretty much cost us the series.

There is plenty of blame to put on the players for the shortcomings of the team since TMac arrived, I assure you. Not stupid Ron Wilson pointless blame, it is legitimate blame on players.

RainbowDash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 02:59 PM
  #92
Linkster
Rebuildt?
 
Linkster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Coastal Sharkifornia
Country: United States
Posts: 5,622
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5H4RK5 View Post
...............................if Tmac ever decides to go into the wrong locker room and divulge our strategic gameplan to the opposing team we are in trouble.
Crawford: "Gee, TMac, thanks for the lecture... Do you have any copies of your strategic gameplan?"

TMac: "No."

Crawford: "Want to buy some?"

Linkster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 03:15 PM
  #93
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
*Looks at Sharks' conference standings of 09' president's trophy winning season and 10'*

*points to it*

And here is where you are wrong. Unless, you are calling the Sharks the strongest team in the western conference, and let me assure you that they are not.

Look, I still don't understand what the hell you people are talking about. Why is anyone blaming TMac? That ridiculous. So, because TMac decided that he was going to match up Pavelski's line against the Toews line, and Thornton was going to go up against Boland, TMac was outcoached? So, because Anaheim knocked the Sharks out in his 1st year, TMac was outcoached?

I mean, he certainly is no Ron Wilson, and I neither am I, but I know when its the fault of players and it certainly falls back on the players on both playoff exits. Thornton's line should have absolutely eaten up Boland's line for breakfast. They should have scored basically on EVERY shift they were out there. Hell, the Blackhawks even made line changes regardless of a faceoff lose, to simply get Boland out there.

I'm not even going to get back into Nabby's 5 hole softies every single game that pretty much cost us the series.

There is plenty of blame to put on the players for the shortcomings of the team since TMac arrived, I assure you. Not stupid Ron Wilson pointless blame, it is legitimate blame on players.
I agree that you can't put all the blame on TMac, but TMac was outcoached in the WCF against Chicago for one simple reason: His insistance on playing Niclas Wallin and going to 7 dmen (And only 11 forwards, and hence not rolling 4 lines) every game of the series. I don't know if it would have changed the end result, but I firmly believe had the Sharks rolled 4 lines and kept Wallin out, as they did the entire Detroit Series and most of the series against Colorado, that they could have at least won a game or two and made it a series, which means anything could happen.

All TMac had to do was go with the same exact lineup as they did for the Detroit series. That's what a good NHL coach would have done: ride the lineup that got you there and took out the Wings in 5. But no, from the get go TMac had to change that up and didn't change back as we kept losing games in the series. You can't put all that blame on TMac, but that's a big point of contention because the entire Chicago series the Sharks only iced 11 forwards to get Wallin in there, meaning that Thornton and Marleau especially were double-shifting like crazy. Not to mention that the Hawks were running circles around Wallin.


Last edited by ChompChomp: 02-07-2011 at 03:22 PM.
ChompChomp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 03:32 PM
  #94
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
*Looks at Sharks' conference standings of 09' president's trophy winning season and 10'*

*points to it*

And here is where you are wrong. Unless, you are calling the Sharks the strongest team in the western conference, and let me assure you that they are not.

Look, I still don't understand what the hell you people are talking about. Why is anyone blaming TMac? That ridiculous. So, because TMac decided that he was going to match up Pavelski's line against the Toews line, and Thornton was going to go up against Boland, TMac was outcoached? So, because Anaheim knocked the Sharks out in his 1st year, TMac was outcoached?

I mean, he certainly is no Ron Wilson, and I neither am I, but I know when its the fault of players and it certainly falls back on the players on both playoff exits. Thornton's line should have absolutely eaten up Boland's line for breakfast. They should have scored basically on EVERY shift they were out there. Hell, the Blackhawks even made line changes regardless of a faceoff lose, to simply get Boland out there.

I'm not even going to get back into Nabby's 5 hole softies every single game that pretty much cost us the series.

There is plenty of blame to put on the players for the shortcomings of the team since TMac arrived, I assure you. Not stupid Ron Wilson pointless blame, it is legitimate blame on players.
I honestly don't think you understood a word of my post.

I am not blaming Tmac, in fact what i was saying is that he's just an average coach. He lacks adaptation and what I would call 'dynamic strategy'. That is his strategies are by the book and he does not deviate. He does not utilize his teams strengths particularly well, instead he tries to adapt the players to his system. He doesn't motivate, but he doesn't de-motivate either (that i've seen). He's just middle of the pack, and the team is only as good as it's make-up because Todd does not have the coaching ability to get them to play better than the sum of their parts.

He's better than Wilson, he's better than Sutter, but honestly that is not saying a whole lot. As I've said before, if I could have any coach it would be someone like Trotz. I firmly believe if Trotz was coaching a team with a better roster he'd have a cup by now.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 03:42 PM
  #95
SactoShork
The Youth Movement
 
SactoShork's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 9,909
vCash: 3565
I was impressed with the instant 180° he orchestrated against Phoenix.

And while I still don't agree with McLellan's one-size-fits-all approach to every game and every team, that turnaround demonstrated that he definitely has control of the players.

SactoShork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 03:43 PM
  #96
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,537
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I honestly don't think you understood a word of my post.

I am not blaming Tmac, in fact what i was saying is that he's just an average coach. He lacks adaptation and what I would call 'dynamic strategy'. That is his strategies are by the book and he does not deviate. He does not utilize his teams strengths particularly well, instead he tries to adapt the players to his system. He doesn't motivate, but he doesn't de-motivate either (that i've seen). He's just middle of the pack, and the team is only as good as it's make-up because Todd does not have the coaching ability to get them to play better than the sum of their parts.

He's better than Wilson, he's better than Sutter, but honestly that is not saying a whole lot. As I've said before, if I could have any coach it would be someone like Trotz. I firmly believe if Trotz was coaching a team with a better roster he'd have a cup by now.
Trotz, Tippett and Laviolette have consistently shown the ability to get teams to outplay their abilities. Part of it is their ability to adapt strategies. Right now, Tippett should give a nod to Dave King for helping him along recently. Sometimes ACs are integral to a coach. Boston had its best recent team with Ramsay assisting Julien. Lemaire and Martin fall into the category of being able to sometimes do it and they adapt their strategies as well.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 03:49 PM
  #97
hockeyball
Registered User
 
hockeyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 17,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Trotz, Tippett and Laviolette have consistently shown the ability to get teams to outplay their abilities. Part of it is their ability to adapt strategies. Right now, Tippett should give a nod to Dave King for helping him along recently. Sometimes ACs are integral to a coach. Boston had its best recent team with Ramsay assisting Julien. Lemaire and Martin fall into the category of being able to sometimes do it and they adapt their strategies as well.
Right, I think its unlikely we will win a cup with this roster without a coach of that quality. We either need to improve the team to the point that they are nearly unbeatable (Blackhawks last season) or get a coach that can get the most out of his roster when it matters. It's also possible for Mclellan to improve, and I think he has somewhat, but he's got a ways to go.

hockeyball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 03:59 PM
  #98
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,537
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Right, I think its unlikely we will win a cup with this roster without a coach of that quality. We either need to improve the team to the point that they are nearly unbeatable (Blackhawks last season) or get a coach that can get the most out of his roster when it matters. It's also possible for Mclellan to improve, and I think he has somewhat, but he's got a ways to go.
Right now, I want to see what happens with the Tampa guy and also DeBoer in Florida. DeBoer had quite the record of success with Kitchener. If he had a halfway decent team . . .?

Coach Q and Crawford have gone far with teams that are effectively run by the players. Babcock and Carlyle are the kings of matchups.

I do try to track coaches and get beyond the popular reputations.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 04:01 PM
  #99
ChompChomp
SACK T-MAC
 
ChompChomp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dallas, TX (Ugh)
Country: United States
Posts: 8,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Trotz, Tippett and Laviolette have consistently shown the ability to get teams to outplay their abilities. Part of it is their ability to adapt strategies. Right now, Tippett should give a nod to Dave King for helping him along recently. Sometimes ACs are integral to a coach. Boston had its best recent team with Ramsay assisting Julien. Lemaire and Martin fall into the category of being able to sometimes do it and they adapt their strategies as well.
Wish the Sharks would fire Trent Yawney and replace him with Ken Hitchcock. Something tells me Hitch's ego wouldn't let him become an AC at this point, but I'd love to see Hitch coach this blueline (And only coach the blueline).

ChompChomp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 06:15 PM
  #100
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,655
vCash: 500
Why can't we call this winning streak an overreaction? It can go both ways.

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:08 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.